Mallette Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 "BTW, have you had an opportunity to record in the Bass Performance Hall in Fort Worth?" No. I have the inaugural concert on DAT (remember DAT?). Superb acoustics considering it as a multi-purpose hall with the compromises that generally entails. Best hall I've recorded is an Anglican church in Lewisville. The return is about 3 seconds with absolutely no slap whatsover. The pipe organ is an absolutely marvelous blend of Anglo/Franco/American (several original string stops from Skinner) mounted in the rear. Oh, I miss that place...better acoustics than the Meyerson. Haven't found a happy place like that in the Houston area yet... Dang, off thread again. Argh, maties, run up the jolly roger... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallflower Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 mas-<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of this thread... It is not about, which do you prefer, tubes or SS? And it is not about, which is better, tubes or SS? As has effectively been pointed out in this thread, the "live" and amplified sound isn't necessarily always a good sound, but it has a distinct characteristic. IMHO that characteristic is most closely proxied by SS electronics (and Klipsch Heritage speakers) and I theorize that that's the case because nearly all PA systems are SS. Perhaps what could be clouding this discussion is the potential for really good SS and really good tube equipment to almost sound like the other. Let's exclude the consideration of really good/high end amps and preamps for the purposes of this thread so as to not muddy the water, because in addition to most PA equipment being SS, I'll be that a lot of the PA equipment we hear isn't even that good. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 "As has effectively been pointed out in this thread, the "live" and amplified sound isn't necessarily always a good sound, but it has a distinct characteristic. IMHO that characteristic is most closely proxied by SS electronics (and Klipsch Heritage speakers) and I theorize that that's the case because nearly all PA systems are SS." It's very hard to approximate the live sound with out the line transformers. There are folks who sell both transformers and autoformers for those seeking the to approximate that sound character. On both ends of the price scale, you have the zero autoformer's at 450 a pair in DIY form or 800 a pair in a nice wooden box and the AF-140 from atlas for around 100 bucks a pair. A lot of folks like Crown amps, but don't realize that Crown offers an excellent autoformer to convert the SS output to balanced line. The Crown model autoformer is CT-170, also for about 100 bucks a pair. The iron in tubes has an association with the distinctiveness of the tube sound while folks who have added iron to SS gear find the sound character to be different from unbalanaced SS output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Kindly explain, Herr SpracherFritz. Are you talking about converting from unbalanced to balanced at line level? I don't see how audio could improve by passing through a transformer (which don't mean it ain't so). Only thing I know of different from balanced to un is the impedance and the shielding to ground. The only difference would be RF/EMF induced noise in the unbalanced assuming some source of same were present. What am I missing? I recall you are pretty good at this stuff... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 mas- With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of this thread... It is not about, which do you prefer, tubes or SS? And it is not about, which is better, tubes or SS? As has effectively been pointed out in this thread, the "live" and amplified sound isn't necessarily always a good sound, but it has a distinct characteristic. IMHO that characteristic is most closely proxied by SS electronics (and Klipsch Heritage speakers) and I theorize that that's the case because nearly all PA systems are SS. Perhaps what could be clouding this discussion is the potential for really good SS and really good tube equipment to almost sound like the other. Let's exclude the consideration of really good/high end amps and preamps for the purposes of this thread so as to not muddy the water, because in addition to most PA equipment being SS, I'll be that a lot of the PA equipment we hear isn't even that good. [] A couple of aspects that while they may not directly answer your question, are nevertheless pertinent in evaluating your "live" sound. First SR and SS amps. There is GOOD reason for no one (to my knowledge!) using tube amps in SR rigs! Power availability, reliability, weight, current draw, reliability, microphonics, cost, reliability, ability to drive the low impedance loads, reliability, life cycle costs, remote control/drive by wire, even heat dissipation relative to truck packs. Even if I could find a tube amp that would fit for a reasonable price I would not use one in a SR rig! There are enough myriad problems to deal with without worrying about the stability of a tube amp that is being bounced from one end of the continent to the other. And we aren't even dealing with the union handlers yet! And the irony is that live SS amps ( Crown, QSC, Crest, Lab Gruppen) are among some of the best. I would love to see a tube amp survive long driving a <=2 ohm load. And how many KW are you pushing!? But although I could run off about SS versus tubes in the SR realm, the amps are secondary. Except for reliability and power, I would go so far as to say that they don't matter. Yup, you heard me correctly. They don't matter! [] The fact is, what you perceive as the "LIVE SOUND" has little to nothing to do with the amps. Live sound is dominated by several other factors that render the particular topology of the amps moot. And I will lump them all into a big category that I will label 'environmental factors'. Let's start with the first issue. How many concerts do you think you have heard in a room that is even remotely accurate acoustically (not to mention accurate at the SPLs encountered in a live concert)!? It is absolutely amazing how unsuitable most large halls are for sound. I can name several new halls that were designed with an intended attention to acoustics - which as the reality hit as the cost overruns mounted, and as acoustic treatment was the last thing to be applied, by that time the sharpie was crossing so many features off the list that it became dangerous to be in the same room with such a dangerous pointed object moving so fast around the room! And I can guarantee you that acoustical treatments were the first to go! Auditoriums are built first and foremost to handle crowds and to move them in and out, to provide concessions (e.g : revenue!), and to provide seats toilets (And if you want to see a really hot issue, its not acoustics, rather its toilet facility equity!) Oh, we can have the debate on how acoustics adds to the fundamental quality of the experience, and how it should be given priority, and...well, architects and financial folks hear this as something akin to "blah, blah blah...". And let's move beyond the incredibly bad hall acoustics. And we will even ignore the incredibly lousy noise floor that these halls entail between the reverberant field and factors such as the HVAC, and various other systems, in addition to the people who make all sorts of noises, making a SR rig drive the dynamics over and above this noise floor. Ouch! Oh, and that's right, we have fancy stages. Fancy stages that are either constructed of skinned scaffolding that resonants like a bass drum and has the resiliency of a trampoline. And thats not to even mention the extremely dense drum risers that are like large oatmeal canisters on top of the 'fancy stage'! Resonance? Here's a suggestion, listen to a live CD with a good subwoofer. And turn it up. On most, you will hear a LF pumping sound.And then you may hear the kick drum. Without a sub you will probably never hear it. With a sub you may be amazed. It is significant in that it is of a magnitude where the band might suspect that they have added another member. Its the stage resonance. The first time I heard it and realized what it was, I was literally amazed. Want to hear it? Get a copy of the EXCELLENT live recording of Jethro Tull, Live at the Hammersmith Odeon in 1991. And we haven't even talked of some theaters where the norm is to have a trap doored hardwood floor supported by a series of posts designed for access under the stage. Resonance? You betcha. But those drum risers! And even with in the ear monitors (a God send!), you still have drummers who demand a side fill that is easily as loud as the mains as they want to experience the visceral FEEL of the kick (and thank goodness for bass shakers attached to the thrones for the few familiar with them! ...no, not the commode, but that would be novel...) And no, a gate is not very effective when it's threshold is set at ~115 dB. Or...of the classic small club where traffic flow is much more important than the acoustics and you are in a large brick/concrete room with a few pictures on the wall with the stage oriented along the long wall playing to the short brick wall, waving to the patrons as they parade in front on their way to the facilities. And many of you will think that I am exaggerating... And of course most groups will use the classic widely spaced twin stack of speakers resulting in the radical comb filtering and polar anomalies so characteristic of a live venue. And once you become aware of the comb filtering and polar anomalies, you may find it rather amazing and amusing that so many of the regular concert goers are totally unaware of the very dramatic phenomena. And will you believe me if I tell you that the SR rig is not designed to be optimal for every room? Hard to believe, isn't it? And placement? Oh, yeah, after the acoustician walks about the hall and takes a few measurements and determines exactly the best place to place and orient the system....Do What?!?!? Oh sorry, I meant, when the crew arrives (and after the always fascinating encounter with the local unions - and sorry Chicago! The less said, the fewer the expletives that Amy will disapprove of!) and asks where the code approved fly points are to attach the hoists to fly the line arrays. Yep, they were designed specifically for YOUR particular hall! I can go on and on about this. But the bottom line is that if you want to talk about the 'live' sound, you are talking more about environmental factors than you are about ANY particular pieces of hardware. And when all of the factors are weighted, who cares what amplifiers are being used... All you will notice is if they are working and if they can drive the system to sufficiently raise it above the noise flow of the systems, and the very attentive 'quiet' crowd, and the atrocious acoustics of the hall designed to fit lots of people in for the evening basketball game and weekend monster truck extravaganza. Tell you what! That SS amp's multi-decimal point THD spec of .001 means allot in that environment! I wish that it weren't so...but SR in most halls is a brut force effort. {Welcome to the world of live SR. Gee, and we haven't even gotten to the fancy parties after the show. Don't worry, few ever do! Especially when you finally get out at 3:00AM and you are standing in the loadout in a strange city being approached by homeless folks as you stand around trying to figure out just where that @#$% hotel is (for a shower!!!) that some idiot in London booked as they were told its 'close by' - after all. its only "1 inch away" from the venue on an interstate map of Indiana and Illinois where the detail of Chicago that has a scale of 1"=25 to 50 miles is 'featured" on the reverse side of the map in a box that is all of 6" x6" square. Yup, Its all glamour! And yet so many can't figure out why so many artist's, once they have reached the top and can finally command large halls, retire from the road! Go figure! The truth is that it is because they can finally afford to stop the madness!} And all of that has NOTHING to do with what amp is used in SR. ...Except that I can guarantee you that no one is standing about debating why using a tube amp would be beneficial! What your speakers are doing is reproducing the dynamics of that environment. Beyond that, IMO, the difference between SS and tube amps used to reproduce that recording is simply a matter of your subjective preference. Various methods are used to record live shows, ranging from radical attempts to remove the room as much as possible from the recording while and relying as much as possible on DI feeds to the board and close micing with gates run wide open, to zoned area mics capturing the melee in all of its brilliance. But in any case, IMO, the amp is not the critical feature here. And the fact that SR uses SS amps as opposed to 'cans and strings' has little to do with the characteristic 'live sound'. Its the 'room' - the environment' - that dominates most live recordings (...with some notable exceptions, Dave!). [] OK, you guys can have the thread back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Mallette http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0603/midmonth/zeroautoformer.htm Check out the link above. The zero products have a pretty good marketing pitch and have a solid user base worldwide. A lot of respectable audio magazines have reviewed this product and have endorsed his claims. One thing to note, the zero device is an auto former. Folks like Atlas, Crown, have offered auto formers for impedance multiplication for decades and certainly McIntosh has been using then on SS gear for quite some time. If you bounce around the various websites about the ZeroAutoformer product, some examples of how the device fits in across the various audio topologies are discussed....SS....standard transformer based tubes...OTL, etc. I have a set of the Zero auto formers as well as a set of the Atlas AF-140's. I tried them under both SS and tube scenarios and have to agree that the sound character of SS / tube gear is greatly influenced by the electrical properties associated with how these auto formers work. I realize for some there are a lot of skepticism about these things but if McIntosh uses then on their SS gear, it's certainly worth your attention to investigate further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallflower Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 Thanks mas!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Your opinions about room dynamics and live music added to the discussion and remained true to the intent of the thread... Regards!! Oh and... the sky is black [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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