Sollid State versus Tubes

[DrWho]

It's just an illusion...

[jacksonbart]

,

[wallflower]

Mark,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I'm referring to live music that is amplified (e.g. presumably with some sort of PA system), as opposed to those rare occasions where you might here live music with no amplification (which is a different subject). Other than those of us that attend symphony or chamber orchestra performances on a regular basis, I suspect most hear live music through some sort of PA system. And I'll bet 99% of those PA systems are SS.

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I repeat this is not a question of which is better; I'm sure that question has been beaten like a dead horse around here. Try to remove any subjective bias you might have from analyzing what sounds more like live music. I fully expect many people on this forum would say they prefer tubes to SS, and vice versa, when listening to their two-channel system. But that's not the question.

[Mallette]

A few years ago I went to a Pops concert at the Meyerson Symphony Center in Dallas. It has extraordinary acoustics. The performer was Dizzy Gillespie. They had him on the PA. I left after the second piece.

I had season tickets and loved every performance until that one. The very idea of going to a fine hall to hear a fine musician and hearing loudspeakers instead sent me running.

Dave

[mas]

{The image should be here, but...just imagine it!}

ROFLMAO!!!!!

The topic is amplifiers and most speak of variables other than amplifiers. There should be some insight here, but.....

After this 'debate' is finished, where every term and variable is ill-formed at best and of which no two persons are speaking about precisely the same thing at any time, maybe you folks can move on to the really advanced topic entitled: "Vanilla or chocolate...Which tastes more like real ice cream?"

[Mallette]

Jeez, MAS. Doesn't take much to cause you to ROFLYAO. Put down the pipe and give it a break...

I know lots of place where one can discuss the war in Iraq, global warming, and what tastes like real beer? Ale or lager?

This is what we gather together here to discuss. There ARE differences. I run like heck from discussions of power supply filtering and the relative merits of 1000.00/meter interconnects, but I don't doubt there are those who both hear a difference and appreciate same.

I DO like these discussions and actually learn from them. Sometimes I learn nothing but patience and a willingness to give credibility to another's point of view. Gosh, come to think of it, those might be pretty important things...might even solve the war in Iraq, global warming, and the beer thing. Nah, let's just nuke each other...

JMHO...no offense intended.

Dave

[mas]

Haha!

Now, in addition to fundamental disagreements over not only what characterizes a tube sound or a SS sound, this morphs into topics such as Iraq, global warming and beer. And what is this issue with "nuk(ing) each other"?

Heck why not. Its as meaningless as folks comparing subjective experiences in any other realm other then to simply express them - as there is no basis for comparison.

Poetry readings can be fun too.

You say: "I run like heck from discussions of power supply filtering and the
relative merits of 1000.00/meter interconnects, but I don't doubt there
are those who both hear a difference and appreciate same."

The irony is that you don't see the similarity here.

Some of us do.

There are very real differences between vanilla and chocolate ice cream too. The amazing thing is that one's enjoyment of either is not dependent upon their or any other's opinion of which is better expressed to another. Nor is it based on anyone else appreciating or understanding what you might prefer. And this depends least of all on some judgment of which is "better". The same with the subjective opinions of amplifiers.

And just like ice cream, the differences are better appreciated in the eating rather then the endless talking where a given word does not have the same meaning from user to user.

Have fun. And I hope that another opinion of the process doesn't upset anyone too much. Some of us enjoy these discussions almost as much as perhaps you do...but perhaps for different reasons.

[]

Oh, and in response to the initial comment about SR rigs using SS amps. It is for the exact same reasons that the space shuttle doesn't use tube equipment (although the Russians did do some absolutely amazing things with their space program using tube equipment!). Current draw, reliability, weight, efficiency...

[kaiser SET say]

I hear ya MAS, just think of the weight those Rooskies had on board in tranny's alone[]

[DrWho]

I dunno...reading other people's opinions about whatever has certainly changed how I listen to my own music. It's also changed my perspective on the science too. I think part of the problem is I'm still young enough to believe that it's possible to build an amp/speaker/whatever that can satisfy everyone []

[Mallette]

"You say: "I run like heck from discussions of power supply filtering and the relative merits of 1000.00/meter interconnects, but I don't doubt there are those who both hear a difference and appreciate same."

The irony is that you don't see the similarity here.

Some of us do."

I THINK I made that point. I certainly hear differences in SS/Tube/Digital amps. I engage in those discussions. What I do not do is disparage those who hear things I don't or discussions of same. That would be metaphysically aburd as well as rather self aggrandizing.

Dave

[mas]

"You say: "I run like heck from discussions of power supply filtering and the relative merits of 1000.00/meter interconnects, but I don't doubt there are those who both hear a difference and appreciate same."

The irony is that you don't see the similarity here.

Some of us do."

I THINK I made that point. I certainly hear differences in SS/Tube/Digital amps. I engage in those discussions. What I do not do is disparage those who hear things I don't or discussions of same. That would be metaphysically aburd as well as rather self aggrandizing.

Dave

Nope!

That would be exactly what Wittgenstein addressed.

They are called "pseudo problems".

And the entire discussion is absurd. []

[Mallette]

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen"

And that, I am.

Can we leave Wittgenstein to other Fora and discuss Wallflower's thread?

Dave

[mas]

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen"

Exactly!

Now read it for meaning.

(And for the others who may not be familiar... It refers to Wittgenstein's observation that in such absurd debate where words are not sufficient to tools, "About what one cannot speak, one must remain silent". As language, except perhaps via poetical inference, too has limitations just as some attribute to measurements and therefore lack meaning. The tools are 'too small' for the task at hand. And if you maintain that measurements cannot fully comprehend amplifier behavior, words are even less able.)

So, who's ahead? Chocolate or vanilla?[]

[Guest " "]

Mas

"although the Russians did do some absolutely amazing things with their space program using tube equipment"

Tube equipment can recover from atomic fall out whereas SS can not and is basiclly useless in a radiation zone. Thats why the military uses tube equipment.

[mas]

Solid state devices - and ALL discrete electronics for that matter, do not stand up to EM impulse weapons! That is also why the remake of War of the Worlds is such a ridiculous movie - as if all of the electronics in the vehicles and elsewhere are damaged by the invaders impulse weapons, you do not simply get an ignition coil off of the shelf and drive off!

Its also why IEEE Spectrum publishing the step by step plans to build an impulse weapon from a microwave klystron in the Fall 2003 issue was a bit ludicrous. Hey, but it did warn you that the voltages might be hazardous!

I am also literally amazed that we have not experienced more of these everywhere! (Although the government did manage to knock out part of Southern California a while ago with exactly this kind of mistake - although they were not using microwave ovens! And they did not admit it at the time!)

That is not why the Russians continued to use tube equipment. And unfortunately, the electronics supporting tubes are not somehow magically immune to EM impulses either. But the smaller the conductor, the faster it vaporizes. And their space exploration program, distinct from their satellites, land based missiles and communications, was not of much use for warfare. The potential for war does not demand the capacity for manned space exploration.

Oh, and 'hardening' is only of limited usefulness.

Now, if they had only used more transformers....

[sheltie dave]

Hey Mas, just wanted to thank you for the heads up on spirals and tubes. Found a gentleman here in Chicago who talks the talk and walks the walk, and he showed me the real thing. Interesting.

He also noted that speakers, not amps, provided the largest source of error if not properly time- and frequency-aligned.

As far as salad state compared to tubes, tubes are superior with accoustic, and are difficult to top until somwhere around the $1000 price range, apples and apples. I compromise and run both types with my systems.

[mas]

Dave,

You mention an important point that cannot be made too strongly.

The speaker and the speaker/room interface is the single most critically determinant source of the sound quality.

Oh sure, other components and combinations of components can certainly contribute to the overall character, but all are minor in comparison to the speaker and to the interaction of the speaker in the room. And you folks are certainly welcome to discuss which flavors of ice cream that you like.

I run both and like both. Tubes are (or can be) expensive and a pain, but they are like analog LPs in that you do have a 'relationship' (for better or worse) with the unit. Solid state is pretty much 'set it and forget it' (which can certainly be a blessing in itself!). And each have their strengths and weaknesses. As far as the sonic characters, each can be all over the place. I resist this notion that there is a static "tube sound" just as I reject the notion that there is a static "SS sound". So listen and choose the one that fits your preferences and life style. After all, the color of the meters, or whether it glows or even has meters is important too.[] I guess...

But if you want to place your effort where there is the biggest return on your investment, focus on the choice of speakers and their interaction within the listening space.

And to that end, focusing on any other piece of electronics in the signal chain while ignoring these latter aspects is at best a Pyrrhic victory. You may win the battle, but you are losing the war if you are not focusing on the acoustical interface constituted by the speakers and the room.

Have fun. Now back to the ice cream war...[][]

[Mallette]

(Below withdrawn...I thought that song was about me...I am so vain Apologies to MAS and Sheltie Dave)

If you've ever read anything I've written, you'd know IMHO it is all about the SOURCE material. Speakers, amps, TT's, CD players, DACs, interconnects, whatever cannot make champagne from swamp water. A fine recording sounds good on a '56 Chevy car radio. A crappy recording sounds worse on a great system.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Apologies, yet again, to Wallflower for the deviation from your topic. Your forbearance is in accordance with the best of the forum.

Dave

[DrWho]

Hey Mas, just wanted to thank you for the heads up on spirals and tubes. Found a gentleman here in Chicago who talks the talk and walks the walk, and he showed me the real thing. Interesting.

He also noted that speakers, not amps, provided the largest source of error if not properly time- and frequency-aligned.

Hey sheltie, who is this guy of whom you speak? I'd love to meet him sometime (and wonder if I already have). There's a pretty big AES chapter in Chicago that you might be interested in visiting. Tom Danley spoke just a few weeks ago - sadly I missed the meeting, but heard it was awesome.

[mas]

Dave,

Please allow me to qualify my previous statement...

Of course the source material is critical! No debate there!!!

My comments were simply regarding the reproduction signal chain after the 'source'.

I don't think that anyone can debate the garbage in-garbage out aspect of reproduction, and its hard to imagine a reproduction that can exceed the fundamental limitations imposed by the source (although I am pretty sure someone is marketing some product(s) somewhere making exactly that claim!).

[]

BTW, have you had an opportunity to record in the Bass Performance Hall in Fort Worth?