Cut-Throat Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I am currently building a Welborne StarChief amp and the supplied signal wire from the RCA input is tiny - Smaller than 30 gauge! It is hard to work with. Strip and solder. I was wondering what possible advantage of having the wire this small is. I've used shielded 18 gauge wire before and it works fine. Anyone have an Idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 good point since a lot of upgrade projects will later put in bigger wires and often silver coated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 The answer is here http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 pauln I read thru the chart....nice collection of facts...but I need help in understanding why 30 guage cable would be prefered. The only thing I can think of, is if some wire wrapping tool was an installation option, and the tool needs 30 gauge or less to work. Typically, working with thin wire is overly cumbersome in that it is hard to strip with out overstripping it as well as the insulator melting as the solder joints are made, usally requiring inserting into heat shrink tubing. Another thought might be the reduced insulation mass in thin wire as opposed to thicker wire which may have a bearing on line capacitance due to insulation skin theories. I have seen in my gear thin silver wire, buy i assumed the thin guage was due to the cost of the silver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 99% of the time it is engineering cost. Go ahead and upgrade it to something that you can at least handle without it falling apart. 24 gauge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Feel special you were able to get something at all from Welbourne. I have had 3 items paid for and back ordered from him for 5 months now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Feel special you were able to get something at all from Welbourne. I have had 3 items paid for and back ordered from him for 5 months now. Quit yer whining and try to top this. I ordered my Star Chief kit in September. Still not here. Credit card was, of course, charged at time of purchase. I cannot say enough bad things about Ron Welborne's operation. It really straddles the line between negligent and criminal. So my answer to your question, Cut, not based on anything other than the fact that ir makes me feel good, is that the wire is so thin because Ron Welborne is an ***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Quite simple and common sense actually.. If you use big thick wire, there are too many electrons in that wire for the low voltage and current present at the RCA inputs to move. Its like trying to push a Mack Truck with your fingertip. It simply wont work. 30Gauge wire is still on the thick side. I have some 40 gauge Platinum Crystal core, boron-gold sputtered wire. The high vacuum sputtering technique is used extensively by advanced Galium Nitride Space qualified semiconductor labs as it is far far superiour to the normal electroplating techniques to deposit uniform atomic layers. This technique as far as I know is unique in the esoteric ultrafi world: no one has been able to get access to the high tech equipment needed before. It significantly increases the skin depth and thus reduces the mutual self-inductance due to concentric fields. The wire is then weaved into a patented lattice that is critical it reduce the autoreluctance of current flow. The directional weave keeps the electrons field aligned and in simpler terms, prevents them from bumping into each other due to brownian motion. This also increases thier mobility and makes for much faster wire. The sound improvement is really incredible! I would be happy to send you a sample but I just sold my last batch to a well known audiophile. I would tell you who he is but he is working on some custom modifications to his super high end amp that will appear in an upcomming magazine, and he is bound to secrecy because they want exlusive rights to the amazing sound breakthru that he will show. Mind you it is not inexpensive stuff, but well worth it, and those who have used it are quite happy to tell me that had they known about it sooner, it would have been the first modification to do since it affects the signal the moment it leaves the interconnect. And I am sure you would agree that it is best to work on the signal as early as you can, before it enters the more complex portions of your amp. My next batch is delayed as the lab that is making it was just hired to fix some of the recent Space Shuttle problems. But if you send me your deposit of $10 I would be happy to put you on top of the waiting list!. How many mm do you need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 That was an awesome answer. Due to my extreme amount of high end knowledge, I understood the whole thing. I have never seen such a good explanation of why 30ga wire is so much better than 24 ga wire. I tip my hat to you! Now if I can find my electron aligner, I'll tell you how it works. I found my electrons were travelling through the wire in a helter skelter fashion. With the aligner, they line up and travel single file and don't pick up any extra noise along the way. I should sell the aligners for $100......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 Dear Spkrdctr. Oh my GOD. Like Bones on Star Trek would say you are using barbaric tools from the dark ages of hifi. With my wires at the front end, the electrons get alligned and STAY aligned! Dont put your money into a tool in order to align your electrons over and over again like a crappy Craftsman radial arm saw. Put the right kind of wire at where the signal comes into the amp and fix the problem once and for all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 How about we entertain rational explanations. The "electron field alignment" sounds like something from Mr & Mrs Belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 All joking aside, the currents are so darn small that 30 gauge or larger or smaller makes no difference. It is only a cost/manufacturing or other issue. Go ahead and put larger wire if it is easier for you to handle...But dont overdo it. You shold not have to go bigger than 22 gauge. If you go bigger then you need alot of heat to melt solder and you may melt otherhtings along the way. But dumb question? Are the input wires not Coaxial or twisted pair for shielding? The link to the wire gauge page was so that one could easily calculate the resistance that the 30 gauge wire added to the circuit and conclude that it makes no difference. I dont even bother doing the calculations. I am curious why you did not make the calculations yourself? . Audio is not rocket science. Simple application of Ohm's law can be used to solve so many of the standard audio questions whenever wire is concerned. Input voltage is about 1 volt Input resistance could be from 10KOhm to 1M Ohm. lets use 10K Ohm as a worst case Using ohms law: V=IR or I=V/R you get 1/10 of a milliamp.. Using the wire gauge tables for 30 gauge is 100ohms per 1000f So even if you have a foot of wire you have 1/10 of an ohm Using ohms law again: V=IR 1/10 miliamp times 1/10th of an ohm equals 1/100 of a volt drop.. Or 1% loss. which is inaudible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted April 23, 2007 Author Share Posted April 23, 2007 All joking aside, the currents are so darn small that 30 gauge or larger or smaller makes no difference. It is only a cost/manufacturing or other issue. Go ahead and put larger wire if it is easier for you to handle...But dont overdo it. You shold not have to go bigger than 22 gauge. If you go bigger then you need alot of heat to melt solder and you may melt otherhtings along the way. But dumb question? Are the input wires not Coaxial or twisted pair for shielding? The link to the wire gauge page was so that one could easily calculate the resistance that the 30 gauge wire added to the circuit and conclude that it makes no difference. I dont even bother doing the calculations. I am curious why you did not make the calculations yourself? . Audio is not rocket science. Simple application of Ohm's law can be used to solve so many of the standard audio questions whenever wire is concerned. Input voltage is about 1 volt Input resistance could be from 10KOhm to 1M Ohm. lets use 10K Ohm as a worst case Using ohms law: V=IR or I=V/R you get 1/10 of a milliamp.. Using the wire gauge tables for 30 gauge is 100ohms per 1000f So even if you have a foot of wire you have 1/10 of an ohm Using ohms law again: V=IR 1/10 miliamp times 1/10th of an ohm equals 1/100 of a volt drop.. Or 1% loss. which is inaudible. Which begs the question/observation - Wouldn't one feel a bit stupid hooking up garden hose sized interconnects the RCA inputs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Feel special you were able to get something at all from Welbourne. I have had 3 items paid for and back ordered from him for 5 months now. Quit yer whining and try to top this. I ordered my Star Chief kit in September. Still not here. Credit card was, of course, charged at time of purchase. I cannot say enough bad things about Ron Welborne's operation. It really straddles the line between negligent and criminal. So my answer to your question, Cut, not based on anything other than the fact that ir makes me feel good, is that the wire is so thin because Ron Welborne is an ***. my answer stands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 "Which begs the question/observation - Wouldn't one feel a bit stupid hooking up garden hose sized interconnects the RCA inputs?" Not if that's what happens to make one happy. Most of that thickness is associated with dressing the cable up to make it look nice, and doesn't necessarily reflect the size of the conductor/s and/or shield. 18AWG might be easier to work with, but its cross section is much, much larger than what would be needed for an input signal lead. Despite some of the negative feelings regarding Ron mentioned here, that you received small wire for the connection between the jack and the famous grid is actually on target. It should work well. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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