East Bay Mash-Up Volume 2

[joshnich]

A group of Bay Area Klipsch fans (smaller than the first mash-up ) got together today to listen to music shoot the s+++, and compare amps. As some of you know we did this a few weeks back and decided to give it another go. The amps we were comparing were VRDs, Moondogs, pCATS, Wright Sound SET amps, and Adcom GFA 555 (I think that was the model number) 200 watts a side SS amp.It was a great day to do it in a great room. Thanks to our host we had munchies, cold beer and great components to use as the base for all of our listening.

Having met each other at the first mash up there was less time needed to get to know each other and we were quicker to get down to listening. We were also pretty quick to develop a play list, which we used for all 5 sets of amps. We also had a working turntable this time. In fact a very nice working tt a Michell Gyrodec with a Rega 900 arm a low output MM cart that I cannot remember the make and model of. So virtually everything we listened to was on vinyl with the exception of the fine African singer, Angelique Kidjo who we listened to on CD. I do not know the names of the two songs of hers that we used. Both were very rhythmic with lots of dynamics and multiple instruments. There was another LP that we were using that was an instrumental that was also very dynamic with multiple and varied instruments. Sorry I cannot remember the artist. The rest of the play list was

Ray Brown Trio Exactly Like You

Two cuts from the Bowers & Wilkins Very Audiophile New Recordings Collection.

-Allan Taylor Colour To The Moon

-Sara K. Would You Break My Heart

Dire Straits Ride Across the River

Allison Krauss and Union Station When You Say Nothing at All

The order of the amps was as follows

VRDs

pCATS

Moondogs

Adcom

Wright Sound

I would say that all of the amps were impressive and most anyone would be happy to own and listen to any of them. I am sure we individually had our favorites. Not surprising I am not changing out my pCATs based on anything I heard. I thought that overall the pCATS provided the most overall elegant presentation of the group. If I were to own two of the amps we listened to they would be the pCATS and the Adcom. I say that because there is something intriguing about blasting rock and roll at levels that you would need to stow anything loose laying about less they become dangerous projectiles. It would also be useful if you find yourself needing to provide the sound for a 300 person dance party! If that is what you are into, none of the tube amps could deliver it the way the Adcom could. JMHO. I also have to say that I was impressed with the Moonies and the Wright Sound SETS. Anyone who hasnt heard a quality SET amp needs to do so. Forget about the propaganda and trust your ears. One of the great benefits of owning Klipsch is the ability to drive them to dynamic levels with high quality low wattage amps.

Ill admit that I had a little bias in this regard. Before the Moonies arrived, were listening to the Ray Brown LP and relishing in the incredible and powerful bass, and as an aside I said well I dont think we will be hearing the moonies do this. I was wrong. They delivered the bass in a big way. Not to the level of the VRDs or the pCATS and certainly not the Adcom. But pretty darn close and very musical and controlled to boot.

Ill post some photos a little later!

Josh

[cyclonecj]

I agree with Josh... There was nothing there that any of could not listen to long term....

I think one of the most important things to keep in mind was that we were running a digital watt meter & a DB meter, & I think we saw the 2 watt light flicker only a few times, even with my Adcom. Most of the day the listening level was about 95 - 100 DB at the listening position, with a few peaks hitting 106, even on the 3.5 wpc tube amps.

Here are my observations of the day. First, I am an SS guy, who has not heard K-horns since the mid 80's, & never heard tubes, so take this for what its worth.

The VRD's were up first, which is always a disadvantage, but they had a very clean, solid sound to them, & set the reference for the day. It would have been nice to go back to them later. They were playing when I walked in the door, & I have to say, Darrell's whole system sounded excellent.

Josh's Pcats were next, & I found they had a very smooth midrange that just brought out the best of the female vocals... an obvious difference, but at the same time, I found the highs a bit unclear. I would have liked to go back to them at the end to verify this. Very musical & easy to listen to.

Of the bunch, I think the moondogs would have had the best overall sound, if they had not been played right after the Pcats. Very hard to pick a winner here....Very clean highs, great, solid lows, & a great mid. I commented that during a violin solo, I could almost hear the bow plucking the string.

I was a bit apprehensive to insert the Adcom into the mix of tubes, but I think most of us were surprised, including myself. My Adcom is a model 585 limited, which was basically a pair of 565 mono-blocks stuffed into a single box. It's rated for 250 wpc (the 565 was 300, & was their flagship at the time)

After the moondogs & Pcats, the Adcom seemed a bit strained in the mids, especially on Allison Krauss's (wonderful!) voice. However, highs were crystal clear, & lows were obviously not a problem. Darrell made a comment that it sounded much better than his Adcom 535. I agree here, since I have a 535 & have not used it for years for just that reason.

Darrell then connected his Wright 2A3's, & they were very impressive for what they were. Less than 1/2 the size of anything else there, they were putting out a wonderful sound that kept up with anything we had been listening to all day.

Last, but not least, Darrell has a great place, & makes some of the best chili I have ever had. Thanks for being a great host.....

[joshnich]

I cannot believe that I forgot about the sound pressure meter and the watt meter!!! Have to say having them added to the fun!

Josh

[fini]

Nice write-ups, gents!

[cyclonecj]

Fini... We missed you today! Maybe next time?

[fini]

ABSOLUTELY!

[joshnich]

Here are the cats and the VRDs as well as the rest of the fine set up!

[joshnich]

Fini... We missed you today! Maybe next time?

We did miss you! I was looking forward to seeing you again. So this means that we really really have to set up the next one!

Josh

[fini]

Hey, that turntable looks tray bon (as the French would say)! I'll bet it served well.

[cyclonecj]

Mark: Here is a pic of the Watt Meter next to the amps... Everyone was happy with the levels... we had trouble talking over the music most of the time, & we never felt like we were hearing any compression etc.

[cyclonecj]

Close up

[cyclonecj]

SPL meter:

[cyclonecj]

The system... You can see where the SPL meter was located most of the time: Look on the chair on the lower right

[lighting guy]

That's funny fini![] It IS on a serving tray, the only thing I could come up with to fit its footprint in this temporary configuration. I've definitely run out of room on top of this dining sideboard! To complete Josh's description it's a Gyrodec SE (spider edition- on springs), with a Rega RB 600 arm. The cart is a LOMC Tranfiguration Aria. I didn't put it together myself, but it's a package I bought on Agon from a guy in San Jose. It does sound good to me- very natural.

My assessment of the different amps may yield a slightly different order of preference, though I will start by saying they all sounded good in different ways, not a dog in the bunch (no pun intended)[]. I think the best overall winner is the pCATS as well. Great tonal balance, all the music sounded very clean and listenable with good weight, a fine pairing with the BBX (of course) and the Khorns. [Y]

Second place gets a little trickier for me, and I think it becomes a matter of personal taste as to what you might want in an amp, more finesse and detail or more bottom and a livelier presentation. It also speaks to what you listen to (and how). If you like more vocal and acoustic music and like to sit in the sweet spot, I'd definitely go with the Moondogs. Great tonal balance, with a very 3 dimensional presentation[] and a sweet liquid midrange. And good, natural sounding bass, it's no slouch. Good quality watts thru great tubes, caps and iron. But, if you like it livelier and want to fill a big room and REALLY FEEL the bottom, it's the VRDs. Sometimes I like to wallow in it and really pump up the volume, rock out, and they're always there for me. It's too bad we didn't have that one really "open it up" song in the cue. I had some Zep and Who on CD but was starting to feel we had enough songs already and frankly my CD player was being picky and I didn't want to mess with changing out CDs during the run of songs. Don't get me wrong, the playlist was GREAT and Josh's records were of very good audiophile quality and all of the songs had wonderful revealing detail and dynamics. Bryan wanted to go back and do a "rattle the dishes" pass and in hindsight it would have been fun, but 5 hours was enough time. I must say that the bass presentation of the VRDs on the Allison Krauss song sounded a bit boomy, not as naturally musical as on some of the other amps. On other songs I more enjoyed the fuller bottom extension the VRDs give, as well as the more pronounced top end. It must also be noted that Mark Deneen is not a fan of high end sizzle as was evidenced in our listening session with him two weeks ago. He may have better, more sensitive ears to high frequency than most of us. I think that is also evidenced in his amp design, it seems to present a softer high end. High and low frequency presentations are definitely a matter of personal taste and a great source of battles of opinion over amp and speaker (and tube) choices and are better left to the individual.

Next, I felt, was the Adcom 585. It did sound very smooth, better than I thought solid state could thru the horns. Much better than my Adcom 535 (100wpc). Good, well mannered sound with no distortion, very listenable. But I also thought it was a little veiled, not as lively and fully formed a sound as the tube amps provided. Nothing really seemed to move to the foreground for me. I was also surprised that they didn't do the low extension as well as the VRDs. Should have done that last pass with some rock (or electronic music) at higher sustained volume to do a better test on that.

Lastly were my Wright 3.5s, the little amps that (almost) could, my first tube amps. When I put these into my system last year I couldn't believe the realism I was hearing for the first time. Nice, detailed presentation, liquid midrange, but alas, no real oomph. I have to say that George's preamps have more gain than the BBX. The 3.5s mate better with my Wright WPL20, more volume for sure. This was my first pairing of the little 2A3 amps with the BBX and they sounded more tame than ever to me, but we didn't bring the volume all the way up either. They were also last in the cue (an afterthought that Bob wanted to hear) and they suffered for it. The Wrights didn't hold a candle to the Moondogs, didn't have the caps or iron to give them a run for the money, but they also retailed for about half the price in their day. The Wrights are a good little amp if you do nearfield listening of acoustic music. Might be good paired with those single-driver Fostex speakers. Educated guess, Mark?

All in all, a good day with great company. Wonderful music from fine equipment. Doesn't get much better than that for me.[]. Take these opinions with a grain of salt. It all depends on what you listen to and HOW YOU LIKE IT. No bashing or flames should result from any of the different amp design factions. To me, it all sounded good in its own way. That's the beauty (and maybe the curse as well) of owning Klipsch; you can try different topologies and wattages and get revealing auditions. Remember as Edmond (Jazman) stated a couple of weeks ago, the best thing is to listen BEFORE you buy if you can, even better if you can test drive amps in your own system if at all possible. YMMV.

Darrell

[lighting guy]

I think it's funny from Bryan's photo that the SPL meter got the best seat in the house! I invited people to sit there and nobody would.[8-)] I guess we were all to mannerly. Maybe we NEEDED FINI THERE! []

[joshnich]

Darrell is correct. We probably should have thrown a couple of real rockers in the mix. Gives us chance to do it again. But next time its at my house because I am not going to haul the CATS around again!! I think that Darrells right up is spot on. He has done a better job of noting the strengths of the various amps than I did.

Josh

[jheis]

Sounds like a good day. Sorry I missed it (especially the chili []).

Sign me up for next time. The North Bay contingent needs to be represented.

James

[lighting guy]

Thanks Mark. No not everything was on vinyl. We started each amp pass with a couple of songs on CD by Angelique Kidjo, a vibrant singer from the African country of Benin. Her music is dynamic with strong vocals and rhythm tracks and a pretty well recorded CD to kick things off. I could tell however that sound quality took a step forward when we switched to the table. My CD player is not in a league with your Rega.

[cyclonecj]

....Gives us chance to do it again. But next time its at my house because I am not going to haul the CATS around again!!

Josh

This sounds like another gathering in the works.... [*-)]

[ka7niq]

I bought, fixed, and sold an Adcom 585.

They had a serious problem with the caps leaking on the board!

We managed to save the amp by replacing the leaky cap.

It was operating and biased properly.

I was very disappointed in this amp.

I had high expectations for it it sonically did not live up to!

My Luxman m 117 smoked it, and so did the excellent Ashly FET 500's, pro sound mos fet amps.

Speakrrs used for listening were the B&W matrix 801 S2 and Klipsch CF 4 version 1's.

Perhaps the power supply caps in the 585 were oold and dried up ?

That was my findings on the Adcom 585, I was glad to see it go.