Bi-wiring Belles?

[jazman]

I have a pair of 1975 vintage Belles(yes, yes, finally) and would like to know if anyone has bi-wired their Belles? If you have, please let me know if your result was positive. If you have Belles and have chosen not to bi-wire due to some other considerations, please share your reasons and experience. These speakers will only be used as 2 channel audio, dedicated mostly for Jazz but also almost anything else musical. Does anyone have any suggestions for upgrading the speaker wire connections on these Belles? I have used spade connectors for the present but would like to use something more modern. I will be using equipment probably older than most of you, so you may not be familiar with it.

Power will be suppied by;

Nakamichi 620 Power amp

Crown IC150A Preamp

Phillips CD player(for present)

Audio Quest Bedrock speaker cable.

Later I will be adding my B&O Turntable, Nakamichi cassette, Teac Reel.

BTW, I do not want to start a Bi-wire debate! Just sharing experiences with success or failure with this type connection. I will experiment, or not, based on the feedback.

Thanks,

Klipsch out.

Edmond

[maxg]

As far as I know Belles, in common with the rest of the Heritage range, only have one set of terminals for connection.

I understand that you need 2 sets of connectors to biwiring.

Unless yours have been modified I dont think you can biwire (in the sense of one set of connectors for the highs and one set for the lows).

Just my $0.02

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2 * Heresy 2 (mains)

2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears)

1 * REL Strata 3 sub

Accuphase E211 amp.

Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (solid state).

Marantz CD6000 player

Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player

Stax Headphones

Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver

Sharp Video

32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV

Mogami interconnects

Silver Synergistic speaker cable

[mobile homeless]

Yes, to get the true benefit of bi-wiring, you must have two sets of binding posts and the speaker wired internally to take advantage ie. One set of wires going to the mid and tweeter, while the other set to the woofer. This would be at possible an advantage if you were running, say, good tube amplification to the top end with a solid state amp to the woofer; in other words, it would go beyond basic bi-wiring and on to bi-amping, another can of worms with more mods necessary.

To be honest (and you may not want to hear this on a Monday morning), you have many, many more things you should look into before you even contemplate this bi-wiring option, namely, the fact that your amplification it REALLY not up to the quality of your Belle Klipsch speakers. In fact, I can outright say it should be the first thing you consider, right off the bat.

I owned the Nakamichi 620 series amplifier along with the Nak 600II wedge tape deck, a deck I actually still own. This was an extremely esoteric looking amplifier for its day given its wedge shape with front facing heat sinks with some unusual operating features as well. I also have a lot of experience with Crown amplification from working in bands and at a college radio station I inhabited for quite a few years. Crown, while being bullet proof for rock band PA systems (another reason horns have a bad name, by the way) and pro solutions, is about the least musical amplification device I have ever seen. I cannot imagine letting a Crown device handle anything as delicate as the preamp role. And their amplification is so crude and harsh, it should not even be an option.

I cannot more staunchly recommend upgrading your amplification for your new Belle Klipsch speakers as your current system is going to sound imminently sterile and unmusical, especially considering your taste in music. While the NAK 620 is slightly more recommended than the Crown preamp, both can be so improved on, with so little money, you would almost not believe it.

Given the extremely sensitive nature of the Belle Klipsch, I would take advantage of your new ability to use quality tube amplification. I think you will be so taken with this combination, you wont look back at your current amplification, unless it is to just get a taste of what you were living with. Tubes will bring your Belle Klipsch and acoustic jazz to life, giving it a soul and presence that will make your current setup sound as flat as the industrial carpeting at IBM headquarters. I can only say you will not know how you had gotten along without it! There are many options here, from the excellent vintage EICO HF-81 integrated featuring an all triode front end running EL-84s to more modern designs from Cary, Conrad-Johnson, Antique Sound Labs, Jolida, on to the EXCELLENT single-ended choices such as Wright Sound, Fi, Welborne Labs, etc.

The vintage Klipsch speakers are so sensitive to what is upstream; this can be both bad and good, obviously. The good is that they will really SING with good low power tube amplification thus bringing acoustic horns, vocals, and strings to a new level of musicality.

In addition, upgrading your Philips CD player is going to extremely beneficial. Consider even a used Rega Planet or the new Tjoeb player. The Philips players are not very kind to CDs sounding far more CD-like than tolerable. You will probably prefer your vinyl and NAK, and reel-to-reel sources, not to mention vinyl, the BEST match for vintage Klipsch. IF you are a jazz fan, you know how the best material is still best sourced through vinyl. Heh... Perhaps Ill hold off on the B&O comments...heh

Your best friend right now might possibly be eBay and AudiogoN. Welcome to Monday news.

kh

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s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Creek OBH-12 Passive Preamp

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Wire - Various

1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico

Alternate Components:

EICO HF-81 - btw, perfect Cornwall match

ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL

ProAc Mini-Towers

EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner

Sumo Aurora Tuner

Nakamichi CR-7af>s>

[jazman]

mobile,

Ok bi-wiring is a dead issue for the moment.

Not to worry about bad news Monday. In another forum I state that any of my hardware is subject to upgrade at any time. I knew when I purchased the Belles that it would create a chain reation of upgrades to many pieces. I've been investigating tube power but still don't feel I know enough to be comfortable making a purchase. Do you know a shop in the SF Bay area with enough experience to help me through this process of listening and learning about tubes? I've only heard Conrad Johnson products. The search has been on for a new CD player for months, turntables can't be found everywhere. What should I budget for each upgrade? I may require a two stage upgrade with startup target and an ultimate goal for each piece.(I have a son who plays ice hockey so there's more than one drain on the income.) Are there integrated pieces that can give me good upgrade bang for my bucks? I believe I read that Conductor purchased an integrated CJ for his KHorns. I try to focus most on the music I enjoy, not being at the top of the esoteric equipment chain, so keep that in mind when making recommedations. I can accept a compromise.

Thanks for the heads up.

Edmond

[edster00]

jazman,

I have had both Jolida and Antique Sound Labs integrated amps paired with my Belles and my Khorns.

The Jolida I had was a model 801a, it is rated at 70wpc. It was a great sounding amp, one of my buddies was really mad at me when I got rid of it. I simply don't need 70wpc with vintage Klipsch speakers. I continued to look for lower powered amps, eventually got an ASL MGSI-15DT/s I got rid of it because it was too much to type every time! Not really! It was 5wpc Triode mode and 15wpc pentode mode. I like Triode better than Pentode and it just didn't have enough power to "crank it up" without distorting.

I think I have finally found the amps I can live with for a long time...as mentioned in another thread I ended up with Welborne Labs Moondogs. These babies are heaven to listen to and have much more power @ 3.25 wpc than the ASL or the Decware Signature Triode Monoblocks rated at 3.5 or 5 wpc or something, did with the higher rating.

If I were you I would look in the phone book for audio dealers in your area and ask them what kind of tube amps they carry. Go in and talk to them and listen to some equipment. Many will have an amp that you can take home and try in your system in your home (the best way to evaulate equipment, by far). Also, some online audio dealers have a 30 day trial period where you can audition the equipment for a while and send it back if you don't like it. It usually only costs you shipping charges and sometimes a small re-stocking fee.

The Jolida and ASL stuff (others too I am sure) is pretty reasonably priced IMHO. I purchased most of my stuff used from AudiogoN at a great savings over new retail prices.

Good luck with your quest, you are really going to love those speakers! (I did end up using a sub with my Belles, but I have abandoned the sub with my Khorns for now...the 2A3 Moondogs are that good)!

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Ed W

This message has been edited by edster00 on 12-17-2001 at 04:11 PM

[jazman]

Thanks maxg, mobile, and edster.

I've been reading like crazy to get up to speed on tube technospeak. So far, here's the plan.

I've moved immeidately on purchasing a vintage EICO HF-81 integrated on ebay for $200. It included some upgrades so I did not try to fiddle with the sellers price. This will solve immediate power/preamp replacement needs and help me acclimate my ears to tube sound, plus provide some point of everyday reference as I move through the choices to a final purchase. So far I've spent a lot of time on the ASL and Jolida websites, reading many reviews, learning push/pull, single ended, etc. Both seem to have very reasonable priced integrated offerings. The Jolida Model JD 102B seemed to be the type of plug and play unit I'm looking for, and afforable. I will get to Wright Sound, Fi, Welborne Labs, etc. sites very soon, but this will require time and much midnight oil. Then will come listening test and take homes if I can find products in my area.

On the CD front, I have purchased a Tjoeb '99 CD player from eBay and waiting on the seller to send my shipping charges.

That will have to do for the immediate moment as I sort out all the products, reviews, features, prices. With the purchase of the Belles and these additional pieces of hardware, I think my bank account needs a rest.

BTW mobile, you were saying about a turntable........

Thanks again to all for providing great recommendations to a neophyte now traveling in "Tubeland". I'll post my impressions of the new hardware to this thread soon. (I hope.)

Klipsch out.

[mobile homeless]

Man, you've been busy! And youre the only freak on at 4:48am EST (even though you are 3 hours behind). I love the HF-81. Where is the link to the auction you won? I'll give it a look. You have to be very careful buying these beasts as it IS an old amp (approaching 40 years) and you dont know the condition. That being said, they are easy to work on and learn about. I have been really lucky with the two I got on ebay. Both were under $100 and the first one is in the page I did below. I have the full construction manual. What tubes came with it? This piece responds really well to tube rolling and loves vintage NOS (New Old Stock) tubes. Did you see that page I started on the HF-81? If not take a look:

http://12.16.160.65/eico_hf-81/

As for the Tjoeb 99, this also responds well to better tubes and it only has two. If the unit has the stock tubes, you can really improve the sound with some other choices. If you need be, I'll throw you some recs on that.

kh

[Mike Lindsey]

Here is the HF-81... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1311337418

and here is the Tjoeb 99... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1311428420

Mike

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My Music Systems

This message has been edited by Mike Lindsey on 12-18-2001 at 08:40 AM

[jazman]

yea mobile, I got real busy. Timing was good. Those items were just posted on ebay yesterday. So after a ton of reading on my part, I decided to go from the gut. I won't bother to describe all the surfing and research. Mike was right on with the ebay links. So what do you think? Did the past owner make the correct mods to the HF-81? The Tjoeb is also supposed to have a couple of high performance tubes included with the package. I'll let you know about them when it arrives to determine if you should make recs.

Late night surfing sessions are likely to be in store for me for some time to get up to speed on products, specs, reviews, etc. I was very tempted to simply order the Jolida JD 102B, but the price of the used HF-81 allowed me to also get the Tjoeb and buy some time. It will be quite educational and fun to learn about the many amplificiation options before a final purchase, especially if I have to save before shelling out massive bucks. Stay tuned for the next chapter.

Klipsch out.

Edmond

[edster00]

Edmond,

Do you know which upgraded tubes you are getting with the AH! Tjoeb? I had good resluts with a pair of Amperex Bugle Boys.

Also be sure to use the analogue outs (RCA connectors) on the CD player. If it is equipped with the optional digital out (COAX) that bypasses the tubes.

I looked at the photos of the amp...it looks clean!!

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Ed W

This message has been edited by edster00 on 12-18-2001 at 03:53 PM

[jazman]

edster, mobile

I asked the seller if they could provide more info on the extra tubes for the Tjoeb, but nothing yet.

Mobile, I visited Welborne Labs site today. Very informative and a lot I've yet to read. Definitely class gear but outside my present budget, but well within a vision of the long term future. I read both of your HF-81 pages and considering how much you like it, I should be ecstatic with it once I assure the performance is up to expectations.

I feel very fortunate to locate both of these pieces. The Force was with me.

BTW, the Belles sound great even with the present amplication limitations. The room where they are located has a ceiling almost 20 ft high, aprrox 18 ft wide and 25 ft long.

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

edster,

AH! Toeb update. The seller has passed along this information on the extra tubes. "The tubes are marked, "Rare production 1968" on the box, and are from Upscale Audio." My humble research shows Upscale Audio as the exclusive North American contact and distributor for the AH! Tjoeb CD Player. Maybe I've got some real goodies to look forward to. Also thanks for the info on the Amperex Bugle Boy tubes which seem to be the "choice" upgrade of reviewers. You and the other enthusiast on this site are awesome! The new pieces should start arriving within the next 10 days. Can't wait to hear how it will sound in my wide open listening room. BTW, I've located a Jolida dealer about 25 miles from my home. After my ears spend some time with the EICO HF-81 integrated, along with some tweeking recs from mobile, I hope to start demoing products.

Klipsch out.

[edster00]

Kevin Deal is the owner of Upscale Audio. If you have any questions about the AH! Tjoeb or the tubes he has all the answers! The actual tubes will have markings on them that say what type they are (ie: 6DJ8 etc.).

Others on the BB may know which are good ones and which are great ones.

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Ed W

[jazman]

edster,

The latest information from the seller on the tubes was;

I found more info on the tube box: Amperex--Jan--7308--Green.

Do you know anyone using the DIY Paramour kit, $549 for a pair of monoblocks with 3.5 watts of SE 2A3.

Klipsch out.

[Mike Lindsey]

I believe Colin is using the Paramour monoblocks...

Mike

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My Music Systems

[edster00]

I think Kevin Deal sold me the same tubes...7308's but I don't remember the "green" part. I did like them better than stock, but I eventually tried the Bugle Boys and liked them the best.

I don't know anyone off hand with the Paramours unless it is Colin as Mike stated. (Pipe up here Colin )

I have heard very good things about the Bottlehead gear but I have not listened to any personally...I know I love my 2A3's but they aren't that powerful!! Only 3.25 watts!! LOL

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Ed W

[ShapeShifter]

Yea, Colin does have Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour mono blocks. Don't know if his were pre-assembled

or the DIY kits?

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[Colin]

I do have the pre-assembled custom Paramour 2A3 amps, these are not the stock models, I love them, but I betthat with some of mobile's help the Eicos can be made to do the same job for a lot less, here is how I described them:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/paramour-tube-amplifier-4-2001.html

my impressions have not changed, except I am already changing a driver tube, so the sound is sharp in one channel, by contrast, my SS amp needed only one fuse in over a decade of service ...

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 12-21-2001 at 12:56 PM

[jazman]

Colin,

Thanks for your post. I sent you an email earlier which you can now disregard. I read your review earlier today after visiting one of the sites where "bottleheads" post. My 2 channel listening room has similar dimensions to yours except its open to the second floor where it's approx 23 ft wide. You also seem ready for the next step, the Paraglow. Once I hit that price, I'd probably go with for the Parabee to cover all power needs for the large room. As with many things, there are so many products from which to chose. It's going to be a long, enjoyable search for my final tube power configuration. Somewhere along that road I'll need to add a preamp and phono stage. These parts, regardless of brand, will require some diligent saving and frugal shopping on my part. At present, I'm just waiting for the EICO and AH! Tjoeb to arrive. The audio richness I sought with the thought of bi-wiring the Belles, now seems waiting to be unleashed by a set of tubes.

Klipsch out.

[mobile homeless]

Well, and I know Colin would agree (possibly), dont be so fast to jump to the Bottlehead camp until after you have heard the EICO. I personally think the EICO (when optimized) is a simply amazing match with the Cornwalls so it would probably do very well with the Belles. Granted, it wont have that lit from within sound of a quality SET amp, but it will have some SERIOUS soul! The EICO will make your SS amps sound extremely two-dimensional. In fact, you will not believe how much excellent sound can be had from a device made some 40 years ago! With a few tweaks here and there and some good tubes, the combination should put many $$$ amps to shame. I think you will be pleasantly surprised here, if not dumbfounded.

As for the Bottlehead gear, ole Doc does have some great stuff. The heart of the matter is the Parallel Feed Transformer from MagneQuest. This is a very different design approach than most single-ended amplifiers that rely on transformers that are AIR GAPPED. Indeed, if you saw how SMALL these little beasts were, you wouldnt believe it. There are a lot of proponents for the Parafeed amps. In addition, all the Bottlehead amps are solid state rectified instead of tube rectified. They have managed to find better ways of implementing this approach, but I am still a lover of tube rectification as I think it offers the most musically natural and relaxed presentation. I am also still a proponent of the traditional air-gapped transformer as it just has this certain quality about it that is hard to put into words. What I am trying to say is that to go with the Bottlehead gear is definitely going with a certain design philosophy. Just realize it is a big difference from many of the other amps following the Single Ended circuit. Amps like Wright Sound, Welborne Labs, Moth, Fi, Cary, Audio Note still adhere to the old style of transformer with most going for tube rectification as well. I personally prefer this style but the Bottlehead gear has many, many followers and one of the best forums around.

One manufacturer that has been recently dabbling in both camps is Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio. While a big proponent of the traditional air-gapped transformer, he just did a Parafeed version of his popular Wavelength Gemini 2A3/45 Monoblock. He has reported great results although he DID stick with tube rectification.

For some cutting edge designs, take a look at these two circuits that DO rely on the MagneQuest Parafeed approach (btw, MagneQuest does make air-gapped iron I have them in my 2A3 Moondogs).

This is my friend Jeff Lessards DIY amp click on his Horus Silver Amps:

http://www.magnequest.com/diy2.htm

But dont decide on any SET topology until you do some more reading and listening. But first, enjoy the EICO when it arrives! It will give you MANY hours of GREAT music. Hope it came with some good valves!

kh