Surround Placement

[Youthman]

I am designing the layout of my theater room from scratch in Adobe Photoshop. As you can see below, it will start out as a 5.1 setup with two rows of 4 theater chairs. Speakers will be RF-7's, RC-7 & RS-7. I have not decided on subs yet. Dolby.com and THX.com suggest the surrounds be placed on the side walls 90 - 110 degrees behind the listening area. The "sweet spot" will be the front row. If I place the surrounds at those angles from the front row, they will be in front of the back row seats. Wouldn't this give an improper effect since the sound that would come from the rear speakers would be in front of the listening area of the back row? Any suggestions on the layout of the room? The various lines were used as reference for angles for speaker placement. The line in front of the Left and Right speakers is a false wall (if I decide to have the A/V equipment up front. They will be on a custom shelf above the left or right speaker). If I do not have the false wall up front and make an A/V rack in the back of the room, the false wall will not be necessary. I just want to make sure I can get behind the A/V equipment. I have no idea how I will get back there though. LOL. I'm not sure what size projection screen is adequate for a 15' x 25' room. From what I have read, I could use 8' or go as wide as 11'. The front row is 13.5' from the screen. This is my first theater room. If you notice anything off, please feel free to comment. Any input and suggestions are greatly welcomed.

[Youthman]

No advice from anyone?

[IndyKlipschFan]

I would love to chat, where do you want me to start?

[Youthman]

Anywhere you would like. I posed several questions above in my post. If you could give some advice to them, that would be a great start. It might encourage others to give their .02. Thx Indy.

[mas]

Dolby.com and THX.com suggest the surrounds be placed on the side walls 90 - 110 degrees behind the listening area. The "sweet spot" will be the front row. If I place the surrounds at those angles from the front row, they will be in front of the back row seats. Wouldn't this give an improper effect since the sound that would come from the rear speakers would be in front of the listening area of the back row?

Yes, this would compromise the rear seats.

You might consider a modified placement of rear speakers that do not employ the di-pole configuration and instead use direct radiating speakers and place them closer to the corners on the side walls angled toward the center of the room...but again, you are violating the intended placement rules. So the results will be a compromise of the intent of the various surround formats.

Aside from proposing configurations that slightly mitigate the issue, I'm not exactly sure what you want to hear. I don't know of a miraculous solution that eliminates the problem short of not sitting in the rear seats!

[Youthman]

Would it be better just to add bookshelves to the rear behind the back row of seats? I was just going by the "recommended" speaker placement from Dolby and THX. I figured they knew what sounds best better than I do.

[mas]

Yes.

Using direct radiating speakers (normal forward firing speakers) placed near or even in the rear corners firing toward the seating 'center' would work best.

P.S.: I would recommend sticking to Dolby and Dts's recommendations, THX was initiated prior to either format in the mid 70s, and is more of a marketing certification than an actual quality designation. Think of it like ISO9000 certification. While many assume increased quality, neither certification necessarily implies quality. The closest THX actually comes is summed up with: THX=Loud

[IndyKlipschFan]

I am designing the layout of my theater room from scratch in Adobe

Photoshop.

Woo hooo Computers to the rescue..LOL.. ( I used graph paper.. I tried like 3 programs to build it.. was just NUTS! So good for you!)

==========================================================================

As you can see below, it will start out as a 5.1 setup with

two rows of 4 theater chairs.

OK, wire for 7.1 even if you only use 5.1 for now..

Do you have a big family... why 2 rows? Build it for yourself first.... you can do it.. of course.. and have 8 chairs...If you need it? I took my advice from others in here and I am glad I did... My room is even a little bit bigger than yours.. but 8 chairs would make it seem cramped.. (for me..) PLUS 90% of the time.. it will be you your other half maybe and if you have 2 kids.. or you, a couple of guys over.. or your wife..some of her friends... You get the point.. If it is a BIG movie night.. people will just as easily sit on the floor too.. (buy good carpet..with a very nice pad too hehehehe) ok.. So I need to know your family size.... to comment more...

==============================================================================

Speakers will be RF-7's, RC-7 &

RS-7. I have not decided on subs yet.

that series... Will just ROCK for a HT.. Look for glenn on here.. goes by Picky... He has your same exact set up, with the RSW 15 I have heard it..and it ROCKS!!!!!

The RSW 15 is a fantastic sub with your syetem... it is made to work with your Ref series speakers too... I would HIGHLY suggest you think hard about getting one...

===============================================================================

Dolby.com and THX.com suggest

the surrounds be placed on the side walls 90 - 110 degrees behind the

listening area.

yes this is true.. so directly to the sides of your sweet spot chairs.. (first row in the middle OR to about 20* behind you.. (I did 20* behind..) do not go in front of you...90* or back will work.. Stay with Dolby.com and DTS.com THX is not a surround format per say.....

============================

The "sweet spot" will be the front row.

Ok, yes, true... Especially the front row 2 middle seats where I assume you will camp out too... I HIGHLY SUGGEST these are where your seats can tilt back//// AND pay the extra and get electric seats too.. 2 positions is NOT enough.. (you will thank me later...) Some people went out n got real theater seats years ago.. for 1 hr they are great... a good NFL game.. you will curse them later... hahahaha Don't forget ones with trays and big sized drink holders too! If you go electric all around.. again your guests will thank you too.. (bury your electical line in cunduit.. dril it into the floor... so no cords to the walls where others might trip too!)

====================================================

If I place

the surrounds at those angles from the front row, they will be in front

of the back row seats. Wouldn't this give an improper effect since the

sound that would come from the rear speakers would be in front of the

listening area of the back row?

Yes, this is a probelm.. Some people just use more surround speakers to trick the brain into believing it is more on the sides... so with 2 rows.. your quite possibly gonna need 4 surrounds.. for the side walls... If you go 7.1 Your going to need them behind you either direct or again sprayed sound surrounds too.. (Put em closer together..too.) I would love to see you use directs for the rears... closer together... say same height as your sides... but behind the center 2 seats in the rear.... THIS will add depth! Think of a plane flying overhead front speakers..to behind you... YOu will love those direct speakers behind you here... "Flight of the Pheonix" is amazing at this !

=======================================================

Any suggestions on the layout of the

room?

It is a great start.... make sure you have room to move around.. Your screen size will be determine just where your electrical outlet is up above for your projector. And proper distance back too.. TOO BIG and your eyes can't capture the whole image... (yes you can go too big.. Too small and you shortchange yourself... LOL) I'm not sure what size projection screen is adequate for

a 15' x 25' room. From what I have read, I could use 8' or go as wide

as 11'. The front row is 13.5' from the screen. USE this...

http://www.da-lite.com/products/projection_calculator.php

Use what projector you have.. It will tell you what to do and where to place your seats due to size issues too.... I would say 8-9 is MORE than enough.. I am 17 feet wide.. I have yet to hear someone go wow you need 2 more feet Roger.. THEN it would of been better... and I am more back than you too...

====================================================================================

The various lines were used as reference for angles for speaker

placement. The line in front of the Left and Right speakers is a false

wall (if I decide to have the A/V equipment up front. They will be on

a custom shelf above the left or right speaker). If I do not have the

false wall up front and make an A/V rack in the back of the room, the

false wall will not be necessary. I just want to make sure I can get

behind the A/V equipment. I have no idea how I will get back there

though. LOL.

I will talk to you more about the false wall idea.. (use insulation for dead spots all around it.. it worked for me...but this wall WILL somewhat make your room smaller too.)

I like your already thinking to HIDE in a way your equipment from front viewing... keep it behind you... so no blinking lights or distractions to your viewing pleasure.... In Front!

Ok, these are my "at first glance 2 cents worth of BS" I mean "helpful suggestions.." LOL

Roger,,,,

[Youthman]

The closest THX actually comes is summed up with: THX=Loud

[] That's what I'm talking about! Loud is good.

I guess what I should have realized is that in both the Dolby and THX recommendations, they only show one row of seating.

Any thoughts on the 11' screen? I'm wondering if that will be too large for the size of the room. I do not want it so big that it is uncomfortable. Someone suggested using black electrical tape on a wall that would represent the size of the desired screen. Sit at a particular distance and imagine action taking place on the imaginary screen. It would give you an idea of how it would feel to be that particular distance from that size screen. I'm thinking the 8' screen would probably work better for my room dimensions...just wanted to get other thoughts.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Dedicated 17' x 30' room, 106" Daylite screen, with the Infocus 7210 DLP Projector.

Thats 8.83 diagonal on a 16x9 screen... FYI for me..

[IndyKlipschFan]

one more to give you the room feel...

[Canadian_Dude]

I would use painters tape to make an imaginary screen because electrical tape might peel the paint and/or leave glue behind.

[IndyKlipschFan]

a bed sheet long before you do anything also works.. hahahahaha

[Youthman]

Woo hooo Computers to the rescue..LOL.. ( I used graph paper.. I tried like 3 programs to build it.. was just NUTS! So good for you!)
Yeah, I'm not too good at drawing on paper. I've been using Photoshop for awhile doing graphic and web design.
==========================================================================

OK, wire for 7.1 even if you only use 5.1 for now..

Yeah, this is what I have been reading. I will definitely do that. When the format wars end, I can consider moving to a 7.1 configuration.

==============================================================================

Do you have a big family... why 2 rows?

Yes we do. I am 31 yrs old I am married with 4 children (8, 6, 4 and 1yr old). In my original plan, I was going to have 6 chairs in two rows. When I was searching online for a schematic for theater chairs, I found a nice 8 chair layout. That isn't a definite but it will at least have 6 to accomodate our family. If I can't seat my entire family, there is no sense having one.

==============================================================================

Build it for yourself first.... you can do it.. of course.. and have 8 chairs...If you need it? I took my advice from others in here and I am glad I did... My room is even a little bit bigger than yours.. but 8 chairs would make it seem cramped.. (for me..) PLUS 90% of the time.. it will be you your other half maybe and if you have 2 kids.. or you, a couple of guys over.. or your wife..some of her friends... You get the point.. If it is a BIG movie night.. people will just as easily sit on the floor too.. (buy good carpet..with a very nice pad too hehehehe) ok.. So I need to know your family size.... to comment more...

More than likely, I will only have 6 chairs. I really like your thought about it being "crowded" with 8 chairs. That would give me more room on the sides.
==============================================================================

Speakers will be RF-7's, RC-7 &
RS-7. I have not decided on subs yet. That series... Will just ROCK for a HT.. Look for glenn on here.. goes by Picky... He has your same exact set up, with the RSW 15 I have heard it..and it ROCKS!!!!!

The RSW 15 is a fantastic sub with your syetem... it is made to work with your Ref series speakers too... I would HIGHLY suggest you think hard about getting one...

I have been reading a lot about the SVS PB12-Plus/2 but am concerned about "standing waves". I might be better off going with two subs in the front or one in front and one in the rear. I haven't seen the RSW 15 around much. Are they hard to find? Approx how much do they run?
===============================================================================

Dolby.com and THX.com suggest
the surrounds be placed on the side walls 90 - 110 degrees behind the
listening area.

yes this is true.. so directly to the sides of your sweet spot chairs.. (first row in the middle OR to about 20* behind you.. (I did 20* behind..) do not go in front of you...90* or back will work.. Stay with Dolby.com and DTS.com THX is not a surround format per say.....

I might try to get the RB-75's and put them on the very back wall. That might work a little better. Then when I move to 7.1, add some side surrounds.

============================
The "sweet spot" will be the front row.

Ok, yes, true... Especially the front row 2 middle seats where I assume you will camp out too... I HIGHLY SUGGEST these are where your seats can tilt back//// AND pay the extra and get electric seats too.. 2 positions is NOT enough.. (you will thank me later...) Some people went out n got real theater seats years ago.. for 1 hr they are great... a good NFL game.. you will curse them later... hahahaha Don't forget ones with trays and big sized drink holders too! If you go electric all around.. again your guests will thank you too.. (bury your electical line in cunduit.. dril it into the floor... so no cords to the walls where others might trip too!)

I haven't really begun to even price these yet. Sounds awesome though. I definitely will not be putting in regular theater seats (like you find in the theater). They will be more along the lines of what you are talking about. Electric will depend upon cost.
====================================================

If I place
the surrounds at those angles from the front row, they will be in front
of the back row seats. Wouldn't this give an improper effect since the
sound that would come from the rear speakers would be in front of the
listening area of the back row?

Yes, this is a probelm.. Some people just use more surround speakers to trick the brain into believing it is more on the sides... so with 2 rows.. your quite possibly gonna need 4 surrounds.. for the side walls... If you go 7.1 Your going to need them behind you either direct or again sprayed sound surrounds too.. (Put em closer together..too.) I would love to see you use directs for the rears... closer together... say same height as your sides... but behind the center 2 seats in the rear.... THIS will add depth! Think of a plane flying overhead front speakers..to behind you... YOu will love those direct speakers behind you here... "Flight of the Pheonix" is amazing at this !

Take a look at the modified layout below as opposed to the RS-7's for the sides. What about going with the RB-75's in the rear?
=======================================================


Any suggestions on the layout of the
room?

It is a great start.... make sure you have room to move around.. Your screen size will be determine just where your electrical outlet is up above for your projector. And proper distance back too.. TOO BIG and your eyes can't capture the whole image... (yes you can go too big.. Too small and you shortchange yourself... LOL) I'm not sure what size projection screen is adequate for
a 15' x 25' room. From what I have read, I could use 8' or go as wide
as 11'. The front row is 13.5' from the screen. USE this...

http://www.da-lite.com/products/projection_calculator.php

I believe that is where I got the 8' to 11' range.

==============================================================================

Use what projector you have.. It will tell you what to do and where to place your seats due to size issues too.... I would say 8-9 is MORE than enough.. I am 17 feet wide.. I have yet to hear someone go wow you need 2 more feet Roger.. THEN it would of been better... and I am more back than you too...

That's awesome Roger. I haven't picked out a projector yet either. Just trying to get the layout down first. So much research to do. I guess there aren't too may people with an 8' screen, much less an 11' screen. I'm leaning towards the 8'. I really don't want to run the risk of eye fatigue due to the ole tennis match on the front row syndrome. The good thing is that I have until Dec/Jan to finish my homework as that is when we will begin building our home.
====================================================================================

The various lines were used as reference for angles for speaker
placement. The line in front of the Left and Right speakers is a false
wall (if I decide to have the A/V equipment up front. They will be on
a custom shelf above the left or right speaker). If I do not have the
false wall up front and make an A/V rack in the back of the room, the
false wall will not be necessary. I just want to make sure I can get
behind the A/V equipment. I have no idea how I will get back there
though. LOL.

I will talk to you more about the false wall idea.. (use insulation for dead spots all around it.. it worked for me...but this wall WILL somewhat make your room smaller too.)
I like your already thinking to HIDE in a way your equipment from front viewing... keep it behind you... so no blinking lights or distractions to your viewing pleasure.... In Front!

If I have the components in the rear of the room, I can eliminate the false wall and insulation for it altogether. One less thing to worry about. But how would I be able to get behind the AV Rack if it is on the back wall? You can see the layout of my room in this post
==============================================================================

Ok, these are my "at first glance 2 cents worth of BS" I mean "helpful suggestions.." LOL
Roger,,,,

Roger, thank you so much for your advice, wisdom and suggestions. I REALLY appreciate it greatly. I truly believe in the value of seeking wise counsel for important decisions in your life. My HT is a very important decision and I want to do it right the first time.

[Youthman]

Dedicated 17' x 30' room, 106" Daylite screen, with the Infocus 7210 DLP Projector.
Thats 8.83 diagonal on a 16x9 screen... FYI for me..

Very nice setup Roger. I really like the tray and lights. Nice touch.

[IndyKlipschFan]

If I can't seat my entire family, there is no sense having one.

Exactly.... That's why I asked... Of course your seat is dead center...LOL.. Until the little ones gang up on you too.. hahahahahahaha

=================================

More than likely, I will only have 6 chairs. I really like your

thought about it being "crowded" with 8 chairs. That would give me

more room on the sides.

Might keep the peace too??? LOL

=================================

I have been reading a lot about the SVS PB12-Plus/2 but am concerned

about "standing waves". I might be better off going with two subs in

the front or one in front and one in the rear. I haven't seen the RSW

15 around much. Are they hard to find? Approx how much do they run?

look on here... (ask) and ebay or audiogon.com etc., etc. The newer subs are fantastic too... but that rsw 15 with what you have... VERY NICE!!! I will refrain from my comments on SVS for now.. (they are good...but different too...)

=================================

I might try to get the RB-75's and put them on the very back wall.

That might work a little better. Then when I move to 7.1, add some

side surrounds.

Those will be fantastic back surrounds...

=====================================

I haven't really begun to even price these yet. Sounds awesome

though. I definitely will not be putting in regular theater seats

(like you find in the theater). They will be more along the lines of

what you are talking about. Electric will depend upon cost.

Ask anyone who has electric..do you regret it??? I doubt most would... Ask another guy... if he has non electic 2 position ones... if you oculd of spent 200 more per seat to have electric now would you??? heheheheh I bet 80% would.... no question!!!

================================================================

Take a look at the modified layout below as opposed to the RS-7's for the sides. What about going with the RB-75's in the rear?

Use the RS 7's for the sides... RB 75's for the rears... TIMBRE wise... it will be a great match!

====================================================================

That's awesome Roger. I haven't picked out a projector yet either.

Just trying to get the layout down first. So much research to do. I

guess there aren't too may people with an 8' screen, much less an 11'

screen. I'm leaning towards the 8'. I really don't want to run the

risk of eye fatigue due to the ole tennis match on the front row

syndrome. The good thing is that I have until Dec/Jan to finish my

homework as that is when we will begin building our home.

Take your time... ask a lot of questions and get peoples opinions too.. You seem smart... read up and dive right in!! hehehehe

=====================================================================

If I have the components in the rear of the room, I can eliminate the

false wall and insulation for it altogether. One less thing to worry

about. But how would I be able to get behind the AV Rack if it is on

the back wall?

Pull it out? Have it on rollers? Hopefully, your not gonna need to get to it too much.

========================================================================

Roger, thank you so much for your advice, wisdom and suggestions. I

REALLY appreciate it greatly. I truly believe in the value of seeking

wise counsel for important decisions in your life. My HT is a very

important decision and I want to do it right the first time.

That's why were here... We enjoy this hobby.. Glad to offer suggestions... I just hope it helps you to think through all this...

[mas]

Just a small note...without getting into some of the aspects that can make it seem even more confusing...

With extended rear seating you also run into potential proximity effects (Henry Precedence Effect). By this I mean that do to their proximity you may have ambient speaker gain levels relative to the seating position which may be sufficient to take precedence over the main front speakers.

The rear seats risk severe imaging errors if their proximity is such that the levels of the ambient speakers are too loud relative to the levels needed by the primary seat ambient levels and also relative to the front speakers.

Ambient levels that are too loud (due to the close proximity/location of the rear seats and speakers) may result in the ambient surround speakers assuming a predominate role supplanting the front speakers. And as a result, any imaging gained by the use of a surround sound environment will be skewed at best.

I hope this is not too confusing

[Youthman]

I believe I follow your logic...but what is your suggestion to prevent this from happening? Does there need to be more distance between the back wall and the back row?

[Southern]

Youthman,

I have the same RF-7 HT speaker system you have. The RS-7 surrounds are more forgiving then what they appear on paper. The rear seats will not be ideal but with the visual effects from the screen you will feel like you are part of the movie.

I had the same situation about a sub for my HT system. The RSW-15's are hard to come by in the used market. I ended up getting an SVS PB-12+2 and it is a very large sub and can fill a very large room. I prefer it only for movies and not for music, the RF-7's provide plenty of good clean bass. Once I get my Avia2 DVD then I can better setup the sub since it sounds too boomy for music. For movies it rocks, I played Twister the other day and it felt like the tornado's were in my family room. I keep the sub at 1/4 level and with the right type of movie it shakes the house, I can't imagine wanting to have two of these subs.

I have my Klipsch 5.1 surround system bi-amped with 140 watts and it is capable of playing louder then movie theathers and concerts.

[Youthman]

Southern, I wish I could say that I own the system. I am currently still saving for it. We will begin construction on our home in January of 2008 which will have a dedicated theater room. Too bad you are too far for me to visit (I live in Florida). I would LOVE to come and hear your setup. It's exactly what I am looking at buying.

I was leaning towards the SVS PB-12/2 from what I have read on the Klipsch and other forums. Seems like one bad sub. I think now I am leaning towards using two 12" subs in separate boxes instead of the two subs being in the same box. This brings up a question. People have recommended having two subs to help with standing waves. Would the SVS PB-12/2 be the same as two separate subs (ex. two PB-12PLUS subs)?

I absolutely cannot wait until I have my Klipsch Theater room setup. I spend many of nights dreaming and drooling on the Klipsch forums and searching Craigs List.

Just to clarify, you are saying that the RC-7's are good for rear speakers? Do you have yours behind or on the side of your listening area? Do you have any photos of your setup that you can share? You have me drooling and dreaming again. LOL.