Velodyne HGS18 and FSR18 owners

[Fast1]

Per another post below, I was made aware that there might be some short comings with the big Velodyne 18s. Apparently, there are some noises that start showing up over time. The only bad experience I have had is popping at high gains. It has only happened a couple times and only on the first day I owned it. I called Velodyne and they said the amp is trying to overpower the driver and to drop the gain. I did so and have had zero problems since. I would really like to run it back up to make sure I am getting everything I can from the sub but afraid of that popping. It only happens on some very hard excursions in movies with nasty lows.

Has anyone had any problems with the 18s? I may want to buy another to get the response where I want it but not sure if they are a good investment. The reason I want another is I am just not happy with the output of the sub. I have decent response above 40hz but below that, I personally think it sucks. I want to bring the other one in and run the Xover very low to help the 40 and down area. My mains are RF7s powered with a Rotel 1090. The 18 keeps up with them but works hard so I figure with two, they can be on cruise keeping up with the 7s.

I think I am also fighting some room problems and will post some details later so maybe someone can help with the acoustics a bit. Room is about 14x32 with the mains and the sub centered on one of the long walls with 8ft ceilings. This IS the only way it can be configured so I have to make do.

[dkalsi]

I would recommend you checking out the avsforums DIY subwoofer section. looking at other people's project, i was able to build two identical subwoofer using TC-Sounds drivers powered with a QSC pro amp - the whole project (including materials, drivers, amp) cost me about $1,400. However, I have absolutely flat response down to about 14Hz. You have to hear/feel it to believe it.

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/?action=view&current=IMG_4702.jpg

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/?action=view&current=DualSubs.jpg

[Fast1]

what type of SPLs are you getting and what size room? I was kinda thinking another 18 might be easier for me but I will do what I must to get nice response in the 20hz area. How big are your drivers? How much power to feed them?

[dkalsi]

I haven't really measured but I wouldnt be surprised if I am exceeding 120dbs at 15Hz with both of them combined. The drivers are 15" SVC TC-2000 with 800watt RMS in about 320 effective liters tuned to 14.5Hz. I am feeding then 1100watts each (although I never use that much).

Come by if you are ever in the DC area.

[dtximages]

whoa! thats some serious subbage.. can you give more info on what you did to make them? also some more pics?

Brandon: I spoke with Velodyne today, they said they would replace my amp for $185. Thats still alot of money considering what I paid for it. They acted kinda ignorant of the problem but they sure were able to tell me what all it "probably" was.. that makes me think that this isnt the first issue theyve had.

[mas]

You are of course welcome to do whatever you desire...

But just a comment or two (who? me?)

I can't but smile over the hysteria over the threat of imminent demise issues with a sub. Especially considering that the model has been out of production for what, 7 or 8 years? And i know of plenty of them in the field, in home and commercial use. I have not been privy to any failures.

Is a failure impossible? No. But are failures falling out of the sky? No. But hey, if someone posted it on the web. It must be true. You might also want to take care that you don't end up waking in a tub of ice reading a note as to where and how to recover your kidneys...

Can someone bottom a sub..ANY sub?. You betcha! In a heartbeat! But the servo is perhaps the best protection available short of not overdriving a sub.

As far as the lack of LF response, may I suggest that you check your source material!

...And not keeping up with RF7s? Plenty of folks are using HGS, etc. units very successfully with LaScalas and KHorns with NO problem whatsoever. And that is despite my radically stressing my system as I listen to Debbie Boone, Helen Reddy and Barney albums at no more than 65 dB. (Hey, I'm not crazy!)

I just thought someone should should balance the hysteria with some real world experience.

My guess is that it is safe to come out from under the bed. []

[Frzninvt]

Take it from someone using a pair of Velodyne's just add a second one and you will be all set. That is a large room for a single subwoofer to cover, in addition the servo control in the Velo's gives them superior performance where it counts - down low.

Forget the 60Hz SPL monster box wonders that sound like ten men beating on the side of a rubber raft, and stick with the bottom dwelling Velodyne's. My volume controls on mine stay on about "4" and the preamp sub level is at "0" and I get plently of bass to support my Klipschorn's.

I tried many a sub before sticking with the top level Velodyne's, all they build is subwoofers and have been doing it alot longer than many other companies out there.

I bought both of mine used for $500 apiece a real bargain considering retail on them was in the $1600 range.

[dkalsi]

Take a look at the following thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=741140&page=1&pp=30

mine are very similar. Any the price I quoted above ($1,400) was for 2 subs. You can build one and use a cheaper amp (EP2500) and you will be more than set.

People at the forums there are really really technical. If you follow the thread above, you can easily build one for yourself.

[Fast1]

You are of course welcome to do whatever you desire...

But just a comment or two (who? me?)

I can't but smile over the hysteria over the threat of imminent demise issues with a sub. Especially considering that the model has been out of production for what, 7 or 8 years? And i know of plenty of them in the field, in home and commercial use. I have not been privy to any failures.

Is a failure impossible? No. But are failures falling out of the sky? No. But hey, if someone posted it on the web. It must be true. You might also want to take care that you don't end up waking in a tub of ice reading a note as to where and how to recover your kidneys...

Can someone bottom a sub..ANY sub?. You betcha! In a heartbeat! But the servo is perhaps the best protection available short of not overdriving a sub.

As far as the lack of LF response, may I suggest that you check your source material!

...And not keeping up with RF7s? Plenty of folks are using HGS, etc. units very successfully with LaScalas and KHorns with NO problem whatsoever. And that is despite my radically stressing my system as I listen to Debbie Boone, Helen Reddy and Barney albums at no more than 65 dB. (Hey, I'm not crazy!)

I just thought someone should should balance the hysteria with some real world experience.

My guess is that it is safe to come out from under the bed. []

I will kinda take your comments with a grain of salt because the entire reason for the thread was to "fish" for any problems with these subs before looking at another unit. I have no doubt there are plenty out there but if they are not getting "used" then that does not tell me much. We all know the Klipsch can get it on and needs good subs to keep up. I am just trying to determine if there are real problems or isolated cases.

[Strabo]

For curiosity sake, can you share with us just how hard you are pushing this sub (xdbs @ xhz @ 3ft)?

[Fast1]

I really wish I could say but I will be buying an SPL meter soon to help with all my questions. When I use test tones, I run the sub to where it just gets no louder so I am thinking that is just all it can do. Even at that, I would not say my house was going to fall down. 60HZ buzzes things pretty good but 30hz and down are there but not "holy sh**". If I knew I could get more without harming the speaker, I would sure do it but kinda seems like I am all maxed out or there are real problems with the speaker. When I talked to Velodyne, they said 1/2 way up is too much on the gain. That is when I asked why the h%%% do you have it on the amp if it should not be used?? I really figured, like my other Velodynes, that the servo would control the output and it just would not play any louder. Seems with this one, under serious excursions like an explosion in a movie, it popped and it popped loud enough that I thought I blew it up.

Velodyne also just mentioned too that " when the servo fails you will know because it will will push and pull your driver until the motor is ripped apart when you just turn it on." great! Hope that things stays working. I was also asking about removing the servo control so the sub could crank more but they say it will not work that way by design. I have not looked at the speaker so I have no idea on that one.

[Frzninvt]

If the servo goes it will not damage the speaker that is nonsense, the sub will emit a high pitch ringing tone that will drive you insane. I had to have the servo in mine replace a few years ago so I know exactly what happens.

You can also bypass the servo circuitry by removing the amp in the rear and disconnecting the small plug that feeds the servo. I don't know who you talked to at Velodyne but they don't know squat about there own subwoofers whoever it was. The sub will be alot boomier and less coherent I know I tried it before I shipped the woofer and amp back to Velodyne for service so I know for sure it will work with the servo disengaged.

You should be able to get plenty of output out of it will the volume below "5" mine are on like "4" I use the crossover in my A/V Pre/Pro and have the one on the speaker turned all the way up. I cross at 80 Hz and let me tell you the twins can make the room feel like it is literally moving beneath your feet. The subwoofer level on the A/V Pre/Pro I usually have at "0" or "+1" depending on the bass content of what I am listening to or watching. Watching The Incredibles will leave you feeling woozy from all the LF content, a bass ache if you will.

I have spoken with Dave Santos the main Customer Service guy at Velodyne and his is all knowledgeable and has helped me greatly in the past. That said I think that you are just overdriving it, you need more subbage for that large room.

My brother in law has an FSR-18 and his makes a strange clunking noise sometimes, I think his was damaged somehow in shipment to him. I would first tighten all the screws on the woofer and the amp on the rear to ensure a good tight seal, you may have an air leak and that could be the source of the bottoming out.

If you are looking for 60Hz boom the Velodyne is not for you it is a sound quality sub and not designed for insane db levels, it is a top performer.

[mas]

I will kinda take your comments with a grain of salt because the entire reason for the thread was to "fish" for any problems with these subs before looking at another unit. I have no doubt there are plenty out there but if they are not getting "used" then that does not tell me much. We all know the Klipsch can get it on and needs good subs to keep up. I am just trying to determine if there are real problems or isolated cases.

What the heck does that mean.

Yeah, do you think I am serious about the program material or levels I facetiously mentioned?!

FEW subs can keep up with the efficiency of the Heritage line and the HGS18 and DD18 series are some of the few.

And if you take that with a "grain of salt", I can see why you are on a fishing expedition. Tell me about how 'technical' other forums are. ROFLMAO

And as far as :

When I talked to Velodyne, they said 1/2 way up is too much on the

gain. That is when I asked why the h%%% do you have it on the amp if

it should not be used?? I really figured, like my other Velodynes,

that the servo would control the output and it just would not play any

louder. Seems with this one, under serious excursions like an

explosion in a movie, it popped and it popped loud enough that I

thought I blew it up.

I am surprised you didn't ask why they even have a volume control.

Doesn't it follow by your logic that they are worthless and that it

should be wired to run at maximum 100% of the time? You need to spend a few minutes learning about the concept of headroom and how a servo feedback circuit works as the above comments indicate that you do not have a clue!

So you were able to bottom out the sub once upon a time. You're probably right. The entire line is faulty and the rest of us that are using them for more than just "explosions" just haven't realized that ours are fried. And with all due respect, its almost a shame to be using such a musical sub for movies and explosions. Yup, go with a non-servo sub and be amazed at how easily any of them are pushed to their excursion limits.

But then you are also unable to get LF response below 40 Hz that doesn't "suck". Instead of looking at everyone else, it sounds like you need to look more closely at what you are doing while the rest of us should take the histrionics of this entire thread with an entire salt lick.

[Fast1]

I was just using the 60hz as a reference. I was thinking that I might have room problems but I look it at a room volume vs sub comparison. Being around auto subs, I know that I am very happy with two 12s and a car a a fraction on the volume so it kinda makes sense that I just need to move MORE air.

I am curious about this clunking noise your bro n law experiences. Is this at high volumes? Mine will only do it at very low hits and I don't think I can do it where the gain is right now. I kinda tuned around that problem. I would really like to know what that clunk is too.

[Fast1]

I will kinda take your comments with a grain of salt because the entire reason for the thread was to "fish" for any problems with these subs before looking at another unit. I have no doubt there are plenty out there but if they are not getting "used" then that does not tell me much. We all know the Klipsch can get it on and needs good subs to keep up. I am just trying to determine if there are real problems or isolated cases.

What the heck does that mean.

Yeah, do you think I am serious about the program material or levels I facetiously mentioned?!

FEW subs can keep up with the efficiency of the Heritage line and the HGS18 and DD18 series are some of the few.

And if you take that with a "grain of salt", I can see why you are on a fishing expedition. Tell me about how 'technical' other forums are. ROFLMAO

And as far as :

When I talked to Velodyne, they said 1/2 way up is too much on the

gain. That is when I asked why the h%%% do you have it on the amp if

it should not be used?? I really figured, like my other Velodynes,

that the servo would control the output and it just would not play any

louder. Seems with this one, under serious excursions like an

explosion in a movie, it popped and it popped loud enough that I

thought I blew it up.

I am surprised you didn't ask why they even have a volume control.

Doesn't it follow by your logic that they are worthless and that it

should be wired to run at maximum 100% of the time? You need to spend a few minutes learning about the concept of headroom and how a servo feedback circuit works as the above comments indicate that you do not have a clue!

So you were able to bottom out the sub once upon a time. You're probably right. The entire line is faulty and the rest of us that are using them for more than just "explosions" just haven't realized that ours are fried. And with all due respect, its almost a shame to be using such a musical sub for movies and explosions. Yup, go with a non-servo sub and be amazed at how easily any of them are pushed to their excursion limits.

But then you are also unable to get LF response below 40 Hz that doesn't "suck". Instead of looking at everyone else, it sounds like you need to look more closely at what you are doing while the rest of us should take the histrionics of this entire thread with an entire salt lick.

I think you need to take your self to the corner in your "sound perfect" office and self medicate with some pisss off. My god, you criticize one for simply trying to learn. Please feel free to grab your angles and back into a door knob. The reason for my entire post was to find out "IF' there are any problems with the 18s that I need to be aware of. JA. The simple reference that I am looking to buy another should be enough to tell you I like the sub enough to buy another. My reference to the gain control indicates that I feel that if this sub cannot handle such high gains, it should not be in the control for protection purposes and YES that is NOT a DA comment though it was merely a joke. I am a senior engineer and your remarks about be incompetent are not needed. I am rarely shown up by a lippy AH with nothing nice to say. I grab new concepts like you grab your C%^* every morning. Find someone else to jack with. Your responses do not help anyone and are nothing but a waste of cyberspace.

[GWSmith]

Ok guys, sorry to see things get heated here........But, I was curious by the title of the topic. I have a Pinnacle DC sub-350... Its an interesting design and the company has recently added much a larger amp to the same double 12" driver design. Its a band bass and acoustic suspension setup in one cab only 14"s square. There is NO limiter on this sub, you can crank it and hear distortion at very high levels but NEVER a bottoming out! Great for movies, plays down to 21 Hz..

In addition to this, I built one of those `water heater' subs! Mine is different. Most all are a long and TUNED concrete former . I went with a SEALED 24" diameter Sono tube. The driver is a SQUARE 15" automotive subwoofer. It stands only 26" high with an interior space of 6 cubic feet which is MAX for the Kicker driver within. It is powered by a Carver 400M (driver is coasting here - cont. rated power is 800 watts!) driven by a Behringer PRO X crossover.

I set this one to START at 18Hz. and down...! I got 101 db on a digital meter (C weighting) at 14.8 Hz. 15 feet away !!!

Also in my collection is a Velodyne F1500-R..... (only 250 watts) This sub plays very low, but is more subtle in nature. I tested this one in a high end audio salon BEFORE purchasing it with a TRUE signal generator.. It managed a strong output down to 15Hz!

I have extensive photos of my `water heater' if any are interested to see.

You all know me by now (68 K'Horn project), my Canon SLR is always busy []

.........Gary

PS. NOT using any subs on my K'Horns...............that stuff is for the theater!

[mas]

I think you need to take your self to the corner in your "sound perfect" office and self medicate with some pisss off. My god, you criticize one for simply trying to learn. Please feel free to grab your angles and back into a door knob. The reason for my entire post was to find out "IF' there are any problems with the 18s that I need to be aware of. JA. The simple reference that I am looking to buy another should be enough to tell you I like the sub enough to buy another. My reference to the gain control indicates that I feel that if this sub cannot handle such high gains, it should not be in the control for protection purposes and YES that is NOT a DA comment though it was merely a joke. I am a senior engineer and your remarks about be incompetent are not needed. I am rarely shown up by a lippy AH with nothing nice to say. I grab new concepts like you grab your C%^* every morning. Find someone else to jack with. Your responses do not help anyone and are nothing but a waste of cyberspace.

RFLMAO

What a hoot.

You are the one who showed up running about worrying about an alleged inherent problem with the Velodyne line based upon hearsay. And then no one else expresses any negative experience with problems (and infact have nice things to say which doesn't fit into your foregone conclusion) and you continue your histrionics.

And you were the one who runs a unit full open and then with a high gain impulse manages to bottom out the speaker once and then proceeds to denigrate support for telling you to turn the gain down. Does the term 'gain structure' mean anything? And a senior engineer!? So how is that train set?

Just trying to learn? Nonsense. If that were the case, then all you needed to post was "Has anyone had a technical problem with their Velodyne FSR, HGS or DD unit?" And after no one posted, as was the case here despite your subsequent lamentations, then you have the answer that we were able to provide. Your histrionics predicated upon your assumptions and misuse of your unit added nothing positive to anyone's understanding.

But your tantrum was cute. Its a shame you couldn't post a video of the kicking and screaming.

But then I note you are now having trouble elsewhere with gear that has a rather fine reputation. Seems like there is only one element in common, and I would suggest focusing on fixing that!

[Fast1]

[Fast1]

If the servo goes it will not damage the speaker that is nonsense, the sub will emit a high pitch ringing tone that will drive you insane. I had to have the servo in mine replace a few years ago so I know exactly what happens.

You can also bypass the servo circuitry by removing the amp in the rear and disconnecting the small plug that feeds the servo. I don't know who you talked to at Velodyne but they don't know squat about there own subwoofers whoever it was. The sub will be alot boomier and less coherent I know I tried it before I shipped the woofer and amp back to Velodyne for service so I know for sure it will work with the servo disengaged.

You should be able to get plenty of output out of it will the volume below "5" mine are on like "4" I use the crossover in my A/V Pre/Pro and have the one on the speaker turned all the way up. I cross at 80 Hz and let me tell you the twins can make the room feel like it is literally moving beneath your feet. The subwoofer level on the A/V Pre/Pro I usually have at "0" or "+1" depending on the bass content of what I am listening to or watching. Watching The Incredibles will leave you feeling woozy from all the LF content, a bass ache if you will.

I have spoken with Dave Santos the main Customer Service guy at Velodyne and his is all knowledgeable and has helped me greatly in the past. That said I think that you are just overdriving it, you need more subbage for that large room.

My brother in law has an FSR-18 and his makes a strange clunking noise sometimes, I think his was damaged somehow in shipment to him. I would first tighten all the screws on the woofer and the amp on the rear to ensure a good tight seal, you may have an air leak and that could be the source of the bottoming out.

If you are looking for 60Hz boom the Velodyne is not for you it is a sound quality sub and not designed for insane db levels, it is a top performer.

I notice in your sig that you have a couple HGS15s, are those what

you are running with your horns? What is funny is the Incredibles is

the same movie where I saw bottoming with my 18. You don't have kids

do you? I am just curious why you selected the 15s instead of the 18s

and if this is just what was available at the time?

I am also

curious what induced the servo failure on your sub or if this was just

out of the blue? Do you remember what that price was to couple a new

servo?

[dkalsi]

"The Incredibles" has CRAZY bass - especially the "dash" scene. If you want to really test the performace of your subs (in a home theater enviroment), try watching:

- "the lab" scene from the movie Pulse (movie is really stupid)

- "Finding Nemo" - the scene where the girl is banging her finger on the fish tank

- "War of the Worlds" - the scence when they show the machine come out the ground for the first time.

All these scenes have incredible low frequency effects in them - they are all good test scenes. The subs i built can handle these scenes with ease. If you were to stop by my house, you would think i am a bass freak but that is definitly not the case - its just that I like bass to have presense - you should be able to feel the effects of the movies.

Check out my mid bass configuration:

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/?action=view&current=MJ18.jpg

- Now, they look crazy, but they really are not. 4 18" woofer tuned to 35Hz - I feed them little power - I don't keep them loud (keeping minimum power) - but I enjoy their mid bass punchyness - I just finished those last night - whole project cost me about 600.