sunfire 7200 or nad m25 amp for my 82 system

[IndyKlipschFan]

BTW, if you do not hear anything... don't waste your $$. The XLR's are supposed to make it quieter...When the pre amp / amp is on, but no signal turned up or for quiet passages. If you hear nothing now.. Don't waste your money too!

[IndyKlipschFan]

BTW that TGP 5 should be a MAJOR upgrade, if nothing else, it is easier to use than the Denon. Denon gets a failing grade for their manuals big time. And their remotes.. are even worse. .

[merkin]

Yes the TGP 5 was a major upgrade. Not only with the sound but also with the ease of use. The remote is working great. Since it has the learning function I can use it to operate all my gear. It manages my satelite DVR, oppo DVD, my benq projector and even my squeeze box. There are a few functions it can't get done but none you need for daily watching. I have Bluejeans RCA cables and they are dead quiet. Maybe I'll save the bucks on the xlr's and get a couple more K-stacks for my forte II surrounds. All three front forte II's have K-stacks and they sound great. By the way what is a 3 foot snake?

[IndyKlipschFan]

http://www.hosatech.com/hosa/products/XLR-800.html

Ask and you shall see the light.... hahahahaha

This is what I use...

[merkin]

Thanks Indy, I see a guitar shop close to me carrys them. They might be a little long. I only need about 2 feet lenght. Also, I don't even use the hdmi swithing on my TGP5. The on screen display doesn't work with the HDMI, only with a S-video and component. Also the sound isn't transfered through HDMI either. You have to use optical or coax for digital audio. I have the DVD player conected through the HDMI, but my Sat/DVR is conected direrect to the projector. Since the remote has learning I can switch inputs on my projector with same remote and I already have it wired both HDMI, component and s video.

[theplummer]

Indy, I'm not positive, but I think my TGII and Signature 5 amp uses Male X Male XLR's, I'm sure they make that combo also, (but, I've been known to be wrong, and I'd check, but I can't get to mine right now).

I wish I could upgrade to the TG5, My TGII has a touch screen remote, seemed really neet when I bought it, but it's not so practical in real life. The screen is hard to see unless you turn it strait to your face, then you have to point it at the unit, it's real easy to touch the wrong area and you can turn the thing off, when all you want to do it turn the volume up slightly. The newer models incorporate buttons and touch screen, probably a better setup.

It's kinda funny, I bought the unit off the floor at Ultimate electronics and it was missing the remote. They had to buy out a new one. The manager was mad, cause he said it cost them $400.00.

[IndyKlipschFan]

try this remote...

http://www.universalremote.com/product_detail.php?model=102

I have the 850.. it has been awesome..

http://www.universalremote.com/product_detail.php?model=38

[theplummer]

Thanks Indy, that remote looks just like the one that was provided with the TGIII, Is that what is supplied with the TGV also?

I'm really glad that more people are experiencing Sunfire and Klipsch, I like this combo at least as much as any tube gear/klipsch that I've heard.

It's a shame that Bob no longer owns the company. I hope quality control doesn't suffer now that it is no longer owned by Mr. Carver. I wonder what his next venture is going to be.

[merkin]

Plummer, That remote is very close to what the TGP 5 has. The TGP5 has a couple more function buttons like master swithes that you caan program to power up about 8 different devices with one push. Couple that with auto on for different devices and it is one button start up.

[IndyKlipschFan]

In my TG IV it looked like it was all programable, but was not.

I guess it was an improvement from the TG III one but the 850 was a major upgrade and does like people said.. Power...then source... and everything else is macro programed in, and it all works. I even have programming to dim my lights in 4 different settings..LOL.

Now if it could also make the pocorn, serve it to me... and bring me a cold one too! hahahahahaha

[Kriton]

Hey, haven't been on in a bit and wanted to throw some 2c in about the XLR-RCA debate with these SUnfire components - I did a lot of research before pickign up my set, and it was my understanding that the Sunfire TGIV XLR's were not really "balanced" - that essentially they were just tied in behind the rear panels to the same putput as the RCA (hence why the plugs are right next to each other) and that you would receive no advantage over using one or the other kind of cable - I use Blue Jean cable XLR's for the sake of argument (and because they were cheap and well made) - but I don't think that there is an difference either in noise control or signal.

I beleive the discussion on the TG's balanced output was on avsforum.com?

Just what I recall.

K

[IndyKlipschFan]

Just the kind of thing people who do not have the equipment start a rumor then spread it as Gospel.. To make it seem not as good.

Ok Page 9 from my manual...

4. XLR Inputs
If your preamplifier has XLR
out puts, connect them to these XLR
inputs. These balanced connections
offers superior noise rejection compared
to the unbalanced RCA inputs.
The female XLR inputs are wired
as follows:
Pin 1 is ground
Pin 2 is positive (hot)
Pin 3 is negative (cold)
Balanced connections pass the
input signal along two conductors. If
there is any external noise and in ter -
ference passing into the audio lines,
both conductors will receive the same
amount of noise. This noise is then
rejected in the balanced input stage of
the Cinema Grand Amplifier.

Roger

[Kriton]

Well actually - the thread over on AVSforum, is for owners's of the Sunfire equipment, and most of those guys know this stuff like the back of their hand. There are several threads which indicate an improvement in sound using the balanced cables, but there are also folks that beleive that the signal is not truly a balanced signal. Not that the Sunfire manual would ever be a little misleading, like when it states that the 400~7 amp can put that amount of wattage continuously into 7 channels? This was the response in 2004 by a Sunfire engineer when pressed for an explanation:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

01-07-04, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by cajunlab

Alan Cooney,

Maybe you can settle the issue regarding the Sunfire Cinema 7 Signature.

How can Sunfire claim 2800-CONTINOUS watts (400x7) when ohms law will not allow that from a 15-amp circuit?

Your response is appreciated.



Great question. The Cinema 7 Signature spec is really a holdover from
our Cinema Grand Signature, which can do 5x400 continuously. I want to
revisit that spec for the 7-channel amp, since I doubt it's truly
capable of doing that into all seven for an extended period (even with
the amp plugged into a two foot, six gauge power cable tied directly to
your breaker panel and with the line fuse wrapped in tin foil to bypass
it -- kids, don't try this at home!) without any output falloff.



I must admit that I'm a bit embarrassed that we weren't more rigorous
about this. It's probably more like any five of the seven continuously
with the same sine wave driving every channel under test. I expect that
Bob just overlooked the 'continuous' detail when he reused some of the
text from the five channel amp spec sheet. We'll look into it after we
all get back from CES.



Now with that really straight response being said, I feel compelled to
add that a 'continuous all channels' rating is really a ridiculous spec
anyhow. NO ONE listens to one of our amps with a single, in-phase sine
wave driving all channels at full rated power. NO ONE (for anyone who
does, do you still have windows in your house? Can you hear anything
with your shredded eardrums or your melted speakers?)



Seriously, though, for ANY real-world music, motion picture soundtrack,
or noise source, the program content mostly isn't in phase or
correlated among the channels. You really can run listenable real-world
material at full power on all channels CONTINUOUSLY with this amp. All
day, all week, all year. No problem. That's what our amps are made to
do. And they do it extremely well, generating gobs of power into more
difficult loads and with far less heat than anything on the market.



Lab ratings for big amps like this really should include some sort of
SOA/time-based curve -- rather like other high-power equipment such as
arc welders. I'll think about that as we will revisit the spec (there's
finally a use for that, "specifications subject to change without
notice" line in the fine print) and make it more appropriate.



Again, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in a spec that's only meaningful
under lab conditions. The Sunfire Cinema Seven Signature will deliver a
truly effortless and dynamic 400x7 all day long in your listening room.




Regards,

Alan Cooney

Sunfire

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

NOW, with the understanding that I purchased and OWN the equipment, I was merely pointing out that there was a different opinion out there on the balanced ins and outs, not that it should matter except for those folks who don't want to spend a jackload for cables. OH, and I agree with Mr. Cooney (above), gobs of power for my use, even if they can't do 2800 watts continuous (400 watts into 7 channels), and even though my *manual* says it can...

K

[theplummer]

I am in no way an expert, or even a novice with regards to the electronics, but I can difinitively say, 100%, without a doubt, convinced that using the XLR cables does lower the noise floor tremendously, on my Sunfire Theater Grand II and Sunfire signature Cinema Grand Amp. And I'm using super el-chepo Rat Shack XLR cables.

Edit. I just had a thought about the XLR's being not properly installed on the Theater Grand, and the evidence is that they are located right next to the RCA jacks on the back. Don't the XLR's just need to have the ground lug grounded to the chassis, to complete the proper installation of the XLR. That means that the positive and negative could be "Jumped" to the XLR's and ground the ground wire to the Chassis on both units, therefore completing the noise cancellation effect desired.

I am a firm believer in Bob Carver's ability as a designer. If you don't, ask that you take ten minutes and look Bob Carver up on Wikipedia. There's a copy of an article from Stereophile Magazine from the late 1980's that I think most would find interesting. Needless to say Mr. Carver challenged Stereophile to a Amp duel and they accepted and had to concede defeat. The man is a electrical genious.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I have talked to Alan Cooney too. His quote of "
Seriously, though, for ANY real-world music, motion picture soundtrack,
or noise source, the program content mostly isn't in phase or
correlated among the channels. You really can run listenable real-world
material at full power on all channels CONTINUOUSLY with this amp. All
day, all week, all year. No problem. That's what our amps are made to
do. And they do it extremely well, generating gobs of power into more
difficult loads and with far less heat than anything on the market."

I agree with this too..

But this sais nothing about the balanced thing you said. And having the RCA conectors close to it, means nothing... And I am not trying to be a jerk here... just be careful with what people say or support on the internet. If they do not like a piece of gear, for whatever reason, it's always easier to just bash it or start spreading rumors. And you have it too? My guess again is it is Balanced.. Otherwise, why would you hear a improvement with XLR's anyhow?

.

[Kriton]

My quote of Mr. Cooney was only to show that Sunfire is not above hype in their claims, just like any other manufacturer - so unless someone has actually torn their Sunfire down, or Mr. Cooney wants to weigh in about the nature of balanced connections, there are still two opinions out there, so new purchasers need to do their own research, if they need to get to the bottom of it...

I personally didn't hear an improvement with xlr versus RCA, I bought them because of the *promise* of better sound, just to be sure - I ran my gear with RCA's for a while before the xlrs - and the difference to me was negligible, to my ears - and the RCA's I was using were el cheapo ratshack interconnects too. SO, again, anyone's mileage may vary...The xlr snake idea is great, as I have cables everywhere...I recommend forprice and build the Blue Jean interconnects, you can get them anyway you want and good lengths too.

I bought the Sunfire equipment for the same reason that I bought Klipsch, for the man that made them as much as the sound - I respect both these guys tremendously, and have shown that with my equipment. Not trying to run either down, just mentioned what I had read. I also read that the President of France was a shemale too, don't make it true - just makes it the Internet.

One of you tech guys tear your Sunfire up and tell us definitively!

Hey here is another obeservation - I have the 400~7 and TGIV, right - the TGIV has outputs for Front(2), Rear(2) Center(1), Rear Effect channels (2) AND Side effect channels(2) and subwoofer out (.1) for a total of 9.1 possible channels (yes, I know the read effect and side axis "channels" are really just matrixed front and rears, but stay with me here). The 400~7 only has inputs for 7.1 (no side axis inputs or outputs) - Why make the TGIV with 9 and the top amp with 7? Never was able to figure that out...

K

[theplummer]

My quote of Mr. Cooney was only to show that Sunfire is not above hype in their claims, just like any other manufacturer - so unless someone has actually torn their Sunfire down, or Mr. Cooney wants to weigh in about the nature of balanced connections, there are still two opinions out there, so new purchasers need to do their own research, if they need to get to the bottom of it...

I haven't torn my TGII down personally, but I did have a light go out in mine and I took it to Alpha-Tech in St. Louis. They work on lots of high end gear. I saw lots of McInosh there while I was there dropping and picking up, I've used them with my old ADCOM stuff for years. When I picked up my TGII, the service tech whom worked on the unit made it a point to come to the counter and complement about what a superior unit the TGII was. He said that there was a lot of high end stuff in it and it was put together with a very high quality standard. The issue of the XLR's did not come up though, but I think if they weren't done right, the tech would have pointed that out.

I personally didn't hear an improvement with xlr versus RCA, I bought them because of the *promise* of better sound, just to be sure - I ran my gear with RCA's for a while before the xlrs - and the difference to me was negligible, to my ears - and the RCA's I was using were el cheapo ratshack interconnects too. SO, again, anyone's mileage may vary...The xlr snake idea is great, as I have cables everywhere...I recommend forprice and build the Blue Jean interconnects, you can get them anyway you want and good lengths too.

When I bought my unit, the salesman was trying to sell me the 1meter Monster Cable XLR's for over $100 a click. He was extremely "Hard Sell" on those. I flat told him he was stupid. There was no way I was going to spend $500 for cables that weren't going to do one bit of difference. I used my unit with RCA's for at least two years before trying the XLR's. One day, in a tweeking mood, after reading the owners manual and it recommended the XLR's, I drove to Rat Shack and bought them. Wow, the noise floor fell off like a brick through wet tissue paper.....and I was using fairly expensive RCA's.

I bought the Sunfire equipment for the same reason that I bought Klipsch, for the man that made them as much as the sound - I respect both these guys tremendously, and have shown that with my equipment. Not trying to run either down, just mentioned what I had read. I also read that the President of France was a *** too, don't make it true - just makes it the Internet.

One of you tech guys tear your Sunfire up and tell us definitively!

Hey here is another obeservation - I have the 400~7 and TGIV, right - the TGIV has outputs for Front(2), Rear(2) Center(1), Rear Effect channels (2) AND Side effect channels(2) and subwoofer out (.1) for a total of 9.1 possible channels (yes, I know the read effect and side axis "channels" are really just matrixed front and rears, but stay with me here). The 400~7 only has inputs for 7.1 (no side axis inputs or outputs) - Why make the TGIV with 9 and the top amp with 7? Never was able to figure that out...

I always thought that silly also, as my TGII is a five channel surround. The manual calls the extra two channes (7 Axis). They are only supported by RCA jacks and are said to be front side channels ment to compliment the Left, Center, right, and surround channels. The manual makes no mention of where the speakers need to be positioned (guess that's for you to figure out). I've always wanted to try it, and I have a ADCOM amp and an extra pair of Heresy II's that aren't being used right now, but WAF throws a fit every time I even start to fiddle with the electronics. I guess that's kind of like his Hologram feature. If you like it, use it. I personally love that when listening to stereo CD's through the pro-logic electronics.

K

[yriezman]

just bought the 7200 , happy me

thx guys for all the replays and i heard the nad not for me too much pricy

and the sound was ok but i didnt like that he doesnt have standby mode (audio) like the sunfire.

next project is the rs52 and sunfire sub.

bye bye for now

oow the 7200 will be deliverd at 24-26 this month , will post pic

[IndyKlipschFan]

Very cool! I have a good feeling you will be happy!

Let us know what you think too!