......so is it fair now to declare Blu Ray the winner of the Format War?

[mas]

You have GOT to be kidding me.... your other posts - while utopian - certainly show more brains than this statement. You are comparing apples and t-bone steaks, and does not support your argument at all. People are buying up-converting decks because they do not want to replace their EXISTING SD library which they have spent years and thousands of dollars on so they can watch it through their out-dated 16:9 format HDTV while waiting for the HD/BR war to settle. C'mon man... you think just because an HD format is settled upon that everyone is just going to chuck their entire SD DVD collection and start over? Maybe you have money to whiz away like that - but the majority of consumers do not.

Where do you get the idea that I think that only HD streaming is the future, or that the developing market models demand only HD?

Don't saddle me with your hallucination. And so upscaling players are ONLY going to those who have extensive libraries of standard DVDs? Oh...Upscaling DVD players are the norm. There are few non-upscaling DVD players! And they offer a MUCH greater value proposition than investing in HD players with their limited libraries.

I am looking at the marketplace from a business perspective, applying SWOT/TOWS models while being cognizant of developing markets and evolving business models.

And just like music, a growing percentage of the market is online
delivery which has a much greater market share than HD content. The
same is true of video. And they are completely free to stream all sorts
of evolutionary HD compression technologies in the meantime - just as
cable, the telcos and satellite have been doing who also have a much
larger market share than HD-DVD or BluRay hard copy deliverables.

The simple reason that online deliverables are a much better model is that the supply chain efficecies and costs are dramatically better than that of hard copy deliverables. In EVERY catagory. So how is Blockbuster doing with only BluRay hard copy deliverables? Swimmingly I would say...as in, how long can they tread water?

But in the end, I am fascinated that the basic NetFlix business model - which has from the beginning been transitional and dealing only with the mail to the degree that they have to, with the FULL intent to move to online deliverbles as a mature model - is seen to be insufficient and inadequate compared to your forward thinking brick and mortar Blockbuster model focused on hard copy deliverables.

Hurry and buy up more of that BlockBuster stock! As if I am wroing and you are right, they are about to make a huge comeback based upon having BluRay hard copies!

Right.....

Believe whatever you like. We will see what form the forward thinking business models take and how the market develops. And just like personal satellites, then cable, then DBS (direct broadcast satellite), online delivery is the next large scale distributed system which leverages exissting technology, a ubiquitous online community, and efficient and cost effective supply chain management benefits. Building more brick and mortar stores, distribution centers, and having larger fleets of trucks is not the future. Just ask Blockbuster.

[Guest srobak]

Where do you get the idea that I think that only HD streaming is the future, or that the developing market models demand only HD?

From your previous posts in other threads where you argued EXACTLY that.

Don't saddle me with your hallucination. And so upscaling players are ONLY going to those who have extensive libraries of standard DVDs? Oh...Upscaling DVD players are the norm. There are few non-upscaling DVD players! And they offer a MUCH greater value proposition than investing in HD players with their limited libraries.

Flatly disagree. Limited library or not - it still opens MORE library potentials than just an SD upscaler. Hate to break it to you - but the HD-A2 and subsequent sub-$200 models > your Oppo, across the board... quality, upscaling, color, and library size.

Hurry and buy up more of that BlockBuster stock! As if I am wroing and you are right, they are about to make a huge comeback based upon having BluRay hard copies!

This statement alone proves that you simply do not read other peoples posts. I have said for months that BB was closing stores faster than you can count because of services like Netflix and On Demand. I also said that I give it 5 years... 8 on the outside - before BB is nothing more than a recognized name-brand, kinda like how Chi-chi's is today... an out of business company that someone else has the rights to the name of, and uses it to sell product. BB's days are numbered... I told you this before - and you argued with me. Now you are trying you use what I said as an argument against me.

This isn't the first time, either... and I can't have a discussion with someone who doesn't read what the hell they are discussing or arguing about.

[mas]

According to the latest polling results, HD accounts for only 13.7% of households. (Look up the Nielsen taliies)

Right... because Nielsen gives a remotely accurate representation of what is going on. Do you participate in any Nielsen Media Research programs or polls? Does ANYONE you know? I didn't think so. Case in point... northeastern Illinois - specifically - the greather Chicagoland area - covering a grid encompassing nearly 20 million people samples 800 (yes, EIGHT HUNDRED) homes, and then sells the results off as being an accurate representation of the greater numbers of the entire region. Even at 4 people per home that is only 3200people. 3200 representing 20 million, and that is supposed to be accurate? Right.

HD streaming as a market percentage at this point is moot. Even if it were fully implimented, it still would be but a percentage of a small percentage - and the entire topic, HD included not worth the discussion from a business perspective.

Why when I said the exact same thing in response to you saying it was the next wave and that all other forms of hd media are dead - you argued with me about it?

Huh?

I have dealt with Nielsen when with Viacom. In fact, I personally modified the addressable converters for their use.

And obviously you are not familiar with statistical sampling methods - which like statistical process control do NOT involve esting each component! I am not going to waste my time explaining statistical analysis methodology.

OK, they are wrong. BluRay is really in 9 out of 10 homes and by now they have watched all 47 available movies including all of the Adam Sandler movies 3 times - no wonder they are not excited about upgrading their BluRay players this fall to profile 2! But then, per Sony, "early adopters expect this" - and i guess they have much more money to burn than brains.

My focus has been on the business models that leverage the economies of online deliverables, of ANY FORMAT versus hard copy! I have NEVER been a proponent pushing HD over SD! NEVER! Ask DamonPayne! HD is at best a niche market and will reman so for a while. If this changes , then the deliverables can follow! And only you and a few fanboys keep implying that HD can only be HD-DVD or BluRay. I have not! The networks, telcos, cable and DBS suppliers have been doing fine with this. And there is nothing to prevent ala carte services to do the same.

So now I an a proponent of HD to the exclusion of the SD and upscaled SD market!? OK scarecrow, figure out which direction you want to go next. It doesn't mater to me, as the delivery method is what trumps the hard copy deliverables, be it SD, intermediate SD/HD or full blown HD. 'My' business model kicks 'your' traditional business model.

This discussion has devolved into rampant hallucination. Next thing I will be accused of will be of having advocated live theater in the home over electronic communication!

And here is some news that will utterly destroy your ego.

If I happen to post after you and perhaps, yes perhaps, respond to something you said, it is at best a coincidence. I respond to the general topic at hand - and maybe even to a completely divergent tangent.

You do NOT occupy all of my thoughts. Surprised? I respond to anything that has already been posted by ANYONE or in reference to other ideas that I have read elsewhere.

So your insistence that everything is in response to something you said, or whether it agress or disagrees is coincidence. Its not about you! If it agrees, great, if it disagrees, tough. Deal with it. And get over yourself. Geesh! This is creepy!

My entire POV has been towards the economies of disruptive technologies and disruptve buisness models that leverage such technology. These ideas are from Christensen and Jos. Schumpeter - not YOU. And while i myself tend to be a technoid, my interest is far more in the applied business models that leverage such technology, as simply focusing on a particular technology often misses the boat - as has been repeatedly demonstated as the technoids still stand about scratching and wondering how the superior technology lost to what they considered a lesser technology.Obviously they have failed to understand the greater context. So, if you want to debate those ideas, go read their books and discover what they talked about!

.

[anarchist]

It is hard to have a straight-up debate with Mas because he always changes his position and argues points (using far more verbosity than necessary) you never made.

Two examples:

The tape discussion. The entire point is tape was an archaic medium, the technology wizards declared it dead and it never happened. This is analogous to the current situation where the archaic medium (hard copy video) is declared dead by the "technology wizards." This doesn't bolster your argument, mas, it destroys it - although you are trying to spin it as best as you can.

The red herring about high definition. No one here, mas, is mistaking your position and there is no reason for debating a point we didn't make. You believe streaming video has effectively killed "hard copy video." You are wrong. No need to argue about Blu-ray, HD-DVD or anything else because that is not the argument. The argument is streaming video is not replacing anything, anytime soon. You can live at CES and that isn't going to change.

So argue about business models and argue about Blu-rays market share compared to SD. They are fallacious arguments but if they make you feel like you "won" a debate with yourself, I am thrilled for you.

Here is the bottom line. The question was has blu-ray won the format wars. The scope of the discussion is HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray has won that war. All of your other extraneous arguments are just that - extraneous and fallacious. Streaming video is neither part of the conversation nor viable as a means of eliminating hard-copy video.

I remember when guys like you argued the internet was going to turn retailing on its head (12+ years ago) and the brick & mortars were doomed. They were wrong as you are. You simply don't grasp human nature. Yes, now argue how certain retailers have gone out of business. Whoo hoo! That was happening long before the internet ever existed.

Game over, man. Game over.

Video killed the radio star.

[mas]

You know, what is amazing about a troll such as you is that you show up late and claim to have framed the debate.

I have been consistent in my position relative to HD recorded content for almost a year.

And my POV has never been HD-DVD versus BluRay, except to compare their strategic marketing positions. I technologically prefer BluRay, but recognize the strategic advantages HD-DVD has over BluRay in leveraging existing production technologies and compatibility. And I find Sony's strategic marketing strategies to be an utter mess.

Regarding the HD format war, neither has won. The format is still splintered, BluRay players aren't even a mature machine and won't even be available in the form they were first intended until this fall! And the VAST majority of people have no clue what is happening and few are willing to spend the absurd amounts required to enter into the BluRay market. So whatever 'victory' you attribute to them is Pyrrhic as they sit there with a rather pathetic of the total marketshare. And if people want HD they have been finding it in many other available forms from the various content providers - other than HD-DVD or BR.

And regarding the overall market development, the continuing chaos in the HD market which is nowhere near being over (despite what the fanboys say!) has still resulted in a common observation only again reinforced by what Steve Jobs said (and I could give a rat's @ss what you think of Steve Jobs, it couldn't be any less what I think of your trolling.)

And he expressed what the message of MANY, including myself has been for over a year,as video is simply running behind audio in time...

And that is:

While Blu-ray may have possibly won
the war over HD DVD, in the end its likely not going
to matter with the advent of HD downloads.

And this is completely consistent with what many analysts have said that the only thing the
battle may have yielded is enough time for streaming HD to become a
viable option.

No where did i say that HD download are commencing immediately. Rather i cited many large businesses announcing their intentions to enter the market - some in the near term, including NetFlix. And nowhere have i insisted that only HD downloads would pose a threat to market share in the larger video market, but that even SD streaming will further marginalize HD hard copies as it presents but one more alternative to HD hard copies and one less reason for someone to go and buy physical media.

So declare whomever you like to be the winner. Argue tape versus whatever. i know exactly what I meant. And , and you demonstrate, I mistakenly assumed that one understood the context in which tape was 'declared dead' - as It was the dominant market player, just as standard DVDs are now! And HD recorded material has no more killed standard DVDs than did recordable digital media in the form of CDs or DVDs kill tape. So declaring the death of tape was just a premature as the 'winner of the the HD format war' killing or supplanting DVDs.

But then you still have your panties in a wad as I had the audacity to maintain that both tube and SS amps, if operated within their linear operting regions, can sound fine.

And quite frankly, you bore me. If you want to discuss the ideas that Christenson and Schumpeter proposed and which have dominated the last 20 years of business deveopment, fine. If you want to buy a BR player, fine. But don't try to tell me what I think or what I have said, as you have enough trouble figuring out what that unorganized mass of ganglion that passes as a brain of yours is doing, let alone thinking.

So, you're right...game over. Go find someone else to play with. I'm not keen on playing with sociopaths.

[Guest srobak]

I have dealt with Nielsen when with Viacom. In fact, I personally modified the addressable converters for their use.

Gratz. I have been involved far closer than that. And no, I don't want a cookie.

And obviously you are not familiar with statistical sampling methods - which like statistical process control do NOT involve esting each component! I am not going to waste my time explaining statistical analysis methodology.

You don't need to... trust me when I have it nailed down far better than you ever could. That being said - their employment of it is not only very loosely based upon tried and tested methodology, but also their "model" of it is horribly flawed.

OK, they are wrong. BluRay is really in 9 out of 10 homes {...}

PAY attention and quite warping things completely out of context and scope so it fits your own needs. Go back and figure it out.

If I happen to post after you and perhaps, yes perhaps, respond to something you said, it is at best a coincidence. I respond to the general topic at hand - and maybe even to a completely divergent tangent.

I am talking about things in which you quoted me directly and then posted a followup book, heading in a completely different direction - only coming back to it 3 or 4 threads later on the complete OTHER side of the same bloody fence. It's called double-talk - and makes you appear as nothing more than argumentative and the perpetual devil's advocate.

So your insistence that everything is inresponse to something you said, or whether it agress or disagrees is coincidence. Its not about you! If it agrees, great, if it disagrees, tough. Deal with it. And get over yourself. Geesh! This is creepy!

I couldn't agree more. How you extrapolate that I am fixating on you vs. noting that you contradict yourself on a regular basis is not just creepy, but also mind-boggling... could you be any more self-absorbed?

My entire POV has been towards the economies of disruptive technologies and disruptve buisness models that leverage such technology.

Once and for all - it's not "disruptive". It is called BUSINESS. It is called COMPETITION. It is called CAPITALISM. Got news for you - just because you didn't have your hands on something, don't like it or are not otherwise involved does not make it disruptive by any sense. It is here. It is wide-spread to the masses. It IS in fact real, and it is making people money. GOBS of money. Disruptive means "against the norm". Sorry to say - but it IS the norm. Welcome to Earth.

[damonrpayne]

... and my argument continues to be:

#1 HD downloads are not viable now for 99.999% of the US populace, whereas 50% of the US populace DOES have an HDTV

#2 HD downloads are inferior to the packaged product in every single aspect except maybe convienience, and that is debatable due to #1

#3 HD packaged media will continue to gain in market share, maturity, and more low cost options will present themselvesin far less time than it takes them to run fiber to my house

Bandwidth WILL get there, but when and with what kind of HD product riding on it remains to be seen.

To Anarchist's point, in terms of the high def optical disk format war, Blu-Ray has won. Start another thread entitled "Why HD downloads will kick everyone's ***" or something

[Guest srobak]

It is hard to have a straight-up debate with Mas because he always changes his position and argues points (using far more verbosity than necessary) you never made.

Exactly. That is by far the most simple breakdown of this thing I have read to date. Thank you for posting it in not so many words... I would have wasted half a forum page trying to demonstrate exactly that.

Streaming video is neither part of the conversation nor viable as a means of eliminating hard-copy video.

Agreed. Same as it was for the first 7 to 8 years of RIAA whining about MP3s. Truth be told - CD sales were UP - significantly so - during the dawn of p2p. the number of top selling artists was up nearly three-fold from the previous 10 years as well. The bottom line of that story is that people WANT hard copies... factory, studio hard copies. Streaming media and p2p and the legal ability to burn your own copy of it has not and will not change this fact, nor the one that this will continue to be the majority market share for the long-term future.

Yes, now argue how certain retailers have gone out of business. Whoo hoo! That was happening long before the internet ever existed.

Also agreed... thus has been human and business nature since the beginning of currency. Yet amazingly enough - more retailers are growing to a massive scale these days than ever before in history. How could that be possible?

[Guest srobak]

While Blu-ray may have possibly won
the war over HD DVD, in the end its likely not going
to matter with the advent of HD downloads.

Apples and T-bone steaks again. Stay on target... stay on target!

[Guest srobak]

Bandwidth WILL get there, but when and with what kind of HD product riding on it remains to be seen.

Careful... mas will yell at you that the bandwidth is there (which technically is true), but as we debated in the other forum - there is significant cost, equipment upgrade/replacement and labor involved in bringing that to your door, or for content holders to distribute it en masse to the numbers that mas seems unable to grasp (at least in one thread. In another thread - then he seems to acknowledge it... shoot... moving.. target)

That aside - by the time it does get to that point - "HD" will have evolved to a whole other beast with triple the frame-rate and quadruple the pixel density, or something equally insane.

Start another thread entitled "Why HD downloads will kick everyone's ***" or something

*laughs* now THAT's funny stuff.

BTW - you are dead-on with your other points.

[mas]

My entire POV has been towards the economies of disruptive technologies and disruptve buisness models that leverage such technology.

Once and for all - it's not "disruptive". It is called BUSINESS. It is called COMPETITION. It is called CAPITALISM. Got news for you - just because you didn't have your hands on something, don't like it or are not otherwise involved does not make it disruptive by any sense. It is here. It is wide-spread to the masses. It IS in fact real, and it is making people money. GOBS of money. Welcome to Earth.

ROFLMAO

You are clueless.

But I will give you credit for making my day! i haven't laughed so hard in a while1

You obviously are not familiar with Clayton Christiansen's Disruptive technology and Disruptive Innovation theories nor Schumpeter's Creative Destruction concepts.

And if you aren't even familiar with the concept, its no wonder you don't understand the implications.

And no, i have not, nor am I even going to try to explain it to you. My references are based upon at least a basic understanding of some of the reasons and basis behind evolving business models, yet you have no clue. And you wonder why you don't get it.

Think whatever you like. Predicated on what you don't know, it should be fascinating.

So tell me about BUSINESS, COMPETITION, and CAPITALISM....ROFLMAO

Oh, and burning copies of video downloads is illegal? How wrong you are, and there is legal precidence and protection with sources already cited.

And even CES estimated HDTVs at only 35% penetration

And while there indeed does need some work to be done to stream HD-DVD or BluRay content, SD and various other enhanced codecs can be.

Enjoy your 8 foot of Best buy shelf space. And be sure to buy some Blockbuster stock! They are proving your right as we speak! In fact, they may even, no...they are closing still more stores... ooops!

So, how many of you who don't have PS3s are going to be replacing your BR players? What a deal. But then, "It was HD-DVD's fault.".

[Guest srobak]

You go on ahead and swallow other people's theories whole... I'll stick with reality... what is happening in people's homes and in the consumer markets. You can keep on with... Utopia.

[mas]

You go on ahead and swallow other people's theories whole... I'll stick with reality... what is happening in people's homes and in the consumer markets. You can keep on with... Utopia.

ROFLMAO!

You don't even know what they are!

Utopia my @ss. They are business reality. Slope analysis, value pricing models, etc. Basic analytical and operational tools. But you are clueless.

[anarchist]

mas,

it is rather pathetic that whenever one of your inane arguments is ridiculed for the mass of miscontrued thoughts, fallacies, and self-aggrandizing, non-sensical rant it is, you immediately respond with more ludicrous, self-absorbed personal insults with no basis in fact.

I didn't frame the argument Mr. Johnny-come-lately. The title of the thread framed the argument. Your inability to even recognize the discussion, simply exemplifies your need to boast about your ill-conceived qualifications.

How many jobs have you held? You are truly a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.

I, for one, and it appears several other participants here don't need to validate ourselves by seeking your approval. While you, it seems, bear such a large insecurity complex, you are compelled to belittle others to make yourself feel better about your own miserable, menial life and the delusions of technical prowess that accompany it.

[mas]

Ah yes, tell me about how you choose to debate...

The fact is, this topic is but a small part of a continuing dialogue regarding all things home theater and HD.

And the fact that i am refering to something that does have basis in fact, but that i fail to present all of the underlying concepts does not render the ideas nonsense as you and at least one other assume they are. As you don't debate. you pull statements out of a MUCH larger context without regard to where they have been discussed before or to their larger reference.

And you are right about one thing, you have no idea as to my educational nor professional background. But as usual, that doen't stop you from jumping to conclusions.

And when I do mention a concept or idea, it is hilarious to watch those who have no clue to what it refers cite things that reinforce the very issue to which one disagrees while having no idea as to the significance.

Your trying to tell me what my perspective on the issue is is hilarious. And yes, you do try to do this as a Johnny Come Lately! As I said, the only change posited in this thread is Warner Bros shifting to distributing only one format, a company that controls only 20% of the recorded market, as the underlying costs to duplicate the same material on at least 3 formats is prhibitively expensive - especially when it only results in generally one sale per 'person'. thus the duplicated supply chain management costs are not efficiently spent.

Business models. strategic management , DVD versus HD, HD-DVD vers BluRy, etc. etc. etc. have all been discussed at length in the last year. And you, along with one other, attempts to reduce the topic to only the reactions posted in this thread. And besides, if the outcome were so self-evident, why do you need to discuss it at all?

Oh, but then you fail to mention business models and the implications entirely.

And my perspective on the topic is that of a larger market perspective, as i am not a fanboy in this debate, and i don't have a horse in the race, hasn't changed.

if BluRay is indeed the winner in the format war over HD-DVD - which is not a certainty - in the end its likely not going
to matter with the advent of HD downloads - an opinion reflectd by MANY industry analysts who have said that the only thing the
battle may have yielded is enough time for streaming HD to become a
viable option.

And in the larger video market, the advent of SD downloads will present further pressure on an already fragmented market where the perveyors of hard copy deliverales are finding themselves further marginalized. And the trend will continue.

And having said that, NO, I have never said nor implied that the hard copy market will disappear! But it will become further marginalized, just as is happening in the music industry - and which is predicted to accelerate in the music industry - despite its further fracturing into a few alternative boutique segments.

The A/V market, like almost all business, is becoming further reliant on the virtual marketplace and around more efficient and effective supply chain delivery. And as such, more reliant upon downloads. And this trend will continue.

Sorry if this upsets you, but it is nevertheless true. Oh, and the Internet was a example of a disruptive technology that provided for a radical as opposd to evolutionary (a jump discontinuity as opposed to a linear transition. if you will) element in business commerce. And with further convergence and penetration, the 2nd wave of the 'Internet revolution' will prove to be even more disruptive than the first phase introduced by the advent of the browser.

And no, this concept is not of my own invention either. But i am sure that won't stop you from taking something else to which you don't understand the reference out of context and try to prove that it contradicts something else.

So, if you want to talk about the concepts, please try it. But then you seldom do, do you?

[damonrpayne]

Ah yes, tell me about how you choose to debate...

The fact is, this topic is but a small part of a continuing dialogue regarding all things home theater and HD.

And the fact that i am refering to something that does have basis in fact, but that i fail to present all of the underlying concepts does not render the ideas nonsense as you and at least one other assume they are. As you don't debate. you pull statements out of a MUCH larger context without regard to where they have been discussed before or to their larger reference.

And you are right about one thing, you have no idea as to my educational nor professional background. But as usual, that doen't stop you from jumping to conclusions.

And when I do mention a concept or idea, it is hilarious to watch those who have no clue to what it refers cite things that reinforce the very issue to which one disagrees while having no idea as to the significance.

Your trying to tell me what my perspective on the issue is is hilarious. And yes, you do try to do this as a Johnny Come Lately! As I said, the only change posited in this thread is Warner Bros shifting to distributing only one format, a company that controls only 20% of the recorded market, as the underlying costs to duplicate the same material on at least 3 formats is prhibitively expensive - especially when it only results in generally one sale per 'person'. thus the duplicated supply chain management costs are not efficiently spent.

Business models. strategic management , DVD versus HD, HD-DVD vers BluRy, etc. etc. etc. have all been discussed at length in the last year. And you, along with one other, attempts to reduce the topic to only the reactions posted in this thread. And besides, if the outcome were so self-evident, why do you need to discuss it at all?

And my perspective on the topic is tht of a larger market perspective, as i am not a fanboy in this debate, and i don't have a horse in the race, hasn't changed.

if BluRay is indeed the winner in the format war over HD-DVD - which is not a certainty - in the end its likely not going to matter with the advent of HD downloads - an opinion refelectd by MANY industry analysts who have said that the only thing the battle may have yielded is enough time for streaming HD to become a viable option.

And in the larger video market, the advent of SD downloads will present further pressure on an already fragmented market where the perveyors of hard copy deliverales are finding themselves further marginalized. And the trend will continue.

And having said that, NO, I have never said nor implied tht the hard copy market will disappear! But it will become further marginalized, just as is happening in the music industry - and which is predicted to accelerate in the music industry - despite its further fracturing into a few alternative boutique segments.

The A/V market, like almost all business, is becoming further reliant on the virtual marketplace and around more efficient and effective supply chain delivery. And as such, more reliant upon downloads. And this trend will continue.

Sorry if this upsets you, but it is nevertheless true. Oh, and the Internet was a example of a disruptive technology that provided for a radical as opposd to evolutionary (a jump discontinuity as opposed to a linear transition. if you will) element in business commerce. And with further convergence and penetration, the 2nd wave of the 'Internet revolution' will prove to be even more disruptive than the first phase introduced by the advent of the browser.

And no, this concept is not of my own invention either. But i am sure that won't stop you from taking something else to which you don't understand the reference out of context and try to prove that it contradicts something else.

So, if you want to talk about the concepts, please try it. But then you seldom do, do you?

Hah! The model-view-presenter design pattern is more different than the model-view-controller than you realize. In addition to your comments about the life cycle of the domain model, the component who initializes an action must be considered! In the classical Smalltalk MVC pattern, the Controller actually fills the role of responding to user events, updating the model, and notifying zero or more Views that the model has changed. In the newer MVP way, we find that it's useful (in certain display technologies) to allow the View to initially respond to the user input and delegate action to the Presenter. This makes the assumption that every action initialized will have a view of some kind, whereas in the Model View Controller pattern there could be inputs that never make it to a view of any kind. If we're going to talk seperation of concerns for complex GUI interactions, let's stick to the point!

[Guest srobak]

And having said that, NO, I have never said nor implied that the hard copy market will disappear! But it will become further marginalized, just as is happening in the music industry

Music media (hard copy) sales are UP, not DOWN - despite what you and RIAA are claiming. Please go back and look at the last 10 years of annual sales and the number of artists making those sales, as reported in trade rags such as Billboard. Like it or not - agree with it or not - people still want factory, studio, hard media, just as they will in the video/movie market for quite the foreseable future. I have already stated that in this thread, and others.

[Mikekid]

Is this getting RIDICULOUS or what? [|-)]

[anarchist]

mas,

perhaps you have failed to take your medication and your memory is not doing so well?

i do know your education and job history, in part, as you felt compelled to justify your trivial contributions to past discussions by introducing them into the conversation. i have friends who couldn't hold a job who demonstrated more job stability than you have, but I digress.

the topic is did Blu-Ray win the format war. all of the other "points" you offer for pontification are merely that and not the subject of this particular thread no matter if you have had an interest in pipe dreams for the last year. now i realize the streaming discussion also occured in another thread and while i didn't participate at length, i do recall your argument was discredited soundly there as well.

it is more than acceptable for you to believe, and rationalize your belief, all you want. you read some flyers and they tout streaming technology is going to revolutionize the planet and hard copy will be marginalized and you start jonesing. cool. you would have fit right in 40 years ago insisting man would be routinely colonizing new planets.

others realize the situation doesn't fit the neat little model you have bought into, recognize the technical limitations and most importantly human behavior and they disagree with your assertion.

unfortunately, you then feel the need to utilize your missappropriated testosterone and attempt to beat those who don't agree with you into submission; not unlike the drunk guy at the bar who barely lucid after an all-day binge feels the need to wax philosophically and becomes agressive with others when they fail to see the implications of his drunken viewpoint.

i rather enjoy your rambling, inconsistent, pedantic, ever-changing positions. i don't even mind your failed attempts to discredit others and your often juvenile attempts at insult. but lets understand one thing... you are quite simply wrong... much of the time... about any number of topics. still, i am sure you are a nice guy who tries hard, ok, maybe I am not entirely sure.

[oldtimer]

Is this getting RIDICULOUS or what?

Just another day on the forum. Do you think the Roman forum was much different? After all, it was The place to be, and full of people spouting what they wanted, for anyone who would listen. I mean, you just gotta love it!