mobile homeless Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Ok. For all you loons with vintage Klipsch horns (or even the curious with other sensitive offerings), here is a good deal and a chance to own an amp that is not currently available premade (It was for years - now only offered in kit form). This is a fully loaded pair of Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks that have the ultimate Upgrade package. You will get TWO of the chassis seen above. I have to say, this is about the absolute cleanest and meticulously wired set of Moondogs I have ever seen. They are so nice, the owner of Welborne Labs (Ron Welborne), put them in his newsletter online! See owner comments below: "These amplifiers were purchased in kit form and assembled using solid core silver wiring for all signal and ground paths. The amps are equipped with the optional "Ultimate Upgrade" package which includes Jensen copper oil caps, Caddock resistors, Blackgate WKZ PS capacitors, Teflon tube sockets and KR 2A3 output tubes. I'll include BG cathode bypass or rechargeable NiMH battery bias at your option. The chassis are finished in Birdseye Maple and are in excellent condition. Included is a switchable power supply to optimize use with either KR or conventional 2A3's. Beautiful sounding and very reliable with excellent WAF." f>s> I would opt for the Sovtek tubes and SAVE $200 since I dont find the KR tubes very musical or harmonically rich. The Jensen caps are a plus with the vintage horns. The price with the Sovteks comes in at $1800 which is pretty good considering all the parts and the extremely well-made construction. This thing looks REALLY clean. The ad is here: http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1015718844&class&3&4& Now's your chance to own some top notch 2A3 amps if you are curious. KHorn/Cornwall I owners should take notice! From the looks of it, he is including some extra nice tubes as well. These amps are even MORE beautiful in person. The wood he ordered costs extra as well... They do look amazing. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-10-2002 at 06:10 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Mobile, Those look beautiful and if I had the money, I would definitely get them. I am looking at a tube setup for my bedroom system, utilizing a pair of '76 Heresy's. These are "only" rated at 96db @ 1/w/m. I was wondering if the 2A3's could power them to realistic levels cleanly? I was thinking of starting out with maybe the AES Superamp/AE-3 combination and slowly working my way up the ladder. I will also be getting the Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD player to compliment this system, and currently have a Dual CS-5000 turntable with the stock arm and a Shure V15V-MR cartridge (I was hoping to get some recommendations here as well). Believe me, if I had the cash right now, I wouldn't hesitate... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 I saw those go on AudiogoN last night. Awesome looking Moondogs! If I thought I could use another pair I would be making an offer! "GO FOR IT" someone! ------------------ Ed W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 I am! I am! Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 mobile, We're working out the details to complete this deal. Would you mind providing some advice for me with this question from the seller? "Would you like the amps configured with Blackgate or Cerafine cathode bypass caps (your choice), or the NiMH rechargeable battery bias supply?" Thanks Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Yeah, I just spoke with him and told him I wanted them but he said he is working a deal with someone else at the moment. I figured it was you. Good luck and let us know how they sound. I guess I will just have to wait my turn... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 9, 2002 Author Share Posted January 9, 2002 Have you asked him which he preferred? I have not heard the amp biased with the battery. That is usually done to quiet the amp and is a unique an interesting mod that might be good. On the other hand, it is one more thing to mess with so while it might be better, I might just opt to set it up normally. Ask him what he thinks ( I have written the guy twice (Mike) and have not gotten a response - a bit lame considering someone saw my post and is buying it..oh well...dont know him at all...he does do nice work). As for the cathode bypass caps, I am asking which he prefers. The big BlackGate shoud be the main PS cap...and it's an expensive beast. That is the big one at the top of the pic in cornwer. The Black Gates are generally better. Does he have the amp disassembled? Also, ask him what tubes your are getting and make sure you get the whole manual and any paperwork. Did you ask him WHY he is selling? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Mobile, I talked to him and he answered the question by saying: The 6SN7 tube is biased at 1.3 VDC using a resistor toground. In many less refined designs, the resistor is bypassed using a cheap electrolytic cap. Ron supplies Cerafine caps in the Moondog kit as an upgrade for this cap. When I built the amp I upgraded the cap further and used a BG cap as a cathode bypass. Recently I discovered a "more pure" way of biasing the tube by using a "pure" DC voltage source - in this case a rechargeable NiMH battery - which provides pure 1.3VDC to the tube. A bit tweaky but it does improve the sound by eliminating a cap and resistor from the signal path. I also asked him why he was selling and here was his response: Last month I stumbled upon an ebay auction for an Audio Note Kondo Silver Neiro amplifier (parallel 2A3)the auction was 3 days - no reserve. I waited till the last minute and dropped in my offer 4,000GBP and won! I had them shipped, rewired the trans for 110VAC and never looked back! The Moondog is an excellent amplifier but the Kondo is beyond words. There you have it... Mike BTW Mobile, was hoping you can give me some ideas for my tube system as well as help on my turntable... ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 9, 2002 Author Share Posted January 9, 2002 I got the very same response. Strangely enough, I have some good friends that have heard the parallel AN amps and didnt like them. Still, he sounds like he is smitten with them. All I have to say is that his amps are wired much better than most. He did a super job! Really top notch. I would go with the Black Gate over the Cerafine. I would even opt for the Battery bias scheme even though it might be a bit tweaky. Since Jazman is new to tubes, me might not opt for this.... come to think of it, he should probably not...unless he doesnt mind. The lad is barely getting used to his EICO and suddenly he is getting Moondogs! Lordy. PErsonally, I think there is a lot to be said about the EICO even given the more pure nature of the Moondogs. I think the EICO almost has a certain soul that few can match. To be sure, the Moondogs are better..but the EICO is damn good...in some ways, I enjoy it more on my CW depending. To all interested, btw, I sold that SLP-70 to a friend in Quebec. I never found the PS so he is making another one. Ended up selling it for $550. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 mobile, I've asked him the configuration questions. Waiting for his reply. The upgrade bug hit him. He says he has purchased an Audio Note Kondo Neiro (parallel 2A3), but has used Rons products for 10 years. I only went for the Sovtek setup,(the conservative setup and a money thing). I don't know if they are currently assembled or diassembled. mike, of course I did not purchase these to cut off another Klipsch devotee. I just happen to log in at work and there was mobile's post. My decision to purchase the Belles a couple of months ago set many things in motion, this being one. I even mentioned my lust for the Moondogs in another posting. (I thought mobile might sell his.)The ideas, opinons, and suggestions of the members of this 2 channel forum have been invaluable and if I see another pair, I will contact you ASAP. BTW, I purchased a used AH! TJoeb 99 and like what it's done for sound of my CDs. I have some Amperex 7308's I'm installing tonight to replace the original tubes. I already have purchased Amperex Bugle Boys, stock with your 4000, to roll in after learning what the 7308's present. The 4000 also has all the new mods from Upscale. Saving a few hundred on the used CD player and used Rega planar3 turntable helped make the Moondogs possible. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Jazman, If you love the Moondogs and want to sell the Eico, I will gladly take it off your hands! Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 woa guys, Thanks for the input and help. This was an opportunity to put something in place for the future end upgrade. I have not abandoned my EICO and will not. In fact I'm more interested than ever with what makes it and other tube amps the audio instruments they are. What I have is the desire and opportunity to build two great 2 channel systems for use in my home. Excess, maybe, but home is where I spend my time and my money. I know how to study, have a plan to practice doing hands on upgrades, and generally increase my knowledge. Believe me, I will get up to speed. There's no way to express how long I've saved to get to this point and try to pull this off. mike, Part of my homework is, I am planning to rebuild two HF-12's which are basicly the same components as the HF-81, just mono. Buying books on tube amp fundamentals etc. At present the HF-81 has to stay in place. I'm already very attached to it. I will hopefully find ways to improve it based on what I learn working on the 12's. If I sell any of these, I will let you know. Selecting a preamp and phono stage must still be done before deploying the Moondogs. Make no mistake. I know I am a humble grasshopper with much to learn. I depend a lot on the help I receive here. Klipsch out. This message has been edited by jazman on 01-09-2002 at 07:41 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr600 Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 How did you guys find the EICO HF-81? I check ebay periodically and no luck so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 9, 2002 Author Share Posted January 9, 2002 Usually there is always at least one EICO HF-81 on tap at ebay but the pickings have been scarce the last month or so. In fact, the whole EICO line has suffered the last two months with the ST-70 and ST-40 still holding the fort. Actually, instead of the HF-12, you should look for the more rare HF-14 amplifier which is excellent as monoblocks. If you are going to go the monoblock route, I would not do the integrated 12...the 14 looks so much better and it less mess. It's a very simple piece. It's just a lot harder to find; I did see a pair go on AudiogoN last year for 250. Neat little amps. kh ps - I might be selling one of my EICO HF-81 to finance another audio need... I thought I needed two at one time. I'll let this forum know first if I plan on parting with it. I have about 100 pics of the fiends. This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-09-2002 at 11:15 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 cbr FYI. There were two HF-81's sold with the last 24 hours on eBay. The jewel was this one. Good to go immediately. The real deal This one was posted after I left work here, PST, and was sold by the time I logged on after arriving home from the long commute and errands. Notice the two hours from post to sale close. The other unit was nowhere close to this one. Both sold quickly with the "Buy it now" option. So they do exist. I bought mine the same night it was posted. mobile, I sent you an email as a personal Thank You. Normally I don't get to check the Forum from work because I'm too busy, but today for some reason I did. Thank you again and Michael also expressed his thanks to you for your work done with that picture post here which created our connection on this deal. I had become a member of AudiogoN and previously made an offer to another seller who posted Moondogs for sale on the site, but he decided not to sell and withdrew the posting. Believe it or not, I searched that site almost every night looking for Moondogs but had not the last few nights. An HF-14 would be a great find, but I haven't seen one for sale. For my own purposes, the HF-12 has the same tubes as the HF-81, were verry cheap to buy and the EICO Home page reports "The power amp section of the HF12 is essentially the same circuit."(as the HF-14) Hopefully it will provide great hands on training to provide understanding and knowledge of what's under the hood and what makes it and other tube amps and preamps work. . HF14 I once did not know much about Alfa Romeo's. Now after many years of owning, rebuilding and partially restoring them, I know quite a bit. Their secret is good engineering and combining the right parts for the right applications. Good audio equipment should be much along the same principles, I hope. BTW, You are right again! The Monoblocks are absolutely beautiful. A complete Art statement themselves just looking at them. The Moondogs are assembled,... of course will ship with the tubes out, fully insured via FedEx. He will install the BG cathode bypass caps and Caddock resistors. The assembly manual and schematic will accompany the unit. As stated earlier, I chose the least expensive Sovtek tube configuration. I know you use a Cary preamp. What would be some additional preamp and phono stage recs from entry to utimate choice? That's it for the present. Klipsch out. This message has been edited by jazman on 01-10-2002 at 03:33 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 FYI anyone. This EICO HF87 is posted on eBay at present, not tube rectified, but reported as a good amp on the EICO Home page. eBay HF87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 10, 2002 Author Share Posted January 10, 2002 I know this is a BIG shot and will bring horizontal scroll arrows to most people's monitors. I might edit it and take it to a smaller size but right now, here is ole Jazman's new Moondog Monoblock up close at 1024 pixels. I noted a few of the main parts. The coupling capacitors can be changed for different sounds. Right now, the amps have Jensen Copper Oil caps, which some do not like (Al K.) but I find very musical and a good match with the vintage Klipsch. A very easy mod is to replace this with teflon or film/foil cap such as Hovland or other of similar ilk. This will be a less warm sounding cap and a bit sharper transients but will not be as musical per say. Some prefer the film caps over the oils, though. I have Oils in but might test others. Notice how few parts there are in a SET amp. Only ONE output tube and the signal takes a straight shot. Their are even more simple SET amps that arer direct coupled without the caps - in addition, some dont have the extra stage like the Moondog. The Moondog is surely a more traditional approach to the 2A3 SET amp. These amps WILL reveal differences in parts. Change the resistors to Tantalum you get different sound. Caps to film..different sound. Silver wire for Copper: different sound. As said, there are so FEW parts in a typical SET amplifier vs the average push pull tube amp.... Hell, open up your solid state AV receiver for a quick comparison! The difference is shocking. These amps are point to point wired instead of circuit boards...and dont have 1000s of parts. Indeed, the above amp would look even simpler if not for the terminal boards to facilitate ease of wiring for the kit builder. The Black Gate WKZ cap at top left is an expensive option and the best PS cap according to many. Others have their own preferences. Audio Note amps use them. The Hammond Choke regulates the power supply and is a staple for a good tube amp. The Moondogs sound better with different input tubes then what comes with them. The input/driver tubes are the 6SN7. I personally prefer the Sylvania 60s 6SN7 into a CBS 5692 for the most musical sound. The Mullard GZ-37 rectifier is by far the best of that variety. You can sub a 5AR4 here and the Mullard is the best as well but very $$$. The new Sovtek 5AR4 is supposed to be OK. I personally think the GZ-37 is a much more appealing rectifier with a better midrange. As for the 2A3, the Sovtek is an ok workman-like tube and fine. The next step up would be a good vintage NOS RCA JAN CRC VT95 Black Plate from the early 40s. This tube is by far a more magical, musical, involving 2A3...but is twice as expensive (or more). Figure about $150-200 a pair (and buy from soneone you trust). kh ps- Jazman, one more point. Before you finalize this deal, I would ask Mike what speakers he was using. One of the problems with SETs is the hum you might get when partnering with very sensitive speakers. Most of this hum can be removed. The reason why he opted for the battery bias approach was perhaps to lower the hum level. Ask him how sensitive his speakers were and if hum WAS a problem. This is an important point. This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-10-2002 at 06:09 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Very nice picture, Mobile. After doing some reading on the Moondogs from the Welborne website, I realize how nice this pair actually is. Geez, the upgrade alone is another $650 and that's just the parts. By the time I persued the pair, it was too late (Jazman beat me to the punch). Like him, I would have had to purchase a good preamp and possibly a phono stage, and am not really in a position to do so at this time (not after shelling out $1800 for the amps). I am gonna shoot you an email and hopefully you can help me in my selection process for my 2-channel system... Thanks, Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 mobile, He's using Avantgarde Uno hornspeakers. JPS Supeconductor interconnects and biwire speaker cables. I've asked him about possible hum problems and waiting for his reply. If hum can be removed, it's not a show stopper for me. I should be able to get the NiMH rechargeable battery bias supply from him or go with what would be reasonable alternatives. Another pair with this kind of workmanship may not surface again. I'm willing to be patient, work to resolve any warts. Klipsch out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatjunky Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Thanks for the good words Jazman. I feel really good about my purchase now that you titled it "The Real Deal." I logged on to ebay that evening and saw that HF-81 and figured heck...after reading a great deal about this unit in the past month on this forum I decided that $200 wasn't too much to ask especially after reading the seller's description. Sent the money order off in the mail yesterday and can't wait for it to arrive. My introduction to the world of tubes has begun. My "new to me" 75 Khorns I should suspect will love this thing. Take care all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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