Duval Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 I'm looking for guys who have listening old and recent Klipschorns so that they give me their opinion. Best midrange, bass register etc. Thanks. ------------------ Duval Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Yes Duval, I have listened to both. As close to 'side by side' as it gets for cornerhorns. Had stock '77's at one time in the corners and pre '55's sealed up with 3/4 ply next to. To me, the difference was striking. Both sound tremendous. However, the older ones IMO sound more natural and spacious. The bass is 'better' (as a matter of personal preference) in the older pair. Goes deeper and punches out with far more authority. Chest rumbling bass as opposed to just damn fine bass. The older pair has chest and jaw exciting bass even at low listening volumes, while the newer pair loses this effect as you turn the volume down. The pre '55's came with the Stephens Trusonic 103LX2's for the bass engine. 15" and weighing in at over 25lbs this driver is considered by many as the finest bass driver the Klipsch factory ever mounted in it's folded horn. Exceptionally efficient. We all know of the K-33 bass horn the '77's were equipped with. Fairly efficient, under 10lbs with a short throw which produces a very consistant 'Klipsch bass' sound. I prefer the midrange of the older ones. It is sweet and dispersive. The fiberglass/wood sectoral type horn of the older ones creates a very wide soundstage and all but eliminates the 'sweet spot' that the straight horns are (in)famous for. Mine have the University SAHF midrange driver. This is a very utilitarian driver. Practically indestructable. I've seen these with 2 inch dents in them sound as sweet as a NOS. This driver has a very natural sound that compliments the woofer and tweeter perfectly. I believe that the '77's had the K55V. The ones with the push connectors. This driver is hearty as well. It's shortfalls are well documented on this board. The tweeter in the old Khorns is the 'sleeper' component. It is the University 4401 Mid-T. As with all the components of this era, I believe that this tweeter was selected to represent Klipsch because of it's natural sound and it's seamless coexistance with the bass and midrange. Absolutely no harsh shrillness. Zero. Side by side with the '77's, I would have to say that this single component is easily identified as responsible for the greatest difference in sound. To my ears, the K-77 has a 'ringing' quality that can be very fatigueing to me. Network wise, the '77's had the AA's. The AA's strengths and weakness' are also well documented on this board. The older Khorns have the K-500-5000. With crossover points at 500 and 5Khz, this is a fairly robust unit. Over two feet long and 6 inches wide, it sports 3 inch hand wound chokes and large oil filled caps. Again, and much like the 'B' network of the CW's, this is a basic, natural and warm sounding network. Hope I haven't rambled on too much for you! ------------------ Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn58 Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Duval, I agree with edwardre the old Pre 60 khorns sound the best. I have some 58/59 vintage khorns with the stevens trusonic 15,University SAHF midrange drivers but I have Ev t35 tweeters (early brown backs) That sound great with the other drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 edwardre, I found your post most interesting! It certainly made me curious to hear such a vintage Khorn, but I fear my chances here in Germany are rather slim. Thanks again for your info. Wolfram ------------------ Without music colour becomes pallor, man becomes carcass, home becomes catacomb - Edgar Allan Poe System: 1973 Khorns with ALK crossovers REL Stadium II sub Cayin 743 D integrated tube amp McIntosh MR 77 McIntosh MCD 7007 Thorens 520S SME 3012-R Ortofon SPU Classic GM E Cyrus aEQ 7 phono stage with PSX-R power supply Alternative system: Quad ESL 63 McIntosh MC 2105 McIntosh C29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duval Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 OK and thanks you. Your information's are very precious for me. So, now I'm looking for a pair of old ones. But in Europe (I lived in France, near Paris) it's very difficult to find!!! By the past I have been in possession of Klipschorns made in 1981, I liked their sound but I finded them few imperfections. Notably in the high frequencies, the K77 could be aggressive and the bass was not too articulate and goes no deeper. Actually I've an old pair of JBL Olympus (after the Voice Of Theater with multicellular horns, and monitoring speakers like JBL 4343), The S8 R with the enormous 2 inches midrange drivers 275, it's very good with Dynaco MKIII or Mc Intosh 2205, but I don't rediscover the Klipsch's magical sound! And have you listening the very last versions, made after 1983? And thanks you one more time. quote: Originally posted by edwardre: Yes Duval, I have listened to both. As close to 'side by side' as it gets for cornerhorns. Had stock '77's at one time in the corners and pre '55's sealed up with 3/4 ply next to. To me, the difference was striking. Both sound tremendous. However, the older ones IMO sound more natural and spacious. The bass is 'better' (as a matter of personal preference) in the older pair. Goes deeper and punches out with far more authority. Chest rumbling bass as opposed to just damn fine bass. The older pair has chest and jaw exciting bass even at low listening volumes, while the newer pair loses this effect as you turn the volume down. The pre '55's came with the Stephens Trusonic 103LX2's for the bass engine. 15" and weighing in at over 25lbs this driver is considered by many as the finest bass driver the Klipsch factory ever mounted in it's folded horn. Exceptionally efficient. We all know of the K-33 bass horn the '77's were equipped with. Fairly efficient, under 10lbs with a short throw which produces a very consistant 'Klipsch bass' sound. I prefer the midrange of the older ones. It is sweet and dispersive. The fiberglass/wood sectoral type horn of the older ones creates a very wide soundstage and all but eliminates the 'sweet spot' that the straight horns are (in)famous for. Mine have the University SAHF midrange driver. This is a very utilitarian driver. Practically indestructable. I've seen these with 2 inch dents in them sound as sweet as a NOS. This driver has a very natural sound that compliments the woofer and tweeter perfectly. I believe that the '77's had the K55V. The ones with the push connectors. This driver is hearty as well. It's shortfalls are well documented on this board. The tweeter in the old Khorns is the 'sleeper' component. It is the University 4401 Mid-T. As with all the components of this era, I believe that this tweeter was selected to represent Klipsch because of it's natural sound and it's seamless coexistance with the bass and midrange. Absolutely no harsh shrillness. Zero. Side by side with the '77's, I would have to say that this single component is easily identified as responsible for the greatest difference in sound. To my ears, the K-77 has a 'ringing' quality that can be very fatigueing to me. Network wise, the '77's had the AA's. The AA's strengths and weakness' are also well documented on this board. The older Khorns have the K-500-5000. With crossover points at 500 and 5Khz, this is a fairly robust unit. Over two feet long and 6 inches wide, it sports 3 inch hand wound chokes and large oil filled caps. Again, and much like the 'B' network of the CW's, this is a basic, natural and warm sounding network. Hope I haven't rambled on too much for you! ------------------ Duval Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 A fine post, Edwardre. Excellent comparison comments. You have piqued my curiosity as well. I have never heard the 50s vintage Klipschorns. ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Thanks all. Much has been made of late with regards to this sound over that sound so I just wanted to underline the part about 'personal preferance'! Yes Duval. I have had opportunity to listen to a pair of relatively 'new' Khorns, I think '84's or '85's, which invokes another story. As mentioned in previous posts, my pre '55 Khorns were passed on to me by my father. What happened was that about '86, he came upon a deal he just could not pass up. 1984 or 1985 Khorns still in the box, never opened for $400. Naturally he swooped them up like shot from gun. Being mint, he felt that he would get less grief from my mom for these 'big crates' in her living room and 'offed' the somewhat dated Khorns on me as I was not married at the time so I did not have to consider the WAF. Personally, I prefer the look of these vintage gems over the current design. I have had the opportunity to listen to them at length when visiting. No A/B testing available, but to me they sound very close to the '77's I had. Perhaps a bit more 'forward' or 'in your face' in the upper mid to high range (of course, where else) which I attribute to the difference in mid-drivers and networks. I believe that the '77's were AA's while the '84/85's were AK's. I further believe that the '77's had the K-55V whereas the newer have the K-55M's which to me sounds 'hotter'. In any event, suffice to say that everytime he's over he's kicking himself for ever letting them go! Sit's there on the couch shaking his head saying 'man-oh-man'! ------------------ Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Ed, another great post. Someday you should share with these folks the mod you just completed on your Belle (may it's up here and I just missed it). Question ... I'll do a search in a minute, but these '76's I got and am refinishing (and waiting on a pair of Al K's finest), they've got the midrange with the push connectors. Was this the model that everybody was trying to put a "p-trap" on? I'm hoping Al's networks will fix that shortcoming. Was there anything else I should be aware of as far as fixing problems in this model? Or should I just finish 'em up and put 'em back up on Ebay? (LOL) I guess I'm asking now since the HF/LF sections are apart for easier moving upstairs from the basement. If I need to do a mod, I'd rather do it when they're down there. Thanks guys. ------------------ If you don't like what is coming out, you wouldn't like what is going in." -PWK- --------------------- Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 Hi Chris, as far as mod to your upper section....I wouldn't suggest anything too radical. Remember, we are now at the point of splitting hairs which have left the realm of 'scientific' improvements and are more into the realm of 'perceived' or 'preferential' improvements as they pertain to mods. I would suggest that you 'digest' the sound of the ALK's in your Khorns for a good while and go from there. To be honest, the only reason I modded my center Belle was not so much to 'improve', but rather to match the '50's era Khorn sound to create an even sonic and tonal soundstage across the front of my HT setup. I believe that there is verbage here on this board that refers to a (I think) 6Khz flare with the push-type connectors on the K55V, and that the K55V's with the (again I think) solder type connectors do not possess this 'flare'. I additionally believe that I read that not all the push type K55V's had this issue. Perhaps a more learned member can clarify for us both once again. However, from my experience, it sounds to my ears that the K55V (push type) kind of has a 'dimmunitive' sound rather than what I would consider a 'flare'. Unscientific of course. Maybe my ears have tonal 'gaps' at certain freqs? ------------------ Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good2BHome Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 Ed and Chris, I don't profess to be "a more learned member" , my strength has always been to leverage what they knew, so here is the link I remember on K55V flares by ALK himself. The key word being "push-on" http://216.37.9.58/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000523.html Mike This message has been edited by Good2BHome on 02-04-2002 at 05:59 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 From what I know, which is very little, the squawker output tapers off beginning at 5K, with the tweeter starting to come on strong around the same range. The 9Khz peak was exclusively the tweeters fault, and while the P-trap is often recommended, it has (of course) been tuned to exactly reduce the 9Khz range by 3 or 4 dB. If you are working on ear alone you will probably not get the whole picture. I recommend a Rat Shack SPL meter, and a test CD/record with appropriate signal generator tracks. You can then map out your response curve in room, and look at what you have then to determine where (if any) you have peaks or valleys. I was very surprized at how 'flat' my Khorns in-room response was. Not flat flat, of course, but all within +-5dB even with a nasty peak at 5-6K. I've seen some charts where the signal is ALL OVER the place. After the charting I recommend stomping on the SPL meter and burning the CD. Don't get too hung up on 'measurements' and 'reality', at least as seen by a scientific device like the Rat Shack. Let your ears be the final arbiter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 Randy--The 9khz problem comes from some of the Atlas (K55-V?) midrange drivers. Some (not all) exhibit the problem. The mid driver had no low-pass and was allowed to die off on it's own, unfortunately some have a resonence around 9khz. A good friend has tested many of these drivers and is the fella who identified the problem and designed the P-Trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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