JCturboT Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Well guys... All this talk about tube amps have got me thinking-Am I missing something?Is there a new(old)avenue I need to investigate?Just what is all this talk about the wonders of tube amplificatiion? I have been reading the posts with Mobile and others praising the merits of tubes and talking to people like my older brother who is into Ham radio and swears by his tube amp. Well I am serious considering the purchase of a tube amp of older vintage (meaning cheap)and have been looking at the yard sales,want ads,ect.I would like to have at least 15 watts on up as I like my music on the loud side with deep bass as I enjoy hard rock/heavy metal. In the older posts I have read alot about HH Scott and especially the 299B as being a nice clean example of older tube sound. With this being said have any of you had any experience with the older Scott amps?I really like the look of the LK-150 but finding one within my budget might be tough,although it sound like a beautiful amp I don't think the Eico HF-81 that Mobile mentions would have enough power for my tastes. So guys-please give me some ideas for my tube amp purchase.I anxiously await any and all replies. Thanks! Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 what speakers do you have? any sub? there was a great used equipment store in Cambridge, can't recall the name, so you may be able to fins some great stuff there, but remember, tube watts are not SS watts. The saying is that tubes watts are twice as powerful as SS watts. Now it turns out that Tubes Do Something Special (Peter van Willenswaard, Stereophile, September 2000, http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?357). They put out a lot more voltage than we knew. Willensward measured recorded music on a 9 watt amp with 300B tubes. He found tubes were more than 5 times more powerful than suspected; you'd need a 50W transistor amp to realize the same peaks my 9W 300B launched without wincing at my speakers. ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted January 28, 2002 Author Share Posted January 28, 2002 Colin, I am running 1984 vintage Cornwalls,no sub but I have 2 Cerwin Vega speakers that I run with the Cornwalls when I feel the need for some serious bass (4-15" woofers) I have meters on my current amp (Yamaha M-85)and most of my listening is done above 30 watts which is where my Yamaha goes from Class A to AB. I have a lead on a old Scott intergrated amp,not sure of model #, but from what the owner says is in "working" condition and I like the idea that this now defunct company was based in my home state Massachusetts. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Jeff, Scroll down to the 'Tubes for my Khorns' thread is this Forum and read through that. The guy who headed that thread is into heavier rock and stuff. They give him some good suggestions. THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted January 28, 2002 Author Share Posted January 28, 2002 Mike, Thanks for the scoop on "tubes for my K-horns" I really don't want to buy new but would prefer something older Scott-Heathkit-Fisher-ect. I don't mind doing a liitle work on it as it would be a side project so-to-speak. C'mon guys...whatcha think would be a good starter tube amp for a Solid State guy! PS:Mike-read your post, whatever you do don't ever change your music taste...Theres enought Hard stuff to keep you set for life!! Rock on Jeff This message has been edited by JCturboT on 01-28-2002 at 11:21 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 The old Fisher 500-C is a fantastic sounding vintage receiver. Fantastic push-pull sound with authorative bass & smooth midrange. It has a great FM tuner as well as great output transformers. Sounds as good, maybe better than the Classic McIntosh 225 amp, which IMHO, is the best sounding Mac amp ever made. Both have 7591A tetrode output tubes which can be purchased new (ElectroHarmonix). 37 watts per channel, plenty of power! Have fun & enjoy, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 The base price is only $99.00 for Antique Sound Labs' mono block tube amplifier. But don't let the price fool you. These are charming amps. The Wave 8 clearly provides the tube sound, for a pittance of the price of most good tube or SS amps. They perform with a joyous snap and pop. More like the exuberance of college football than the professional NFL. Yet, the low cost and low powered tube amps were wonderful to hear. They have a whiff of the rare air of magical audio combinations. Indeed, I found myself returning again and again to rock recordings and playing the Waves LOUD. Specifications Output Power: 8 watts Frequency Response @ 1watt: 20 Hz to 20 kHz Frequency Response @ 6 watts: 30 Hz to 18 kHz Distortion @ 1 watt: <1% Distortion @ 6watts: <5% S/N Ratio: 70dB Input impedance: 100K Output Impedance: 8 ohm Input Sensitivity: 500mV Input: Gold-plated RCA jack Output: Gold-plated five-way binding posts Tubes: two ECL82/6BM8 xxxx Fuse: 3A Slow Blow Power: removable IEC cord Chassis Finish: Iron with powder paint Dimensions in mm: 140 x 290 x 135 (WxDxH) Net Weight: 3Kg Shipping Weight: 4Kg Price: $99 each or $119 with tube cover Company Information Divergent Technologies 342 Frederick Street Kitchener, Ontario Canada N2H 2N9 Voice: (519) 749-1565 Fax: (519) 749-2863 E-Mail: divergent@divertech.com Website: www.divertech.com At an entry-level price of $99 per side, however, few amps compare to the amazing rendition of high-end audio that these charmers give. If speakers are the only bargain in the audio biz - you get the most bang for your buck with speakers - then amplifiers must be the sinkhole of stereo. They are the drain, down which we dump dozens of dollars. The ASL Wave 8s plug that hole. Now anyone can start with a musical sounding amp to go with their smooth sound source and sensitive speakers. If there is an entry level tube amp out there for neophyte audiophiles, or simply some one who wants the most "tube bang for their audio buck" with their above average efficiency speakers, these have got to be the ticket. ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 I have experience with two older tube amps: One is the Heathkit W5M. It's mono, so you have to buy two. Also, it may require a fair amount of work to restore. But the transformers and HV choke are very good. It uses 2 KT-66 output tubes in ultra-linear config. Preamp tubes are 12AU7. They're all easy to obtain.The 5R4GY was a little harder to find, but not expensive. I used it on Forte-IIs and RF-7s. It has plenty of power and wonderful sound. I say "used," because I like to rewire it to try different tubes and configurations. Right now I have it wired as triode mode push-pull using a single 12AU7 as gain and phase splitter. I like it that way a little better than straight SET because the KT-66 really isn't so great for that use and I'm not sure that's a real good use of the transformer either. This week I hope to get a pair of E88CC tubes, which are a lot like the 12AU7, but more linear. I mention all of this because, if you like to experiment, the W5M is a great platform. The other amp I've tried is a Dynaco ST-70. It had an upgraded preamp section and had a very impressive sound. This is a slightly more modern EL34 ultra-linear design with plenty of power. I think there are a few more of these around, they're stereo, so you only need one. Very nice amp. It might not lend itself to tinkering quite like the Heath, but it's easy to work on. Additional notes: The Heath is pretty much a triode design and lends itself to no-feedback mods. The Dynaco is more pentode-oriented (initial gain is pentode and I don't know how well EL34s do in triode mode). No-feedback might be a little difficult whth the Dynaco. But you could just leave it alone and listen to it. Both amps are great with Klipsch speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 Lordy have Mercy upon my idiotic soul! Colin, you have gone hog wild over that little ASL WAVE AV-8! It's pretty good...especially for the ducats, but not THAT good! lordy. I am going to be getting a bevy of amps in the mail over the next few weeks for the big SHOOTOUT! * Monarchy Audio SM-70 representing Solid State * Welborne LAbs 2A3 Moondogs for SET * EICO HF-81 representing EL-84 Vintage * ASUSA A-4 EL-34 amp representing Ultra Linear PP * Transcendent Sound T16 OTL representing the freak patrol * Bryston 4B-ST representing the solid state monsters! * NAD 3150 Integrated for the Cheapskate SS * ASL Wave AV-8 monos representing dirt cheap valves! Let the noise begin! You wont know what hit you, freaks! kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 Well, mdeneen, you know I like separates (see my reply to integrated vs monobock) as I have more separates than integrateds. My main system is separates. My point is that a good integrated like the EICO HF-81 can blow aways many separates... Potentially. Listen, I have a EL-34 amp that is very similar to the Dynaco but better input section, point to point wiring, and a choke filtered PS. When I run my $2500 fully modified Cary SLP-70 preamp into this EL-34, I get glorious BIG sound. The EL-34 is a great tube, in either triode or pentode configuration (I had a Cary Audio SLA-70 Signature for awhile that was switchable between triode and pentode). The kicker? My little $100 EICO HF-18 actually is more of a whole and more musical than the above combination! Yes, the above duo does a few things better... But the EICO taken as a whole, sounds better! I would have never believed this or predicted it...unless I had not heard it. So I became FAR FAR less prejudiced of well designed integrateds...my mind OPENEd up on the matter. Now, your comments on "negative feedback" are true with some designs. Simply removing the negative feedback in certain PP amps will result in a poor overall sound occasionally. You will lose control of the low end as the dampening factor goes down. But when properly engineered into the design, NO FEEDBACK is by far the more natural sounding method of amplification! I cant stress this enough. The difference is startling. I have heard it myself with amps where you can dial the feedback in and out. If you have sensitive enough speakers that do not drop in impedance with bad dips, especially in the low end, then the result is the most pure and open top end presentation you have ever heard! Christ, why do I feel this board talks so much without trying these pieces of equipment???? Even solid state companies like Monarchy Audio are getting wise to this. Amps that employ less feedback sound better in general, if partnered with the right components. Your comments about rolled off, dull high is very inaccurate in this regard, that is, with properly designed circuits. A little negative feedback can be a good thing to many designs, I agree. But to hear a unit with NO feedback that is partnered correctly, the open, unfettered, sense of ease is really shocking! I have never liked amps employing a lot of feedback to meet criteria. IT adds a sense of grain that does not make up for the supposed increase in bass. The treble in a high feedback design is very siblant and that pronounced "SSssss" to the vocals...this when done improperly. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-05-2002 at 11:52 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 What an annoying response. Christ... mdeneen says, "As for "no feedback" - well, if you want to give up all the bass and all the highs, there is some potential advantage... You use unbelievably loaded phrases in your arguments. You also dont read carefully. My discussion of Negative Feedback has qualifications throughout. I was responding to your assessment of Negative feedback and rolled off highs. And your assessement that "integrated" is always outdone by separates. I am willing to bet my entire system that you have never had a properly designed SET amp in your system at home. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-05-2002 at 12:18 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 I am sure you did review your own posts... I was talking about the ability to read others, more specifically, the actual post I was answering and you were responding to in this last exchange. Review the two posts this refers to. Loaded phrases... Dogma? The EICO is the worlds best amp???? This is painful. I repeat, please name a single SET amp you have had in your system? Me, I have had a good portion of the tube amps we have discussed, including many vintage push pull designs, that I happen to like. Have you heard the EICO? Another bet, no. Have you heard a quality SET amp? Another bet, no. Opinions are fine. Some are just more well informed than others, that's all. And some are rather judgmental without ever having been there... kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-05-2002 at 02:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 I once got a chance to live with a pair of Cary 2A3SE mono-blocks for a little while and thought they were the bee's knees in many ways. I ran them through my McIntosh C-22 preamp and they were crisp, clean, highly detailed but not as "warm" as my McIntosh MC-30s to my ears. I know this probably sounds nuts to say the old MAC "class ab push-pull" amps were warmer, but that's what I heard. The bass from these 3-watt amps was just fine when listening to the 50's and 60's jazz I play 98% of the time, but when I put on late Miles Davis or Ornette Coleman electric bass-thumping music the low end seemed to fuzz out and lose control quite a bit when compared with the (10 times more powerful) MC-30s especially when played at the high volumes this music seems to demand. I loved these little amps, but I sure didn't think they were worth FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS! I would be very much open to hearing similar amps in my system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 Yeah, this exchange between ole mdeneen and I got out of hand as usual. What do you expect? The Freak gave aways his records!!!! heh... Allan, you hit the nail on the head with the Cary 2A3 amps. First of all, they use only "ok" transformers, nowhere near the quality of MagneQuest or even Electraprint. The outputs on these SETs make an even bigger difference than on the push pull, although you know they BOTH need good iron. Cary obtains their outputs from a rather circumspect source. The Welbornes and Wavelengths etc have VERY extended bottom ends, especially through the Cornwalls. It is really hard to believe. As I have said in the past, it bettered all my push pull as well as the Bryston 4B-ST (in tone and harmonic richness). The good SETS used VERY expensive iron... it makes a HUGE difference. The Cary's are nice..but not built to the next standard. They also push their design a bit..and it is wired for KR2A3 tubes (surely not a favorite of mine). You are very right...they are NOT worth $5000. The Welborne Labs amps smoke them, as do a range of other SET amps. The 2A3 tube is known for being extremely open and clear, making normal tubes seem slow and pondourous. When done correctly, the inner detail and transparency with absolutely NO GLARE OR HAZE is extraordinary. The sound is so open it makes one do a double take. As I said before, however, push pull done correctly has its own charms. IF those Cary's had KR2A3 tubes, by the way, then the midrange will be treadbare... I think these are the least appealing 2A3 tubes I have heard; NOS RCA makes them seem like solid state! kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-05-2002 at 07:03 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted February 5, 2002 Author Share Posted February 5, 2002 Guys, "Can't we all just get along? Seriously thought-I"d like to Thank all of you for your replies,especially mdeneen & mobil homeless for giving me their honest opinins about this question.I respect both of your opinions. I would like to stick with seperates with this tube amp purchase and leok and mdeneen got me thinking about the Dyanco ST70,its sounds like a no-lose tube purchase.Their plentiful,easy to work with,good sounding,ect.Kinda like the small block Chevy of the audio world. Mobil-I'm not ruling out anything I come across which includes integrated amps like your Eico HF-81 but people seem to know what they have with this little jewel and they are going at a premium. So guys don't argue over "mine is better than yours"as all this talk about tubes has got a guy who knew nothing about this format before reading your posts interested in finding out about the sweet sounds of tube amplifaction. And I thank you for that! Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 What are the relative merits of a 300B vs a 2A3 based amp? Jim Norvell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Dont worry, JCT... Lord, mdeneen and I ALWAYS post like that! It is expressed love for each other..just in a totally opposite form. Hell, ole mdeneen and I go WAY back...to '68! We can handle this gibberish; it only caused me to want to take my own life for two...maybe three hours. In other words, nothing out of the ordinary here in NC. Ultimately, if you have the cash, I would opt for separates for flexibility as well as the 200 paragraph explanation I left in the "integrated vs monobock" thread. I do think you can find better amps then the Dynaco 70, however. There are much better vintage pieces around. Not to say I dont love that amp...it is a classic. But there are others that I would rank ahead of it. Still, you won go wrong with it. When I babble about the EICO HF-81, I am talking about my intimate LOVE for this little beast as it is so unassuming yet sounds so good...and you get the whole package in one. Personally, my MAIN system is separates for all sorts of reasons, many of which mdeneen hit on as well. As for the 300B vs the 2A3. First of all, the 300B is over DOUBLE the power coming in around 8 watts vs the 2A3 at 3.5 watts. Generally speaking, the 300B is a more romantic sounding tube with a more creamy midrange. It, to my ears, sounds more thick and rich. It has a GREAT midrange bloom and is very seductive. The 2A3 is a more open sounding tube and less dark. It is subjectively more clean sounding on the whole but I think it is not quite as rich as the 300B. IT does sound more neutral, however. The 2A3 is a faster sounding tube...mor agile. I think it actually has better bass than the 300B even though the 300B has more power in the ratings. They are both VERY intimate presentations and lay the performance open at your feet. I dont know of a better conveyed sense of emotion. Both bring goosebumps when done right. I actually like both... but the 2A3 sounds more neutal to my ears. Some think the 300b can sound mushy compared to the 2A3... Hell, either one is great. I think I prefer the 2A3 but am also considering getting a 300B amp... so that leaves you right where you started. You need to audition them! kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 "If you want to cough up some serious bux and not have to do any mods and just sit back and LISTEN to the glorious EL34 - then of course lay down your dough for the Marantz 8b and just be done with amps for a long time. " There are at least 3 of these up on eBay at the moment. Judging from all the parts, manuals, etc. also being auctioned, this must be a unit that has a cult following of individuals who keep them going. Anyone else feel as strongly about them as mdeneen? Is this a push-pull system? -pushed and pulled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 The Marantz 8B is the classic EL-34 amp and has one of the most loyal cult followings around. IT is indeed a push pull amp. Very nice, tube-like, warm sound...very well made as well...but be prepared to pay near 1500 or so for a good one. It's a classic and sounds like it... lush EL-34 sound. Not the last word in transparency. But you cant go wrong and it wont lose value. Easily betters the Dynaco ST70, but at a cost. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted February 6, 2002 Author Share Posted February 6, 2002 Guys, I going to take a look at 2 tube amps this weekend,thay are... 1.The recommended Dyanco ST-70 with companion preamp (not sure if its the PS2 or PS3)both in very good condition.The amp is factory assembled.The asking price is $300.00 for both. 2.A Scott LK-48 integrated kit amp.Not sure of condition or price.Actually found about it by luck as a co-worker and I were discussing tube amplification (he's also a big fan)and a customer overhearing the converstion mentioned he has this Scott with a companion tuner and would be interested in selling it. Any comments on either amp?? Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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