ottscay

I would agree that you should check your surround processing. Since there is very little 6 or 7 channel material encoded (very, very little...), you will be matrix processing it (e.g. DD PLIIx) to get the 7.1 On my Arcam AVR-300 with 4 monopoles (rb-75s) it sounds awesome; the difference in say a jedi fighter panning across behind you is immediately noticeable, so it improves the experience fairly dramatically. With good dipoles in a house with a small area behind you with a less robust matrix processor...it might hardly be noticeable to go from 5.1 to 7.1. Sorry, I really didn't answer your question at all! Good luck.

Well, the rf-63 is counted out for me; they sounded quite good, but I won't part with my beloved -7s unless I am getting a noticeable upgrade. My better half loves them too, but has noticed some harshness and listening fatigue in the 7s (with decent amplification), hence they interest in the rf-83s. I did see your thread and photos...that's what sent me on my quest to audition the Ref IVs. I wasn't seriously considering the -63s, but their highend performance sold me on the need to seriously consider the -83s. If they sound as good as I hope, I may have them by the end of the month. Of course I'll give a full review if I decide to get them.

I found a Reference dealer in Wyoming (thanks for the handy website, Klipsch!), and got to listen to a pair of RF-63s in a surround setup. The room was not exactly ideal for audio, and the speakers were not set up well (not towed in, etc), plus they hadn't had more than a couple of hours breakin time. Caveats out of the way, I liked what I heard. The highs were much smoother than my rf-7s. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade in my '7s for the rf-63s - less extension and less presence with the 3 six inch woofers - but now I am very interested in hearing the rf-83s. Hopefully next week when I go to Milwaukee I can arrange to find a dealer with the 83d in stock to audition. At this point I am seriously considering getting an rf-83 and rc-64 front end.

Now Bose employees are murdering people??? [] I know it's a serious subject guys, but there are other forums for those types of discussions.

Anything with country twang... []

It may depend on your setup to some degree; I usually select Dolby 5.1 (or better yet, EX), because my reciever does an awesome jobe of deriving 7.1 sound from a DD 5.1 track. It's more immersive for me, so it's "better". That said, I too have heard audio gains on DTS tracks, so you really need to let your ears and your specific setup needs drive the answer to that question.

I will check for fingerprints, and I'll run some more dvds before I try to return it. I bought mine online (no choice, I live 3 hours from an electronics store of any size), so returning it would not be ideal. I hope I hit the right tone with my review; I really am suprisingly impressed by how capable the format is (even if it's my second choice), and I'm sure that some truly fantastic HD-DVD players could be built, but I think Toshiba was so concenred with being first to market that they didn't handle some of the basics, and that may really cost them. Time will tell. In the mean time, I'll be renting some HD-DVDs as they come out to keep enjoyng the awesome picture quality, but I probably won't be buying many.

Ok, I have spent about another 2 hours tweaking the video levels, then watched The Last Samurai twice. Obviously I will be watching more movies as they come out (and as Amazon ships them to me...) but I think I can comment intelligently on the format now. First of all, HD-DVD looks gorgeous. On my 1080p 50" Sony the difference is obvious, especially in sharpness, and lack of artifacts. Color rendition is also improved. It looks far better than the Dish Network HD that I get, most especially in the lack of artifacting. The good news is that while I am still a Blu-ray fan, I will not be devestated if HD-DVD wins. So, the format appears sound, although I have doubts that it will emerge victorious, in large part because of the flaws in the player itself. I ran into a number of occasions where disks (both SD and HD) paused, or stopped altogether, for no apparent reason (it wasn't scratches....I checked). On SD it's likely layer changes, but on the HD...? The lag in the machine is obnoxious, and as mentioned already, the remote sucks. Also, the DTS bug is a real problem. I understand that we're waiting on HDMI 1.3 for hi-res audio, and it's not Toshiba's fault that we can't get the new formats easily, but as someone who spent a lot of money on a 7.1 surround setup, including a reciever that is really good at PLLx processing, I WANT my Dolby 5.1 at a minimum. Also, since the player doesn't play SACD and DVD-A, it's not really an option for me to use the analog outputs unless I want to give up a decent part of my classical listening. So for the time being I get worse audio with HD-DVDs then with DVDs. For videophiles it's not all bad; I managed to minimize the black clipping problem by engaging the "enhanced black levels" feature; normally additional processing is not a good thing, but this works well and almost compensates for the black clipping. Others I've had over notice the difference, but no one but me finds it objectionable, so I doubt most would. Also, I am convinced that the upresing on SD DVDs is outrageously good for a player at this price point. while the dynamic rangne isn't perfect, the upscaling introduces far, far less artifacting (e.g. macro-blocking) then my more expensive DVD player. So my tentative verdict is that the format is solid, even though the player has some problems. Ironically, while I'm more accepting of the format now, I am more convinced that it will lose. Between the HD-A1 and the almost identical variant that will be sold at Wal-mart, this is the player that most people will be exposed to. I think most average consumers will not be satisfied. TVs that are not properly callibrated will make the gain in picture quality minimal, and the frustrations with audio, remote, and general performance will annoy more than the benefits impress. If Sony comes through with its delivery of the PS3 in November as promised, then HD-DVD has 6 months to win (and only 2 month before BD players come out), or else it will lose by virtue of mass market saturation. Since the first 3 months are going to be dominated by a sub-par machine that feels unfinished...you can see why I have doubts about how it will compete. Also, the lack of studio support is going to hurt. There are 3-4 titles shipping right now, and none of them are must-have titles. They really, really need to release Kong, the Matrix Trilogy, or something to create some true demand. Much is being made of them almost selling out the first shipment of players (and that is smart marketing, so kudos to Toshiba), but it was only 10,000 units. If sales are going to be driven this summer (after the initial gee-whiz reaction of early adopters wears off) there will have to be some true event movies. This format "war" has largely been one of incompetence; HD-DVD was delayed from Q3 last year to Q2 this year, sacrifice most of its time advantage, then the PS3 was delayed from Q2 this year to Q4 (hopefully), sacrificing the resulting mass sales of the (likely) most popular Blu-Ray player. Now Toshiba has released a player that has some really promising features, but not in a product that IMHO feels finished enough to really excite the average consumer, and without enough movies. At least now it's Sony's turn to screw up... To conclude with good news, It appears that for those of you with good TVs that are callibrated, movies are about to get better looking, no matter which format wins. And eventually we'll get higher quality audio too, once the proper recievers become available.

I'll be watching The Last Samurai. The cinematography and colors are beautiful (though I hear the film grain is quite apparent), but mostly it's because I'm most familiar with the standard definition transfer, so it will be the best comparison. Ok, I've actually done some serious dvd watching on the Toshiba tonight, and done a bit of tweaking on the THX optimizer. First, the good news: The default color rendition is a quite good. Also, I previously said that the scaler is not as good as my Denon, but after a few hours of watching different scenes, I no longer think this is true. The details are very crisp, comparing very well with, and in some scenes surpassing the detail (I did have to alter the sharpness setting of my tv during THX optimization to, well, optimize). On the less than ideal hand, the blacks are crushed over HDMI. I presume this is because of the machines' inability to pass blacker than black through HDMI (this is often called the "HDMI bug", but that implies it is somehow the fault of HDMI, which is not true since it does not effect all HDMI players; it is a fault of the Toshiba machine). I consider this black clipping to be a serious deficiency for playing DVDs, since to compensate I either have to put up with loss of shadow detail or raise brightness (and so lose black level). I do not want to blow this out of proportion; results may very depending on your set's gray scale tracking, etc. Even on my TV the image is not terribly objectionable, but for a number of years I did color correcting for print, so I am very picky about image quality (I love music, but I'm a more qualified picture-quality-phile than audiophile). Anyways, I fully expect my 1080P/1080i ready tv will show the benefit of HD-DVD to good effect tomorrow, and assuming the image is good enough, I will either live with the slight degradation of dvd, or figure out a way to integrate both players. While an avowed Blu-ray fan, I am a bigger fan of good images; can't wait to see what HD-DVD can do...I hope I can sleep tonight!

Grrrr, my player came and is set up, but no disks to play until tomorrow (I live in the middle of BFE, so I can't just run out and find a Best Buy or whatnot to get one). Some first impressions: The build quality seems decent on the player, though nothing special for a $500 player (as compared to my Denon 2910). The callibration I did with the THX optimizer on my Denon held up perfectly with the Toshiba, which is promising. The remote is a serious POS. It feels cheap, it works poorly, buttons are hard to find and don't always work, etc. Thank goodness for my universal remote... The upscaling of DVD's (through HDMI) is pretty good, as reported elsewhere, but not as good as my Denon. Don't get me wrong, I would expect a DVD player to do a better job with DVDs than an HD-DVD player (especially one who's MSRP is higher than the Toshiba), but standard DVDs are all I have to compare at the moment. I eagerly await with a properly calibrated TV and a decent pair of eyes...I will report back tomorrow when I've seen an actual HD-DVD.

Just ordered mine, and a couple of HD-DVDs. Should get them tomorrow. I really want Blu-ray to win, but at this price it's worth enjoying the "other" HD optical format for a few months. I imagine this is in fact Toshiba's strategy...but who am I to deny their clever ruse? []

Even though I want Blu-ray to win, I'm planning on picking one of these up as well; $500 is too good to pass up to see hi-def movies at home... By the way, where did you get yours? They are scarce on the net.

Ok, it's official, I am starting to save up for these. Guess I'll have some -7s on the market in a few months for those of you worrying about getting them. Congrats on your purchase!

I am soooo looking into getting these (and the rc-64), so I wait with bated breath to hear your report...

I just like listening to music... []

Lol...my 7s will probably be around for a while as well. That said, I am glad to see reports that the new reference series bests the old; There was a lot of unwarranted whining early on by people who had assumed that the RF-83s were little more than glorified rf-35s, but now the specs show the new series goes higher and digs deeper. If the midrange has a more linear response (as the literature suggests) and the new horns smooth out the mids, these may indeed by damned sweet speakers. Perhaps Pray Mantis didn't sounds detached and objective, but talk of improved imaging, etc is starting to make me suspect the new speakers may be better all the way around. I can wait to hear them!

Hey Mark; thanks for your review. I am not surprised that the separates system did as well or better, it's easier to avoid coloring sound when you can separate the amp from the processor. I am impressed by the things I continue to hear about the Outlaws. One thing I wish you'd tried (for my own curiosity) was using the preouts of the AVR300 to drive the Outlaw amp. That would have given you a more direct comparison of the processing abilities of the two (and hence a better clue to the higher end Arcam processor). Also, I wish you had because I'm considering getting an outboard amp and letting my AVR300 drive it as an entry way into the world of separates, and I am curious how much of a difference it is likely to make. Still, excellent and thoughtful review!

Do not pass "Go", do not collect $200 dollars; run-don't-walk to the store and go get that RC-7. I had the -35 series (like your rc-3 no slouch), but the improvement in upgrading to the rc-7 was one of the largest single upgrades I've done. Especially for movie dialogue (and even more for off-axis listening). Seriously, you will not regret it.

Meagain - I was originally using a $550 Yamaha reciever, no competition there. I also tested a Denon (don't remember which now, was in the $1,000+ range) and a Pioneer Elite. I also heard (but did not test on my system) a Pioneer Elite driving a Sunfire amp, and it didn't sound as good, but that's not really a fair comparison. I have never A/Bed with tubes. Honestly, at this point I don't really even care, because I enjoy my music enough. I would like to get a better CD player, or a really good universal player (like the new Marantz...) and perhaps eventually a separate amp, but I'm quite happy with the WVR300 as a reciever / future pre/pro to not think about updating it until hi-def audio formats for movies (e.g. Blu-ray_ become prevalent enough to worry about it.

Let me suppliment MarkBK's comments by adding that the build quality is truly top notch. And of course as a reciever you can indeed control the volume by a remote, although the manual volume control has a very nice feel to it as well. I really can't say enough about the musicality of this reciever, so I'm thrilled that I (well, and the reviewers) aren't the only ones to think so. For what it's worth to home theater buffs, the separation and localization of surrounnd effects (especially in PLIIx mode) is stunning as well. I notice every time I go watch movies anywehere else. Even watching tv in PLIIx mode I'm shocked at how well their implimentation creates full 7.1 surround out of 2.0 and 5.1 (with high def) feeds. I still eagerly await the report on the Outlaw separates, but for someone who wants the convenience of a reciever without sacrificing much of the musicality of a dedicated 2 channel separates system, it's the only way to go.

Hey MarkBK, glad you're enjoying them. To be honest, I have never, ever heard a reciever as musical as the AVR300. I tend to downplay my enthusiasm when others ask because I know that sound preference is somewhat subjective, but my response was along the lines of yours. I would predict that it will actually eclipse the Outlaw separates, but I am very curious to hear your impression. When I raved about the AVR300 before, some people pointed out that it lacked some things (e.g. hdmi switching and auto E.Q.) that many HT buffs want, and of course they are right; if those things are important to a buyer then the AVR300 isn't a good deal, especially considering the price of the Pioneer Elite series. That said, for those who want truly audiophile 2 channel and multi channel music out of a HT septup, I can't recommend the Arcam enough. While high end separates surely sound better (including Arcam's own products), I haven't heard a system of separates that sounded better than didn't cost at least a grand more. So if you want a combination of music and movies, it's a bargain, especially since you cann use the preouts with a outboard amp if you wanted to in the future to make one truly fantastic system. That said, I haven't heard the newer Outlaw separates, so again I eagerly await your impressions.

I'm pretty certain you can't buy Arcam products online (ebay excepted...). Arcam expects a level of support from its dealers that can't be offered by online dealers. I looked around myself, and didn't find any discounters, although the dealer in Fort Collins, CO (a 1.5 hour drive from where I lived at the time) did give me $150 off retail plus a couple of free SACDs. I agree that you need to listen to it to make up your own mind, but I have never regretted my purchase. The movie surround is fantastic, and the two channel sounds as good as many mid-level separates I've heard (although high-quality separates are obviously better yet). Good luck to both of you in your decisions!

Funny - I have always preferred Blu-ray, but I thought the time to market lead of HD-DVD was going to be decisive (back when they were going to have a Q3-Q4 2005 launch). But they have totally blown their lead; They missed extra market penetration during the Christmas season, and they seem to be hemoraging support left and right. They only have one exclusive movie studio, while Blu-ray has several. Outside of Toshiba there are essentially no HD-DVD players announced (save one rebranded OEM version by Thomson). Worse they are now expecting a late March launch, which is like no lead at all over the April launch of several BD players. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting your information on the PS3 from, because everything I've read expects the PS3 to lauch from as early as March to as late as May (2006). So BD players may actually be out before HD-DVD players. With a gaurantee of half a million BD playing PS3s, better studio support, more content early on, and more players announced, I can't see how BD can lose at this point. Also, the largest adult-content movie company just announced exclusive support for BD, and while that sounds like something to snicker at, history shows it is an important determiner of early market penetration (pun not intentional), as it helped VHS beat Beta, and aided iin the early adoption of DVD. It also plays a small role in this thing called the internet... Anyways, I have to eat crow, as I thought HD-DVD was a shoe-in back in September. But they failed to execute, and now it seems that the format war is Blu-ray's to lose.

I am, and I love it. It has the best Dolby PLIIx implimentation I've ever heard (for creating 7.1 sound from 5.1 source). Also it kicks some hard-core butt at 2 channel music. It's true direct pass-through for analog inputs (e.g. SACD or CD playback from high-end cd players) is unsurpassed IMHO, since it actually shuts down the non-used electronics to reduce noise. I used it to drive RF-35s (plus the rest of a -35 7.1 system) before I upgraded to an RF-7 based surround system. I used it without an amp for about a month when I got the RF-7s, and I was astounded at how similar the music quality was with and without an outboard amp. The soundstage widened significantly when I got my Carver Pro amp, but otherwise there was little change, even in bass quality, which surprised me. I imagine that if you biamped your mains rather than using the last two outputs for 7.1 (like me) it would sound even more impressive. I can't recommend this amp enough; if you are looking for an audiophile-level reciever (I know, an oxymoron...) this is about as close as they come. I've listenet to Pioneer Elites and much of the Denon range (although not their 5000 series) and IMHO they don't hold up, but obviously you'll have to decide for yourself. Also, the Arcam doesn't have automatic room callibration, nor does is have HDMI connections (I hook mine directly from source to my tv), so that may play a role depending on your needs. Good luck!

A 7.1 reciever will happily run a 5.1 system - I did it myself with two of my recievers, until I got the last two surrounds.