jdm56

uh, see below.

An outed tone control user - that's me! Actually, I'd prefer to bypass'em, but the fact of the matter is they sometimes can help. And while I'm admitting things; I have been so frustrated with this room/bass problem that I am even at the point of considering selling my 'horns. I can't believe I'm actually thinking/saying that, but it's true. I have experimented, and come to the conclusion that adding a belle klipsch center speaker would greatly smooth and boost the bass below 100hz, so that was the plan until - poof! - no Heritage speakers are being made for the time being. And when production resumes, there will no doubt be a substantial price increase. It was gonna be a stretch affording one at the old price, even with a generous dealer discount. And I still would want a pair of heresys for surround, and possibly a sub or two. And then there's SACD / DVD-A... ...So, where does this leave a working class audiofool with a mortgage, one stay-at-home wife, two kids and #3 on the way? I'll tell you where: doing some serious math. I figure when the new heritage prices come out, my horns are going up in value, too. So maybe I'd be better off with a more affordable, tunable system. Something like the new Reference sats, with a sub that I could place where it would rock my music room. Oh, I dunno. I must be nuts. I'm even thinking about some other "high value" speaker brands, like Paradigm and Definitive Technology. Somebody slap me. Maybe I could get on "Millionaire"... - ------------------ JDMcCall

I gotta say I really get a kick out of this chit-chat about the jubilee and the new Reference Series. especially that "King Tut" reference. 'Bout lost my Big Red on that one. But then again, I have no life. I too, am looking forward to hearing/seeing/smelling/touching some of the soon to be released Reference speakers. They do indeed look promising; and yes, make that "in the klipsch tradition". Uh, sorry if I touched a nerve, Jim. I'm still a klipsch fan, so let me try to 'splain: What I was really getting at was, I suppose when it comes down to it, is actually the difference in a small, entepeneurial operation (Klipsch' early days), and a large, global operation with hundreds of employees that has to make a certain amount of profit (Klipsch today). I guess the thing I was alluding to, as far as a company being engineering driven or marketing driven, is the tendency for most large speaker companies to introduce new products with much fanfare, at relatively frequent intervals, as being the best/lowest distortion/most accurate, blah, blah, blah ever, only to disappear from the marketplace in a few years...just in time for the next "greatest speakers on earth" to be announced. OK. I'm a big boy. I know companies have to move product. And perhaps it is not in most audio manufacturers best interest to "evolve" models indefinitely, BUT...that is at least partly why you have the enthusiasm on this BB that you do. That sense of continuity and "heritage", which is a distinct part of the appeal of the classic PWK designs. This, as opposed to "me too, here today / gone tomorrow" design and marketing. Oh well, I hope the new Reference Series is a smashing success and makes Klipsch lots of money. And that it'll still be around come 2011. At least. ------------------ JDMcCall

I saw a new pair of 50th ann. klipschorns at a dealer in Springfield, MO. Somebody must have forgot to tell them what the MSRP was, because they were asking $llk for them. (Or more, possibly. I've slept since then.) In fact, I saw them and listened to them a number of times and the last time I was there, they still had them! That's been probably at least a couple of years ago, though. They were gorgeous, but honestly, I prefer the standard issue variety.

I'm with you on this one, sunnysal. My experience with klipschorns is like yours; I love the mids and highs, but bass is...problematic. I think the reason for the difference of opinions is mostly due to the differences in room acoustics. And also, the differences in hearing from person to person. I hear so many comments on the "rough" k-horn midrange, but I just don't hear a problem. In fact, the mids are for me, their stongest area. In my room, bass is rough below 100hz. Subjectively, it can sound absolutely great on one CD, then thin on the next. No doubt part of this is just the speaker "telling it like it is", but the overall impression is that the bass is just a little light. I sometimes just crank the bass a few dB, but this doesn't always cut it. ------------------ JDMcCall

mwiener, But it's a lot more practical (and attainable) than a soundproof room in your attic. But seriously wiener - if I may call you wiener - it does get kind of crazy if you let yourself start obsessing over sound. And I'm speaking as a practicing audio obsessive myself. I may have to enter a twelve step program to learn how to be at peace with sonic imperfection, as it seems perfection is unattainable; at least on my budget. -JDM

BG, I wouldn't hold my breath, waiting for the second coming of the Klipsch Forte. But I must say I think the Forte and the Chorus were excellent speakers in the klipsch tradition. What saddens me is to see Klipsch moving away from that tradition. A tradition of a great basic design that is then tweaked to near perfection over the course of its maufactured life. They seem to be becoming a marketing driven company as opposed to an engineering driven company. A follower of trends rather than a follower of their own vision. ------------------ JDMcCall

Jim, I don't think stacking them will be harmful, unless you get hit by a tornado or an earthquake, in which case it probably wouldn't make much difference either unless you were laying on the floor by them. I can't help you on the other question, but I've got a ? 4 U; Do you have the top pair inverted, with the woofer on top? If you don't, you might try it. That seems to be a layout favored by some notable high-end speaker makers, such as Dunlavy and Montana, among others. If you try it, let me know how the sound compares, OK? Just curious. Oh, and as far as looks go, if you like the sound better with the top speaker "upside down", you could probably remove the riser base and place it in between the speakers, maybe with some type of gasketing material between it and the speakers.

djk, No, my music room is 18.5 X 16 X 8.67, with the speakers on the long wall. When I was trying to come up with dimensions for it, my main concern was not to have pile-ups of room modes. And I was successful, but maybe too successful. A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Because I apparently have come up with dimensions that are not conducive to smooth klipschorn bas below 100hz. It's pretty good at 40 and 63hz, but down at 50 and 80hz. I've measured two speakers and one subwoofer at the corner location and all three were down at 50 and 80 hz, but not as severely as the 'horns. I assume because they are more "in the corner" than the other two. (The other two were placed directly in front of the right 'horn. After all this measuring and comparing, I'm convinced that a belle or a cornwall in the middle would solve the bass problem (at least, down to 40 hz). Now if I could just find a belle or a cornwall! Preferably a belle because of the overall higher sensitivity, which matches the cornerhorns. I guess klipschorns are even more sensitive to room dimensions than I realized. I always thought as long as you had good corners, you were 90% there. But if you stop and think about how "normal" speakers bass performance is affected by even small changes in placement or listening spot, and that with cornerhorns, you are so much more limited in those areas, I guess it should not be so surprising. You are more or less at the mercy of the room. ------------------ JDMcCall

I say "Nay" to the naysayers! Let's not jump to conclusions. If Bob G. says Heritage speakers (other than heresy IIs) are only going to be unavailable till their driver supply problems are sorted out, that's good enough for me. So let's just hang on to our collective hats until August or so, and see if this thing blows over. Personally, since I'm still trying to put together a multi-channel heritage system, I just can't conceive of klipsch killing off the klipschorn, belle klipsch and la scala. At least not as long as there is a horn loaded breath in PWK. ------------------ JDMcCall

Yo BG, Read the preceeding posts in this thread. According to those who should know, the Heritage speakers are "merely" temporarily unavailable while some drivers from different vendors are being put through the paces. Seems a long time supplier has gone belly up. Look for them sometime late this summer with perhaps new and improved drivers (and no doubt, new and improved prices). -JDM

Yo BG, Read the preceeding posts in this thread. According to those who should know, the Heritage speakers are "merely" temporarily unavailable while some drivers from different vendors are being put through the paces. Seems a long time supplier has gone belly up. Look for them sometime late this summer with perhaps new and improved drivers (and no doubt, new and improved prices). -JDM

John, After much moving and measuring, I settled (for now) on a listening spot a little closer to the back wall, but not enough to ruin imaging. Here, the 50 and 80hz notches measure a somewhat more tolerable 12 and 8dB down from the midrange level, respectively. It's amazing how small differences in the location of spl meter generate big measurement differences. I wonder how accurate those things really are anyway. Sometimes the measured change from one test frequency to the next don't seem to match what my ears tell me. Also, when moving the sub around, I was surprised at how great a change was displayed even by variations of less than a foot in sub placement. I don't recall; do you use a center channel with your la scalas for stereo? -JDM

John, Surely notches this deep aren't typical. I'm talkin' 18dB down at 50hz; 12dB down at 80hz. Response at 31.5, 40, 63 and 100hz on up is pretty normal for k-horns, I believe. And yet, if I measure close to the back wall, response smoothes out while overall bass level comes up. Which would be great except for the lousy imaging from there. I'm really hoping the addition of a full range center will help. And as soon as I win the lottery, maybe one or two of those new Klipsch Reference subs! Actually, didn't PWK recommend that the ideal listening room for klipschorns would include a sweet spot against the rear wall? Maybe I should get the hammer and saw out and go to work... ------------------ JDMcCall

Hi WS, I know a lot of folks swear by their tube gear, but inegrating 2 channel tube amps and pre-amps with a full blown HT rig could be pretty pricey. Seems to me a good compromise might be some really high quality / high value A/V separates. Personally, I think the Sony rig you mentioned would definitely be a killer - if not the last word in audiophile sound. I read a review of a Belles Research amp that can be had in two or three channel form. It uses MOSFET output devices, which in my limited experience have yielded very smooth, natural, "low glare" sound. They're American made, and the price is reasonable. (Around $1600-$2000, I believe) You might find the review if you're interested. It was in the 12/00 Stereophile, I believe. It might be in the archives on their website, too. Anyway, just a thought from another "workin' stiff" k-horn fan.

I know that some of you guys use a full range center speaker with two-channel systems, driven with a summed left plus right signal. I am curious about your experience with this type of set-up with regards to overall bass output. Did the addition of the center smooth or increase total output below 100hz or so? My k-horns in my music room suffer from deep response notches at approximately 50hz and 80 hz. This is observed at the listening position of choice. The only way to smooth it out is to sit right against the back wall, but this is too far from the horns axis, which just destroys lateral imaging. So, last night I was experimenting with the addition of a small subwoofer in the spot on the front wall where I hope to eventually install a belle klipsch or a cornwall center. And low and behold if that little sub didn't come on strong exactly where the cornerhorns are weak! Their output was strong at 50 and 80 hertz, but was down at 40, 100 and 125 hertz where the cornerhorns are strong. After I positioned the sub directly in front of the right k-horn, I remeasured and it's response was very similar to the big horns except for being way down in overall sensitivity, of course. All this has me thinking a center channel belle will actually smooth my systems bass output PLUS add the center fill to my "long wall" set-up that was my reason for wanting it in the first place! I'd appreciate hearing about anyones experience along these lines. ------------------ JDMcCall

As for klipschorn, belle klipsch and la scala power handling, my latest literature states it as 100W continuous, 400W peak. ------------------ JDMcCall

Commercially available "ready-to-wear" subs to mate with klipsch horn-loaded woofers...hm, could be very difficult to come by. But, if you've got the bucks, Legacy makes a big, bad, dual 15" driver job that just might keep up - to a point! Also, I think the big VMPS subs would do a good job. Oh, and Gold Sound used to offer a kit subwoofer using an 18" JBL driver in a BIG enclosure. Seems the rated sensitivity was mid to upper 90's. ------------------ JDMcCall

Just curious; why did your wife like the B&K receiver better? Did she think it was ~prettier~? ------------------ JDMcCall

Clint, Yeah, Lexicon sources their power amps from Bryston. Gotta give'm credit; Brystons hard to beat if you've got the jack. JDM

Thanks, Bob, for your latest posts on this topic. I consider that to be the "gospel according to klipsch" as far as heritage speaker changes, pricing and availabilty. My anxiety is relieved. I just wish I'd gotten a new belle before all this transpired. Oh well, "He who hesitates is hosed." ...or something like that. ------------------ JDMcCall

Jim, Both the Cornwall and the Klipschorn are great, classic speakers. I owned cornwalls for about eight years. I sold them in '93(dumb, dumb, dumb) and after a five year sojourn in the wilderness of low efficiency and high distortion, am now happily back in the klipsch fold with a pair of klipschorns. Which is best? In the right room, k-horns without a doubt. At least to my ears. But, that little bit about the "right room" is very, very important! Klipschorns in a room that is too small, or that does not allow the listener to be seated at the proper distance from the speakers, are sure to disappoint. To get to the point, if you've got a good room for them, I don't think you'd ever regret getting k-horns. If you don't, you might be better off staying with the cornwalls, which allow much more flexibility in placement options. If all of lifes "problems" were this much fun... ------------------ JDMcCall

cls72, I would recommend F. Alton Everests, THE MASTER HANDBOOK OF ACOUSTICS. If you can't find it in a library or bookstore, you can get it from AudioAdvisor. As for foam placement, I think it's more or less the conventional wisdom to put it where the first reflections occur. ------------------ JDMcCall

I've long been intrigued by the possibilities that do open up with tri-amping a pair of horns. Particularly, if we are doing this in the digital domain, the opportunity to time align the outputs of the various horns. And due to the generous enclosure sizes we're dealing with, a powered, eq'd, electronically crossed over heritage system would be possible. I know, this is just late night, wild eyed audio fantasizing, but what the heck, I'm a late night wild eyed audiofool.

Ray and All, Yeah, BUT...it seems to me that a good ss amp even at it's worst, is going to have distortion components that are below the threshold of audibility for the overwhelming majority of people. Whereas tubes distortion are typically orders of magnitude higher, not to mention the often rolled off frequency extremes and susceptability to response variations relative to output impedence. (As you mentioned.) Still, I would not deride anyone who prefers "tube sound". But it just seems to me that euphonic distortion and frequency abberations are just not what "high fidelity" is supposed to be about. ------------------ JDMcCall