Groomlakearea51

I agree, crates for the really expensive stuff is the best!, especially if it's a two way deal so you get your "crate" back.... Interestingly, the actual UPS Stores (generally not UPS "representatives", drop off points, etc.) now have really good boxes. Pricey, but perfect. My favorite for speakers is their 20 x 20 x 24 tall, double thick box designed for moving or shipping dishes/ glasses. I buy two of them for each speaker, and slide the one over the other as the final part. Very tight fit and you have to work at it, but it is like armor... For spacers, it's Ace Hardware.... and a 12 pack of 14" x 48" x 1/2" thick styro board. For "bulking" the corners, or odd spaces, I use shredded paper stuff from the office; it's old style, but is great for corners, and between a styro board/ cardboard and a woofer speaker cone to keep it from moving around; I always pack the speaker grills on the back of the speaker sandwiched between two pieces of cardboard to keep them "flat".

I was gonna post my wife's bikini shot (real fine....), but she just walked in the door and slapped me again..... I hate that when she does that... Not that it has anything to do with the top ten, but she shore' makes listnin' real good... Ok, she left and I'm off the hook..... My top ten.... But please consider my "scale": (a) Good Sound Reproduction ( Versatility in Placement and Use © Cost Effectiveness; and (d) Can We Fix them or Repair Them Without Selling Our Firstborn for Paltry Sums... 1. Klipschorn's; hands down, with the horn loading, even at very low volumes, regardless of the amp type, etc. they simply are really that good; if older than 10-15 years, should be recapped or ALK'd (the Gods of Technology do have merits); only drawback is the "footprint", but given the sound, just knock down a wall or two... 2. Heresy's; don't laugh... they are an extremely versatile and useful speaker. They are built like a tank, simple to maintain, easy to "fix", or upgrade, forgiving in the amp arena, and they can do about everything that most "bookshelf" systems will do, and for the price (H-I's and H-2's) can do a great job in most applications. The test... Consider that half the time when you are simply too busy to really enjoy your B&W's, etc., having a plain ole' pair of Heresy's runnin' in the background can just make it a great day... 3. LaScala's (Belles also); Can do the "big jobs", barely small enough "footprint", extremely versatile in application (risk dragging your Dahlquist's, etc. out on the back porch...); great common parts!; and they really are very, very good.... Belles are tricky to place, pricey, and very "furniture" oriented, and are usually out of the average folk's price range. Oh well.... 4. JBL 4311/4312/4313 series. While they were called "studio monitors", or "control monitors", the versatility in placement, the ability to "tune" them behind the grill, etc., made them an ideal "workhorse". If I ever get the urge to get rid of my Heresy's, I would go back to 4311's. Having had a bazillion of them, I can really say that they are a good solid and high quality speaker. 5. Acoustic Research AR-1's, 2's, etc. Old, no longer around, but if you find a pair, oh well, I'm still amazed at how really good they are when I visit my friends that have them. I still can't believe I sold the old AR's I had for 20 years... 6. Klipsch RF series; reason... that tractrix horn and the refinements they have made in the "vertical linear array", is simply world class. Pricey, but very, very good and they will match most ES type arrays made 20 years ago (had a pair and I kick myself for selling them). 7. Bose 901; don't shoot me.... Consider the footprint.... If hooked up properly....., and with a powerful amp, they can get you arrested for disturbing the peace. I had several pairs of the original type 1's and 2's, and they worked just fine. Actually they worked very well... I know it's a "heresy" to speak about Bose here, but they are a really good choice when you have weird space problems that eliminate the Klipschorn/ LaScala/ Belle choices. 8. Cornwall; sorry.. but the footprint (and the price, even for a used pair!) is getting close to what you would need for a pair of used Klipschorn's or LaScala's. They sound very, very good, but what are you really getting when looking at cost vs benefit? That being said, if you are into jazz, classical or low volume rock, they really work well in medium size living rooms. They look good, and can be easily upgraded with better crossovers, etc. 9. Infinity's; in particular the smaller bookshelf systems; really great sound for the size, small amps will drive them well; were very good quality; very reliable (unless you simply overdrive them...) 10. Any old Altec Lansings in good working order!!! IMO only

Tweeter only; move woofer as far south as possible to clear braces; may be put tweeter on bottom to lower it to listener level (they will be about 4-5' off the ground.

I agree; I did spend a few extra bucks a few years ago on some heavier color coded cables for connecting the amps to the redirect source, but it was to prevent eventually accidentally "pulling" the leads off the jacks themselves. On the el cheapo's that are not "24k gold plated" (or somesuch bs...), about once a year, pull them all off and clean them with deoxit, etc. Once a year (spring system cleaning...), I trim about an inch off the speaker wires exposing fresh (no oxidation) wire. I still have my "el cheapo" factory RCA jack wires from an old, old casette deck from about 1979 and still use them without any problems.

Sorry, 400's, I get all confused these days.... Although, let's get out the saw, plywood, and... oh well, I'll just get yelled at again....

Correct, it could be, at least partially, the same phenomenon with diving; there is a definite "density" issue with salinity related in the thermoclines (10% between fresh and salt at the same temperature, generally regardless of depth), but it's also related to the water's temperature, thus how much salt is in solution; coupled with the density. Humidity plays a great part, but I've noticed that baro pressure and temperature plays a great part also. On a cold night right after a front went through, say 50 degrees and 65% humidity, I can hear a CD playing (provided my wife's not home...) at the end of the pasture (250 yards) as if I was on the porch. But..... on a hot Florida night, low humidity (still about 90 degrees out..., no rain for a week), I cannot hear anything really intelligible until I'm almost back to the barn. From the "water" point of view, with temperature layers (especially differing more than 1-2 degrees C), sound has a marked tendency to "bounce" off these thermoclines especially the high freq's associated with, shall we say, machinery in subs, metal hitting metal, divers banging their tanks, etc. That's why we taped off and soundprooofed (in the day, in another life...) anything that may "clank" when underwater. On the job as the Dive Officer down here, however, we started using an underwater comms system (divers can't drop down and just sit on the bottom and screw off anymore...[]), but the old one lost the low end really bad in the audible speech area (sort'a like the midrange?...) as distance increased (inverse law); the new one, however has a higher freq range transducer and while things are "tinny", we can get further from the topside tender. We did notice that if we poked our heads through a t-cline, we would pick up the lost bottom end, but again this is associated with "speech" freqs on this piece of equipment. That being said, in water, as most know, since it does not compress like air, sound travels much faster, and due to the scattering effect, it's very difficult to pinpoint the source the further away without arrays of multiple transducers (mic's). Also, the "comb" interference effect is very evident at low freq's in water, making low "rumbles" very difficult to pinpoint because they drop in and out, dependent on the freq, depth, and presence of thermoclines. So... Could it be a combination of ambient temps, humidity, and the effects of the crossovers on the drivers. There is a possibility that given your description of the "bowl", that there very well may be a high humidity and cooler (more dense) layer from the low point in the bowl to several feet off the ground, or at least until it really warms up in the afternoon. Was what you described very "directional" or was there a noticiable loss of directivity (close your eyes and point to the speaker test) at all? I'm curious because it's getting cool enough down here in the swamp in the Sunshine State for a fall Oktoberfest party...; and if I drag my LaScalas outside on the porch, put the 6 kegs for all 3 of us out in the middle of the pasture, put the horses in the barn, grab the lawn chairs....... just kidding... it's only 2 kegs.... Ask Mr. Klappenberger about the ES's, he may have an idea.

I'm almost finished with a H-I restoration project and had some spare 3/4 birch left. Was wondering about cutting a couple of driver boards with the squawkers and tweeters aligned vertically, and then place the speaker "laying" down. The boards would be "mirror imaged" when installed with bass drivers inboard. I've checked the forum and can't really find anything recent about doing this, other than just laying them down on the side. I'd like to fool around with this and at least test a pair before final stapling, gluing and finishing; and if it does not work, then just install the standard boards. Anyone tried this? Specific placement? Problems?

For Mr. Colterphoto1, sent you a forum email re: cost; but for everyone, it was about $15 or $20, I don't remember. I'm still trying to remember where I saw that stuff for sale. When I do I'll post it. For Mr. Lostinozz, you are right about undercoating, it's designed to "ooze" to reduce salt and dirt adhering to it for as long as possible. The "Rhinoliner" stuff is apparently different; it completely "cures" in about 24 hours, but retains the flexibility to act as a dampening agent. Key is letting it cure..... couple days in the Sunshine State at a UV index of a bazillion plus and them baby's are ready... I can just sorta' picture Mr. Crites look when he gets set of crossovers covered with something out of the old scifi movie, the "blob".

Didn't shoot the K-77, dishwasher cleaned it up great. Difference between gloss and flat can be measured here by the following equation: WAF=C x G/F(ITG x DTP)/SAIF where I'm solving for WAF WAF = Wife Acceptance Factor C=cost of a can of the stuff G=glossy appearance value (predetermined by WAF studies) F=Flat appearance value (predetermined by WAF studies) ITG=What's in the garage DTP= Distance to find it (in feet) SAIF=Sam Adams missing from fridge from last WAF related inventory.... So,.... WAF=2.5 x 10/8(2 x 30)/3 In this case, WAF = 62.5 and since it was below 75%, I got yelled at for (1) spraying them on the back porch and gettin the spray on the 'tomater plants, and (2) letting them dry on the kitchen table (and y'all thought I wasn't technical oriented...)

I agree with everyone; it's going to be a real pain to strip the bass port area (I know....); Alas, it truly is a buyer's market right now. I only paid about $750 for a fairly nice (considering the age) 77' LSBR pair with sequential serial numbers about 6 months ago. But the suggestion regarding veneering would be great, but the stripping required to prep the surface for the veneer would be a massive project (again, I know...). Stripping can be an issue if one is not careful... There are a number of industrial strippers that, while will really strip...) will also damage the glue that holds the top layer of the birch veneer. That was, however, quite useful in my KCBR K'horn project with chipped veneer all over the front of the bass bin. Used the "stripper from hell" and was able to easily remove the front veneer to get ready for the new veneer. I also considred the options with my pair of LS's that had been shellac'd. After much "consulting", my "advisors" , (woodworking folks) agreed that the only way to really veneer them would be to completely dissassemble them. Not an option, really, murphy's law applies, and something won't come undone, and I'd end up cutting panels, etc. So I removed the drivers, cleaned them up, cleaned up the horns (ran them through the dishwasher....), nice thin coat of flat epoxy enamel on inside of the 700's, BEC's AA recap's, new bass panel and gasket on the bottom, and into service until I "git a round too-it" and strip them for a nice stain, etc. They sound great (except for them pesky soap bubbles comin' outa' the horns... - JUST KIDDING...) Eventually, when I pull them out for the project, I'll probably add one of the bass port mods discussed on the forum.

Agree with Mr. Colterphoto1; I took a pair of my 400's and 700's to the local "Rhino-liner" guy and left them there and when he did the next truck bed, voila! The stuff is relatively thick, say about 1/8", and is somewhat elastic/rubbery. Dampens very well. Only thing I had to do was screw the horns to pieces of plywood and put a plastic cap over the driver ends to keep the rhino stuff out. Once it's on, it's on forever.... but then again, it's truck bed liner.... Notes: the guy asked me how thick and I told him "truck bed thick", but he said he could keep adding more if I needed. He also told me that he could not spray that stuff on plastics, the curing chemicals are powerful and can "craze", or deform the plastic when it cures (there is some heat involved from the chemical reaction in the components) They look fine and if you did not know it, you would think they came that way.

Let's do the Forte and see how it works (the Heresy-I's came out perfectly) Call me when you are ready to send the pieces and for for me to start "cuttin". Done got me some new saw blades and a very, very expensive miter/ chop saw.... Where are We Going (What's the Mission....): Do exact measurments on a cabinet/ enclosure and all parts, then construct an exact set of replacement panels, braces, etc., and save the template. If we're lucky, we'll be able to build a "database", with the parts/ pieces required, odd "peculiarities", tools, etc., on these (and other) enclosures (except the Klipschorns and LaScalas which are readily available). This is, I believe, something worth doing. Eventually, everyone who owns Heritage stuff will probably need to have the dimensions, materials list, tools required, etc. in case of damage, etc. If anybody has dimensions on the variety of speakers, maybe we ought to post them, at least for posterity. Ideas? Suggestions? (Heresy project is almost finished, just waiting for the final shipment of the factory spec'd laquer materials from Valspar/OPEX - Fixin' to take them thar pitchers' etc. ) Gotta run, the long boats call....

Well, in this day and age, D-Man is right; it is a desert, an intellectually black and lightless field of desolation, etc... I can say without equivocation (or to rephrase it for those of us at or below the common denominator: without any reasonable doubt...), that without the Forum, it's members (all inclusive, the "techs", the afficionados, and all of us in the "great unwashed masses - toiling in the fields as we must do" bunch...), and the resources it provides us in the realm of beginning to understand why the Klipsch sound is what it is, we would surely be in sore, or worse, dire straits. Philosophically, one (love that third person stuff), could say that on that desolate field of audiophile desolation lie the blackened bones of the now countless numbers, who when, given a moment of respite (listened to Klipsch), simply gave up, bought the Bose crap and died.... In any event, Forum's great stuff; best reading I've done in a long while!! Hope everyone keeps it up!!!

The problem is the MDF which does not like water... If they are completely "destroyed", if you would like, break one down and send me one of them (all the pieces, minus the drivers), and I'll take a look and try to redo a cabinet from 3/4" furniture grade birch and send it back to you. No cost! You send the old one, I'll send the new one. If you like that, we can go from there. No obligation! It's a hobby and I have almost a full sheet of Russian/ Karelian furniture grade birch left from my current Heresy & Klipschorn projects. You can call me at 863-357-1600 between 6:00 AM and 2:00 PM EST. Hobby is restoring Klipsch speakers that were otherwise headed to the dumpster...

I can assure you that the "Wall of Voodoo" is downright illegal unless my wife is out of the house. If I even suspect she's coming through the front farm gate, we go back to SPL -10.... She does let me have fun with it on Friday evening and Saturday, unless the chores ain't done..... As I mentioned to someone else on the Forum, in about 30 months, 1 week, 2 days, 14 minutes...., I'll be finally retired, kids will be gone, and we're moving back to Arkansas, and I'm "gonna build me" a serious dedicated room just to really explore positioning and experiment with drivers, crossovers, etc.. By that time I'll have some measuring equipment and really be able to play with it. But for now, as my old rules of engagement from active duty say, "When in doubt, firepower is the answer...".

The "image" does not seem to be blurred (to my ears), but read the system description and see if it makes more sense. Consider it as a "horizontal array" of Klipschorns on the outer corners, second pair of Klipschorns on false inner corners (the outer walls of the 50" wide component rack cabinet), and a pair of LaScalas as the "center channel". Put a pair of Heresy's on the Klipschorn pairs and adjust them/ aim them to compensate for standing waves, nulls, lobes, etc. Idea is to produce a "wall of sound", but at low to moderate volumes. Works well, but still "fiddling" with inner Klipschorns (thus the diagrams) and "toe in/out" Heresy angles. Each pair of speakers is driven independently by it's own amp (A, B, or C). The exception are the Heresy's which are speaker system "b" on amps A & B (the Klipschorn's).The amps are 110 WPC/RMS, but they are very "clean", and distortion is very, very low (0.008 both THD and IMD). No bass, mid, or treble is used; all tone controls are off/defeated. Not necessary and I like "flat" as the audio version of WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get...). The beauty of the system is that I can listen to one, two, or all three, or any combination. If I'm working in the room (doubles as the home office), I can simply listen to CNN on the LaScalas or a pair of Heresy's. If I get the urge, oh well, it can become the "Wall of Voodoo".... I can also customize the room acoustics for particular program source, as an example, by picking one pair of Klipschorns and one pair of Heresy's, etc. For movies, the inner pair of Klipschorns (because they are, in substance, reflecting off the outer walls of the room), with the outer Heresy's gives an almost a "surround" effect. The system is, in subtsance, a single tier "cascade" that feeds up to four amps by an identical 250 mV signal from an AX-7 mixer; All audio input sources (DTV, CD, casette, turntable, DVD, etc.) go through an Esoteric Sound Super Connector; I simply pick which source I want to listen to and turn the switch. It's entirely passive, thus no signal degradation. The ESSC send this signal to the AX-7. It's active, and once I've set the volume levels I want on the amp(s), it allows master volume control for each, some, or all amps that are turned on. In substance, what I'm doing is also adjusting the room's acoustics by "amplitude". It's not as efficient as using, let's say, parametric equalizers on the amps, or the myriad other methods (and probably much better) but it works well (and since I'm married with children, and have never have any money, I might as well figure out how to configure the speakers...) All equipment is protected and isolated from the "wall socket" by Fuhrman M-8D "rack rider" protectors; if the voltage is below 120 (which seems to be a problem in rural Florida...), we don't turn stuff on... Spare pair of Klipschorns being redone but am looking at false corners or modifying them into a sort of Jubilee type and putting them in as pair K-2.

On the diagrams where the inner Khorn's are not in a "real corner", they would also have the "false corners" on the inboard and/or outboard sides. Again this is just some "ideas" thrown out there. With respect to the Jubilee idea, I'm looking at possible modifications on the pair currently being refinished.

DIAGRAM IS TOO SMALL; HERES A LARGER VERSION (IF IT WILL POST)

Diagram Explanation: No curtains (36" hard plastic vertical blinds, recessed in window well on left side only); No plants, etc. Small solid wood antique desks with drawers on each side wall about 8' down; symetrically opposed and same shape, design, etc. 7'6" (almost to the ceiling) tall square enclosed cabinets in opposing rear corners. Floors are hardwood, no rugs. "Seating area" is a small bed on solid wood, enclosed frame (looks like a box with a matress and bedspread - room does double duty) When I'm in there just listening to music or watching a movie, the door is shut. Otherwise when I'm doing work at my desk, it's open, but then the volume level on pair #1 or pair #2 is at a very low volume. One reason it may not sound too bad (to my ears) is because the room is relatively small (20 x 20), and the waves are simply bouncing off everything, in every direction, at any appreciable volume, and I just can't tell the difference. Below are some other configuration diagrams that I'm looking at. I've emailed them to a couple Forum members to take a look at and give me some opinions before I start cutting wood, etc.

Well, line 'em up, read them their rights, and if they even think about it, bust 'em[] The problem I had was related to Florida's humidity. We moved here after the military and after about 10 years started having all kinds of oxidation problems on contacts, speaker wire corrosion, etc. [:'(] After the BIG argument with my wife over the minimal savings on the electric bill by setting it at 78-80 during the day..., and after looking at the repair bills for the equipment due to oxidation and other failures, I finally put my foot down and it stays at 76 24/7. Result, the problems have ceased. [] By then, however, the damage to the K-33 was done and it was just a matter of time. The older, the more susceptible probably. I'd pay "perticler tenshun to them 77' LaScalas". []

Mark1101, that is so cruel, but funny[] A K-33-B from my original pair of KC-BB's seized a few weeks ago (really, locked up tight!), but I arrested it, charged it with failure to work when asked, and threw it in the jail dumpster for life....[]. Over time, the nickel/chrome plating on the cylinder interiorwall just peeled and caught. It was 27 years old, and had faithfully served after been dragged around all over the world.[] In re: Help; In any event, I agree with Mark, check everything and the connector wires from the crossover if you can. If you can, swap it with the other side and see if it works in the other speaker, etc. Isolate the problem. Be thankful it's not a K-33 from a K'horn.... That's a pain. You can also disconnect it and use a multimeter and check the resistance. I don't recall what it should be, but assuming you've isolated it as the speaker itself, unless other members have other potential solutions, send an email to Bob Crites and see if he has any ideas or advice.

Dr Who Means of measuring? Other than what it sounds like, not yet, but am going to get more "edumacated" first. Then make a decision as required. Read the thread (twice....) started by Mas In regards to "Small Room Acoustics", one of the things that immediately made the most sense was, "Thus, to overly simplify, our need is to control the early reflections and create an effective ITD/ISD gap, and then to create an environment where the early reflections Lre are well behaved and not intrusive, as well as to diffuse the remaining Lre specular reflections into a pseudo reverberant field". As soon as I can get a chance, I will buy a copy Sound System Design. As for now, I'm wading through the study hall of Syn-Aud-Com articles on Proaudio's site. Got signed up for a couple of free tech magazine subscriptions too![]

For BS Button - At the expense of having my fingers cut off, the answer would be no: It's my wife's backup camera.... The older D-1's (of which this is one) are pretty cheap now (relatively anyways...), go to keh.com; you can find them for about $350-$450.

The WAF factor is extremely important [](trust me on this....) The K'horns, while about maybe 20% more expensive in the end run, will definitely do the job! He should have his my wife call my wife and talk about Klipsch from an aesthetic viewpoint. Just kidding![]