KT88

I understand your point very well. I have a 1977 Lascala with a Crites AA Xover. I also still have the original crossover, but the capacitors are not really good in values anymore, at least the capacitance values are not correct, if only measured with a handheld meter and 9V. The Crites crossover uses modern capacitors. But the original sound I remember differently. My guess is that not only the material is different but also the Q factor. The new film capacitors sound very accurate but too sharp with the K400 and K77 Alnico. I live very far from the Klipsch factory in Germany (but I have been to the factory in Hope :). I also believe that Klipsch no longer gets the original PIO car run capacitors. So my question to the expert, I want to give the Russian KBG- mn PIO types or the K75-10 types a chance. You hear very good things about them in many forums (for what it is worth) and you can get these types for 10 to 20 USD. To just try it out would be worth it with. The Q factor should be identical to the old PIO Klipsch capacitors (for a 1977 speaker). What do you think?

KT88, your comments about the New Sensor company worry me some as I've pretty much resolved myself to buying new production tubes vs. NOS simply due to cost. I understand that most if not all original tube manufacturers are gone and their equipment with them but is it really THAT hard to produce a new tube in this day and age that is the sonic match of NOS? As far as I know, the New Sensor company also provides Electro Harmonix which has a good reputation, especially for 12AX7 etc. My specific experience with the KT66 led me to the JJ company. That means that it is good news and really convenient to know to have new production of high quality tubes . I never said someone has to buy overexpensive NOS tubes at all. Just be careful which of the new ones are worth it to go. In case of EL34 there are much offers. And TBH, it seems, that the EL34 is not to difficult to built, so we have a lot of options. And also, the EL34 is a very good sounding design as well as it´s smaller brother, the EL84 is also. Look for winged C or other brands, In this case the gear of New Sensorcompany should be right. A EL34 is not so critical as a KT66 is.

My basic question is, does it matter if a tube, say an EL34, comes from a place like Audiotubes.com (Brent Jesse) or a musician supply site? no, if it is the same brand and time of production. The grading system I referenced above has no meaning to me so I was wondering if someone here spoke Musician and could translate. Tubes may differ in their operating points, in their amount of remaining air molecules, in their choice/geometry/design of materials considering plate and cathode. All has an certain impact on the character or quality of sound. At the end of the day, one dealer i.e. for guitar amp tubes may buy a big # of stock from different manufactures plus some NOS plus some used tubes. If he is clever he will just not "sell" tubes, he will earn some more money if he can offer a pre selection. And with this preselection he can dial in those mentioned marks plus some others, like optical impression, looks of carton, image of brand etc. Then he must find categories we can understand as consumers, like cold vs. warm, early break up vs. clean etc. There are tibe brands now in the market which arose from those work of selection. I.e. Grooce Tubes is such a case, they never produced only one single tube by themselves. Summarizing, it´s a all in all heavy stuff to get a step of knowlede in, like to become experienced with wines. As the other guys on this place here recommend, take advice from experienced and competend dealers. Another story is, if you want to enhance your own kowledge. If so, do it separately from your current needs for tubes. It will take long time and is based on much personal experience. In my view the market place is like a jungle. I had one personal experience when I needed new tubes for old Quad II amps. Originally they came with KT66 from Genalex. This tubes are famous for long duration and best sound in their applications. Today they are very expensive as NOS. This also know some clever marketing guys. Therefore a new KT66 Genalex appeared last year in the market. Very cool stuff I thought at the beginning and was happy to get a pair for a reasonable price. Then I looked at the web and found numbers of serious warnings against this tube. They have NOTHING to do with the quality of the originals. They are made by order, somewhere in Russia, and then sticked with labels and naming from the glory past days. The company who has discovered this possibility to make easy and fast money is called New Sensor, or so. They make the same trick with labeling old Tung Sol brand, Golden Lion and may be some others. They just bought the trade and brand rights. The quality is not much worse or better than former Sovtec gear, which was the predecessor brand made in the same Russian factories. Only a phone call with a competend dealer helped me to take the right decission: The new KT66 from JJ, Slowakia, which is the former Tesla brand and loction of production. That tube is not named after the original but very steep built like the original, with same materials, same geometry, a lot of research and stripping down some more NOS Genalex etc. I never would have found it without the experts help. Regarding your question how to compare musicians criteria with hifi criteria, read between the lines i.e. if you go i.e. to angela.com (just for your entertainment) you may find some nice descriptions about tubes brand character. But be aware, they like to sell stuff, there is no open critics against anything they sell. In generall, my view is that Musicians gear dealers tend to describe very subjectivly, and hifi dealers tend to overprice some good tube gear. Musicians shops will deliver what you need for your hifi, but the criteria are different. To get the right overdrive on the guitar an early point of nice distortion is helpful. For your hifi this could mean, that the sound gets anemic.

Yep, but if you listen i.e. to Ravel´s piano concert in G major you don´t need that slam, which is probably requested when listening to Count Basie or Billy Cobham.

Dear Max what happend to the site of your club? http://www.aca.gr It seems to be down, at least for the moment. Could be cool to become a member - and meet audiophile friends under the greek sun. I like to listen to the Rogers LS5/9. I had ordered custom tailored stands from my friend Les Wong, Walrus Hifi in London two years ago without bankrupting my account balance... http://www.walrus.co.uk/main/main.htm The stands are made by a company/man named somethingsolid http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/Speaker_Stands.html - I have the model of stands when you scroll down this site. I had to order new french tweeters made by Audax (happily this specific units are back in production). Great stuff. I could compare my Rogers with the newer Harbeth M30 in a friendly shop. The Rogers were superb in comparison which I think has to do with the better SPL balance between bass and tweeter at crossover frequency compared to the smaller tweeters built in at the more modern Harbeth, makes better sound to the Rogers regardless to the up to date material of the Harbeth woofer´s cone (Radial). Here is a interesting link regarding the development of the Rogers LS5/9 (for all you guys who are interested in audiophile history): http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1983-10.pdf It is mad to see the investments the BBC did by heart and pure interests in science in comparison to some other stupid hifi brands which are only motivated by making profit and good marketing. The (very only) downside I see is that the Rogers LS5/9 has a very strict and consequent loose of bass energy below let´s say 50 hz. Therefore I miss a little bit the warmth and ground, i.e. a Spendor BC1 can offer. The Spendor BC1 takes 40 hz which is around the deep e-string of a bass (and that is where the Jubilees are happily also in the game - and more deeper). But in all other regards, the Rogers is quite superior against the Spendor BC1 or SP1 - in my opinion. And to keep the church in the village, a German saying, free (and may be wrong translated), the Rogers is made for exactly those smaller rooms where the Jub cannot enter and vice versa - a good complement. Regards, Heinz

Max it´s very nice to meet you quasi personally and to have the opportunity to talk to you via this forum. I know this film almost since 2.5 years and it´s so funny and interesting. Me and my wife had some really big laughs because there are so much parallels among hifi lovers - and my wife saw that I am not the only crazy guy in the world regarding sound, gear and enjoyment and about listening to music. And also the film touches very deep emotions at the same time, showing impressions which are not to catch with words. I don´t know if your profession or other reasons will carry you out of Greek by time, but you are very welcome to have a listen to my Klipsch Jubilee two way system located in Cologne, Germany if you like. (source Meridian G08 and Oracle Delphi Mk V with SME V, C22 Pre, Yamaha SP2060 DSP/Xover, MC275 bass, Audion Silvernight 300B treble -> feeding the Klipsch Jubilees) Maron I have seen some of your posts time by time but until now I never had the need to reply on your thoughts. Now I would like to add my 2 cent. In my personal view and generally spoken, the whole hobby is about having fun, friendship, exchange of experiences, enrichment of knowledge and emotions, the chance for development - and so on. And it is really not about competition in the first place. And it is not about splurging at all, and it is not about making people upset or to insult them. It is interesting to see your arguments pro or contra regarding any kind of topic. But with reference to Klipsch products and/or Klipsch lovers, especially talking about Jubs, I feel an underlying note in your replies which - at least in my impression - seems to tend in a direction without giving a chance of generating an impartial discussion. To compare speakers I love my Jubs and I also own a pair of Tannoy Canterbury 15 alcomax with ST200 tweeters. And I had the chance more than once to listen to Tannoy Westminster Royals. What can I say. The Canterbury delivers a meaty and colorful sound. The single source concept is way to go. On the other hand, they are relatively slow and tend to tint the musical performance with, I admitt, nice color, icing the cake. But that means also it is shifting away from trying to keep it neutral. I must also note that my Canterbury are 20 years of age and despite changing caps etc. on my old item the Tannoy company has improved their line up as well as others will do, but the principals of Tannoy "coax sound" will stay. The Jubilee is another kind of breed. They represent my main system since one year now. I keep the Canterbury because I must not sell it, more or less for the joy of collecting things, like my old Quad ESL or the used Rogers LS5/9, originally installed in a BBC studio environment. The Jubilees also follows the approach to deliver a kind of single source sound when firing out most of the sound the ear can locate via one speaker and by generating one inherent sound wave as the result of the artful interaction between high-mid horn and bass bin. And the Jubilees are way faster and more transparent in those critical areas, where the 15" Tannoy driver´s mass has to cope with 1000 hz plus. In the bass region, both Tannoy types are using the same driver, you have the choice of traditional bass reflex (Canterbury) with big tone but slow movement. Or back loaded horn (Westminster) with old school coloration and some time smear. I have big respect for Tannoy speakers, but in my personal view, the Jubilee is the much more modern "approach to the original sound" (like Peter Walker, Quad, claimed once). It is not only the better transparence the Jubilee offers, it is the way how they can create a soundfield with the chance to listen to a 3D experience WITHOUT the trade in of a smeared sound like a Bose 901 delivers at least to my ears. And this is possible in medium sized rooms regarding the ability of constant directivity of the Jubs over the whole freq spectrum. But I really can share the enthusiasm anyone will have when listening to and owning Tannoy speakers. As well as Klipsch Tannoy coax belong to the few ones which can touch the soul and the heart.

Travis, that all looks very fantastic. Thanks for sharing the pictures. It is interesting to see and it also makes me happy how much potential the Jubs have to offer for personal optical refinings. If you see the whole spread of realisations, if as "industrial looking tool" when keeping them raw and black, which is cool in it´s own way, or as highly revised and very seriously high grade looking speakers with amazing results as realized through MikeTN´s version, or in the way to get the bass bin raw and unpainted as you did, which I like personally also very much. It adds a kind of warmth to the Jubs presentation at least in a living room where it might have to share your other needs or other peoples needs. And it reminds me on my LaScalas optical presentation (birch raw). The idea to paint the K402 with high grade automotive laq is so cool, I am among others very nosy to see your approach after finishing the paint shop, fitting to your personal taste and environment. Travis, do you mean this German company? http://www.acapella.de/img/Sphaeron.jpg

Hey Mike An awesome looking result after all your hard planning and work. It´s worth every hour you have invested into this project. Mike, thanks for sharing this so nice pictures. Next I will do, to have at least a point to start with, is ordering the Klipsch logos and I will put them the same way as you did on the K402. Regards, Heinz

Was it that painfully obvious? No I just guess, it looks very very real. I was shocked for a moment.

looks like an extraordinary tasteful approach. If you were a client of mine I would try to find my most personal possible political correct choice of words to let you feel, that there are prospects of further attempts for a relatively more complete fulfillment. Take your time (just jesting) first work using fotoshop?

Can you show a picture?

I am a layman and just wondering why i.e. Kimber shows to use their PBJ line cable (RCA) the other way round. "quasi symmetric". At least the arrows on the cables are in that way. It has three strands. Just two of them are connected at the source side (upstream if I understand Mike in the right way). The third strand is connected only at the end of the receiving item to make the shield, together with "minus". May be it is more effective or safer to take the ground for shielding from the receiving gear (only)? I use a pair of it since 12 years, soundwise it´s very ok the way Kimber recommends it. Don: There have been reports that it takes listening to Egyptian bongo music for a few weeks to break these cables in with this device attached, but when fully broken in you will never want to go back to your old cables. And what is probably the highest benefit, you will never listen to anything else than Egyptian bongo music. Or perhaps it opens your mind also for whale love songs.

I have no experiences with KHorns but with LaScalas. My ones also have ALK Xover. As a 300B SET which I use in another chain has sufficient power on the paper, I prefer the sound of my Mcintosh MC275 MK4 driving the LaScalas. Some speakers seem to like more stabil kind of power regardless of their sensitivity. (stabil in the sense that impedance interaction shoud be avoided). I prefer the MC275 MK4 also in comparison to a MC2102 which I also have used for more than 4 years. The MC2102 has more power, bass and stage. But it lacks the finer inner detail which takes the music closer to the heart. And 75 Watts pc are plenty for a Khorn. And, a note worth, a friend has a MC275CE back from the nineties. For me it sounds significantly worse against the new production. Another very good sounding pair of amps which I have bought 18 years ago and restored are Quad II monos, 15W KT66 in combination with the LaScalas. At the end of the day the MC275 ist the best allrounder soundwise I know. I would avoid biamping if possible because there is allways the risk that homogeneity and timing could suffer. Another story is, if you have to go biamping. My Jubilles are now driven using the 300B to feed the mid/high K402. They sound very good, because they have not to deal with coils and capacitors in the path. The DSP is in front of the amp. Of course I do not have such a broad experience and of course all of what I am saying here is my very subjective point of view.

Richard, I play also a little bit e-guitar (but bedroom, not closet). So I have had my bad experience in damaging hifi speakers by playing guitar directly into a receiver when I was young. Therefore and in addition to what Speakerfritz says: "but with out a compressor or limiter...brace yourself for an ear shattering experience" I urgently recommend the use of a compressor because not only the level must be adjusted but also the attack. Otherwise you could be the first one who has damaged his nice Jubs. Here is just an example for a compressor: http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/AMT-Electronics-Slap-Bass-Compressor-Effect-Pedal?sku=159903 The speakers inside guitar- or bass amps allow much more cone travel. And they are designed to have a nice point to break off. This delivers a controlled mechanical distortion which gives a nice mix together with some tube overdrive. Hifi speaker and even drivers in horn loaded cabinetts do not allow to cope such a kind of energy, regardless they can reproduce recorded music very loud.

Thanks all of you for your participation and positive feedback. Now after having spent time for intensive listening I would like to point out that due to the new crossover even classical music with strings is very much more a pleasure to listen to. Therefore the La Scala is becoming more an allrounder than it was ever before. I am very confident with the sound even if I am aware about limitations (i.e. low bass performance, squaker, driver etc) . This does mean that a future project is not urgently necessary for me to enjoy the music. A new project would be more an adventure and the challenge to take part on innovations and developments as dicussed on this excellent forum. I am following the new posts with a lot of interest, particularly about planning to build new type of bass bin combined with trachorns. At this moment I don´t need to "upgrade" to the vintage corner horn as it shows other limitations in comparison where the La Scala benefits (i.e. upper bass section). All in all it is currently a lot going on here, and may be after a year or so some of you have first experiences with new styles of horn designs. Heinz

Final set up in our living room (My wife points out that it sometimes seems to be more a studio than a living room...) Thank you all for help and advice. In particular I would like to thank AL K for this very great sounding universal network. This LS will be keeped in original condition. But I will go on to look for a future project concerning Altec 511b or ALK trachorns combined with some more modern tweeter design and a corner horn. Heinz

New Klipsch logos. They kindly sent them 5 years ago, because one of the originals was missing.

wiring of mids and tweeter

network connections with narrowed spade terminates

mounting K33 with Kimber cable (one piece straight to the network)

K33 after treatment (of course I took the chance to do it)

K33 with gaps (again)

refinished cabinets, after memoving old and ugly dark red colour from the sides and top.

A signature found under the position of the old cross over

I would agree so far as the lowest frequencies to reach are about a little less than 60 hz. And it is horn loaded technology. Probably is the need of a really sealed driver more important with designs like a BBC LS3/5 mini monitor, also in terms of there needed air suspension. But nevertheless I will close the gaps a little bit. Heinz