ClaudeJ1

This is the internet age, I know two people with jet engines in their cars, no matter what it is, yes they can be serious. I am looking forward to the testing and don't see whats to complain about. Well, I suppose that if someone were serious, they could do reverse mold, or a laser scan, but there are subtle waves/bumps in the horn that would make replication a bit tricky. At that point, why not simply buy a pair.

You can't be serious.

Grey Poupon (in honor of direct radiator "audiophiles"). I, for one respect the fact that you are sharing here as an individual and not a dealer. I'm sure if those biases were real instead of pereceived by a few people here, you would say so.

This is a well documented effect. If PWK said this, I believe that he wasn't telling the whole truth on the perceived effect of delays. See the top of <a href="http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys406/Lecture_Notes/P406POM_Lecture_Notes/P406POM_Lect10_Part2.pdf">page 4 of this article</a>. </p><p>Chris </p> The dates for the questions were 1977 for Bob and 1985 for PWK. The paper you cite was published in 2002, the year PWK passed on and improved the IM distortion of Heaven's musicians.

When I asked Bob Moers, former Klipsch President, and PWK himself, about 8 years later, they both said that 2 milliseconds was inaudible on speech and music with loudspeakers, but it would be detected with headphones and clicks. My question would be.............which speakers? and Were they time aligned? In what room?

This sure makes a good argument for Danley's Synergy horns, which can do square waves from 250-2,500 Hz.

Yes, it's a very RUGGED driver, but it's limited by mass to about 4K on the top end, so you MUST go with 3-way.........although my 1133's go down to 300 Hz to 5Khz. and I must go 3-way with them (the K1132's are designed for two way with shelving EQ 500 to 16K). I still think titanium or aluminum sound better by way of transient response (lower mass) than the Phenolic drivers like the JBL 2482..............of course, Beryllium beats them all, but again, you are always trading off the low end for the high end.

Yes, it's a very RUGGED driver, but it's limited by mass to about 4K on the top end, so you MUST go with 3-way.........although my 1133's go down to 300 Hz to 5Khz. and I must go 3-way with them (the K1132's are designed for two way with shelving EQ 500 to 16K). I still think titanium or aluminum sound better by way of transient response (lower mass) than the Phenolic drivers like the JBL 2482..............of course, Beryllium beats them all, but again, you are always trading off the low end for the high end.

I'm hoping you will go with the active Xover route instead of passive. Even without official "Roy" settings on your 402's, you can spend less than $300 on a Behringer DCX 2496 and twiddle the knobs to your heart's content. This will allow you to create custom setting for every driver and save them via the front panel. You can just use the same methods we used while I was at your place as long as you have a precise and NON Movable mike location at your listening spot. Set it up in the left corner, EQ the bass reasonably flat from 50-500with a Linkwitz-Riley 24 or 48 db/octave slope (48 preferred). Save those setting and don't touch them. Now the only variable will be the the drivers on the exact same horn, which whose face is in the same plane as the front of the Golden Jube. By superimposing the K402 cruves, you should be able to EQ each driver pretty close to each other. Now any audible REMAINING sonic differnces can be attributed to the drivers themselves and their resonances, etc. While I really liked your Martinelli horn, with 800 Hz. passive network on the Golden Jube, I still think the TAD/402 will win because: 1) Berrylium will give your the bes "micro detail" at all frequencies, 2) the K402 has superior frequency response and pattern control down to about 580 Hz. 3) Even though you wont be using it, the K402 works down to 300 Hz. and below with drivers that work in the lower range. 4) Last but not least, you will be taking the 500-800 Hz. band out of the Golden Jube and into the K402 horn, which will give your SUPERIOR transient response and lower distortion.

Excellent response, Don.. I'm in full agreement with your succinct definitions here. Bravo.

Selected quotes from Paul W. Klipsch, Dope From Hope, Vol. 15, No. 6, June 1976: More and more people are calling and writing us about a three speaker array. We recommend our BELLE KLIPSCH or LA SCALA as a center speaker between our KLIPSCHORN, LA SCALA or BELLE KLIPSCH as flanking speakers. We do not like to use our HERESY or CORNWALL speakers between totally horn-loaded speakers. . . . . . Our HERESY exhibits lower distortion than any other speaker of its size and price. But it is still not an all-horn system. Having a direct-radiator bass unit, its distortion in the bass range is inevitably higher than that of our horn systems, and the cruel fact remains that the speaker system with the highest distortion determines the distortion level of the entire stereo array. Thus, we recommend an all-horn system, like our BELLE KLIPSCH or LA SCALA for use as a center speaker between flanking all-horn speakers. . . . . . The center speaker reproduces center stage events, and the soloist, if there is one. It should be at least as good and clean as the flanking speakers. KEEP IT CLEAN!

With a mini box, You can just use the pre-outs, since the R and L are pass through. You just gain a mono R plus Left signal. so you could do anything you want with two Mini DSP's and just have an unused fourth channel. its' AtoAtoDtoA, eh?

The PWK mini box is very cheap to make with parts available from any Radio Shack.

You WILL benefit from a center channel even if the spacing is only 13 feet.................but only if you sit CLOSER to the front wall. By way of perspective, this will broaden the sound stage for you. It will make adjustment of the center level more critical than in a larger room, but will give you similar benefits. This is not a theory, but I have done it in differernt rooms from 6 different homes in over 30 years, starting with an expando living room in a mobile home, when I was just a kid (hey I FINANCED my Khorns, which were my very first Klipsch speakers). This is why I never "upgraded" for 30 years. LOL. I started at the top and stayed there. I think that a rule of thumb is something like 20-30 feet separation between the Khorns before the "hole in the center" phenomenon usually occurs. If the "hole in the center" occurs at less than this separation distance, then I'd recommend room treatments. The following excerpt is from PWK's article, "Stereophonic Sound With Two Tracks, Three Channels By Means of a Phantom Circuit (2PH3)*", JAES, April 1958, Vol. 6, No. 2: SPEAKER PLACEMENT "When this writer started experimenting with 2-channel stereo, experience at various demonstrations was unsatisfactory; insufficient separation or sharply focused point source effects marred the demonstration. Accordingly the approach was made using wide microphone separation and corner placement of speakers. It was found that, usually, placement of corner speakers against the long wall of a room was better than against a short wall. Thus in a living room 20 by 30 feet, the performance was better with the speakers 30 feet apart than 20 feet. But the wider the separation the more apt there is to be a 'hole' in the middle and this has been the subject of occasional adverse criticism. The phantom center channel has not merely filled this hole; it has satisfied the ear to the extent that there appears to be a solid curtain of sound rather than a group of point sources..." Chris

Well I purchased and read all the "Klipsch" papers, including the "Dope From Hope" newletters. I built the resistor box, but added a center channel potentiometer to the circuit to give me variable attenuation there. I had two oiled birch Khorns (style C without the risers) and a LaScala Center for over 30 years!! I have also built false corners according to PWK's drawings when my homes needed them. Back in 1985, I spent a day with PWK and he brought me to his home in Hope. He had a huge living room, and he used TWO false corners and the same resistor box he wrote about. In other words, PWK actually did what he wrote and wrote what he did. His Khorns were standard Walnut, as was his center Belle. He played me his amazing recordings from his huge collection of reel to reel tapes, all of which, he recorded himself. So YES, absolutely it's worth it if you can space your speakers 18 to 25 feet apart. As a "setup recording" I used to use "Mediterranean Sundance" from Al DiMeola's "Elegant Gypsy" album. It features Al on steel Ovation guitar on one channel and Paco Di Lucia on Nylon String guitar in the other channel. It has a solid Right and Left channel image, so it's useful for setting the center channel attenuation, which is usually from -3 to -6 db from the flanks. I use sit and listen in my sweet spot, and just turn down the center until the images moved beween Left-Center and Right-Center respectively. It's pretty cool to be able to adjust the positions of the guitarists this way, and serves to make ALL recording image better. It does spread out the sweet spot quite a bit in a room. It works just like the old papers say it does. I only gave it up because I live in a smaller space and went for 5.1 and 2.1 from the same setup, which is a good compromise. Otherwise, for Stereo, it's the cat's meow. It's rarity has to do with it's lack of convention and expense, but obviously you are headed in the right direction!! You will really enjoy it, so go for it.

BTW, B&C makes excellent products. I have their DE-10/ME10's........even better their DE-250, but at more $$. You generally get what you pay for.

Most "bullet" twetters are beamy. Restricted low end, so more of a super tweeter so for only a 3-way, usually with a mid horn. Although you could pad it down quite a bit and use with a really small mid woofer...................about 6-8"

Yes, and it should blow away the K600 too. I am pleased you chimed in, and you drawing looks great. My interest in this project was to see if the Eliptrac would integrate nicely into an original Cornwall, and it's obvious that it's simple installation. Dave

Got mine, woudn't play on my Panasonic Blue Ray, but played on my PC workstation with the 2.1 Klipsch Speakers. Took to a friend's house with Open Baffle 2-ch and 3 sets of SPUD subwoofs. His OPPO will play anything. The organ sounds great, but the Jazz recordings are simply amazing on that system. One of the most "real musicians in the room" sound ever!! The interview with PWK obviously is with non-audio people, but pretty cool nonetheless.

That's ain't Heresy, it's Blasphemy!! LOL. Yes, get 9 midrange speakers, 8 of them facing the wrong way, give the box a low tune and EQ the crap out of them. Then have the sales people brag about how much power they can absorb, with their 1 ohm voice coils in series. Then spend 50% of the profits on more marketing for Air Travelers about headphones that don't work.

You can do 2-way with horns but you gotta PEQ the heck out of it, which is no problem with active Xovers.

The reason for pointing this thread out is speakers, whether 1-way, 2-way, 3-way, etc., can all sound very good if they are well designed. That's it. Bill On my short list of "must hears" is the Synergy Horns from Danley Sound labs. Passing a square wave over a decade in a critial range is pretty amazing for a 3-way that sounds like a 1 way. Plus, Danley is the king of subs. Meawhile, I will "suffer" with my 3-way with sub and a mix of active and passive Xover, 1st and 4th order, where it measures AND sounds best. Lots of microdetail, dymanics, ridiculously low distortion, all with Milliwatts of power. BTW, horns are inherently narrow band devices so the cohesiveness of the Synergy horn is a new phenomenon in horn design. So if the "midrange is where we live" then the K402 is the best horn I've ever heard and/or owned.

Well Looks to me like you should wait to change your name to "Finally got my Jubilees" (or maybe Khorns). Thanks for sharing your story.

I think he should. But he didn't say FinallygotmyCornwalls, so who knows...........

We were told that the increased thickness of the side walls, to 1", also made a big difference. Something to do with side wall resonance. I'm sure it's a measurable difference. I have braces in my FH-1s, which makes it a better cab than the old La Scalas and at least as good as the LS II, but UGLY. That being said, I still don't think it makes 7 db's worth of difference like the Xover network does. The sensitivity is less, but the efficiency is the same, with a much smoother response. I think the biggest improvements Klipsch has made in the Khorn and LaScala is in the networks. For the CW and H, it's the networks and the drivers (titanium Diaphragms).