Zen Traveler

Russ, Thanks for the response. I don't hear any "bad" reflection with my set up on the shelves and I am curious if it will improve my sound. It gives me something to think about. By the way I snuck a peak at your gear--Very nice. I have the KLF-20-C7 combo in my workout room powered by a Denon 3803 and love the way they sound. If I can find a pair of Klf-30's in the DFW area, I may have to snag them.

Russ, That's an interesting bracket and definitely looks like one solution. I didn't see how much they cost. How does it improve sound (verses a $5 shelf/rubber feet configuration)? With the RB-75 being front ported does it make any difference how far away from the wall it is (2 inches vs 12 inches)? Now you got me thinking

90 inch screen! Nice;-) I have my RB-75's (used as rears in this instance) on a sturdy shelf. The front of the speaker is flush with the front edge of the shelf, with the rubber dealys attached. I don't hear any vibration, but I would be curious to see what other people more knowledgeable would say.

I would go to your dealer and ask them to hear the RC-7 and the RC-35 with the RB-75's and then make your decision.

I ditto ALMOST everything that has been said here, including Welcome to the forum. Colterphoto hit the nail on the head about Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 verses "Dolby surround." Where I disagree is that the RS-7 are "nasty sprayers," in all situations. Insofar as your surrounds ARE concerned: Given what colterphoto said about discrete sound -- the RB-75's would work well. I use the RF-3 towers as surrounds and raise them 10 inches off the ground (so the tweeters are at ear level along with the RF-7's) and like them better than the RB-75's. I may be alone in this opinion and realize that space may be an issue, but a better bang for the buck IMO, if you can swing it. {Edit: My bad--evidently RF-3's are discontinued--Find a pair used or swing a deal on the RF-5's would be my next choice}

Welcome to the forum. The RC-7 is the one that best matches the RB-75's as a center and would be the one to get if at all possible. The RC-35 would work if you are on a budget, but alot of information comes out of the center channel. IMO, The others will work quite nicely as surrounds.

I enjoy discussions such as this and I feel I learn alot from this forum. MrMcGoo writes: "The type of high resolution music that folks listen to determines the amount of information in the surrounds. I listen to alot of classical music, so there is very little information in the surrounds. The rock that I have generally puts crowd sounds in the rear. There is very little music in the surrounds IMO because most folks find it very annoying." I agree with what type of music a person listens to may make a difference on what comes out of the surrounds--I only have 2 classical SACD's "Tchaikovsky 1812," and 'Orgg Carmina Burana," (although both have considerable surround tracks ). Insofar as Rock is concerned I will agree that the majority of concert video's put the crowd noise in the surrounds (some sound more obnoxious than others), but the non concert Rock DVD-A and SACD's put backing vocals, instruments, and sound effects that add to the experience IMHO. We are also in complete agreement when it comes to RF-7's all of the way around. I have tried RS-7's, RB-75's and RF-3's as side surrounds and short of the RF-7's, the RF-3's are my favorite and what I use. BobbyT has a pair of RF-3's that he can use when he moves. I understand that SACD recommends the exact speakers all of the way around and may be where he got the 5 RB-75 idea--That being said, I still will argue that replacing 2 of them with RF-7's would sound better than 5 RB-75's. He already has the RF-3's (can't use them now) and would be a better replacement for 2 more of the RB-75's. Insofar as the RC-7 is concerned it is an excellent center channel with 2, 8 inch woofers--seems like a logical choice to use as a center channel. Now we have come full circle to my original response to his dilemma. By the way MrMcGoo--VERY nice equipment

It sounds like you have alot of good suggestions and if you have until August who knows what could happen;-) I have 2 last thoughts for you: 1) I own both the RB-75's and the RF-7's. My wife and I just watched "Troy," I can't imagine taking away the RF-7's and replacing them with RB-75's for front speakers! I agree with Colterphoto's first post. and 2) I watch/listen to 70% music/Concert videos-30% movies. Most DVD concert video's essential sound comes out of your front 3 speakers--I would not sacrifice on them for either movies or music. But when it comes to High Resolution Audio and Mr.McGoo writes: "The RS-7s and RS-3IIs were for movies, but work well for multichannel music. There isn't that much information in the surround speakers in most SACDs and DVD-As. " True that the RS-7's and RS-3's were made for movies and wouldn't be "bad" for music, but on the 40 DVD-A/SACD's that I own there is alot of information in the surround speakers (unless it is a 2 channel SACD). A Direct radiating speaker would be more beneficial, and in fact is what SACD/DVD-A recommends for surrounds.

FYI. If you are worried about enough power going to the RF-7's--I saw a link on the AVS forum where you could BI-amp the Denon AVR-3805's rear surrounds (in Zone-2 mode) to the front channels in a 5.1 configuration. I wonder if you could do that with either of the receivers you are looking at. Just another idea...

It sounds like you are close to having your mind made up. If you are leaning toward 5 bookshelf speakers instead the RF-7/C-7, I would take into consideration what your upgrade plans will be when you move. Given your 2 choices I would agree with Marksdad. I understand where MrMcGoo is coming from insofar as "wattage" or WPC is concerned. I don't know that I would choose the Pioneer over the B&K. It helps to look at the Power Consumption number in relation to the WPC. I don't have the specs of the Pioneer or B&K in front of me, but I would guess the B&K comes out far better in that regard. When you move in a year you can use your B&K 507 as a pre-amp and then buy your power amplifiers at that time (if you feel the need). I do not doubt that many folks are impressed when they make that upgrade--I am sure I would be one of them. It boils down to cost verses enjoyment factor. My Denon is THX ultra 2 certified and I paid around $1700 for it 2 years ago. It's power consumption is 10.5A into 125 WPC. It allowed me to upgrade my speaker purchase and I don't regret that decision one bit.

BobbyT, I gather from your original post, you have a budget you are trying to stay around. I highly recommend sticking to it. It's easy to overspend in this hobby. Mr. McGoo and I agree on getting the RF-7. Where we disagree is having to have such a high powered amp to drive the RF-7's. In a large room or if money is no object I would consider getting 200+ wpc. I am sure they would benefit, but at what cost? I venture to say most people that own RF-7's run them on considerably less and are quite happy. I didn't know that the Pioneer passed SACD through the ILink and that would be a definite consideration. The Denon passes DVD-A through the Denon Link (Denon AVR-3805 & 5803). But not SACD. I have the Denon AVR-4802R/DVD 3910 combo going through the 6 analog cables and Rebook CD's, DVD-A and SACD's sound phenomenal and I experience no jitter. I also agree with Steelerfan on the RSW-15, but I haven't heard an SVS ultra. Alot to think about, but if you are moving in a year, I would get the speakers you want now and decide what amp (or separates) you want to upgrade to then. Just a 2nd opinion

Don't let it scare you unless you have one of those displays that experience macroblocking. I don't know if the Pioneer would be any better (I didn't read through that thread), but I am happy with mine. I just listened to my R.E.M greatest hits DVD-A and I don't think it could get any better. Somewhere on that thread is a link to Kris Dearing's "Benchmark" test of both DVD's,--who knows if it was rigged (I am always skeptical), but they both were comparable. The real question, " is either one $650 better than the Denon DVD-2910?" Maybe.

I thought I recognized that Volvo!

To add insult to injury, I heard she was also over her minutes on her cell phone plan

BobbyT writes: "I don't have room for rear towers." That's sort of what I thought when I was looking at your choices. I use the RB-75's as mains in my bedroom and I like them alot. I also use them as rear surrounds in my main theater, but it is slightly "overkill." I would go the RF-7 route; save money on the receiver and buy a Denon (or not and get the B&K- excellent receiver) and get RB-75's as surrounds. When you move, pull out the RF-3's and put the RS-3's on top of them (I raised mine 10 inches so all of my tweeters were at ear level) and use the RB-75's as rear surrounds in a 9.1 set up. With all that being said, I don't know if the RB-75's are THAT much better than the "35's" particularly in a surround situation--but since you listen to so much music, I would consider it especially if you can audition them side by side. I also have a small room (pics on the "Show me your theater," thread on page 20) but a high ceiling that helps with my acoustics. Here is a thread at the AVS forum, which has been helpful to me insofar as the DVD-3910: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447795 They also have one on the Pioneer you are looking at. Good luck with the upgrade.

What a dilemma! I don't think you could go wrong with 1 or 2. If you listen to 85% music and have the space let me give you a 3rd alternative: I would go with 2 RF-7's/RC-7 and consider additional towers for your surround speakers. I have 2 RF-3's with my RS-7's sitting right on top of them (use to be RS-3's before upgrade cycle). I use the towers for Music and Both for movies. I have a Denon 4802R which allows me to use 2 sets of side surrounds; independently or together. The B &K is a good unit, but I can't imagine it being much better than a comparable Denon (4802-R or the 3805) which you may be able to pick up at a better price which in turn can help pay for better surrounds. I didn't necessarily like the way the Pioneers sounded with Klipsch in Ultimate Electronics' Hard Rock Cafe rooms (which I visited many), but I am sure others will disagree. The Denon 2910 is a good unit and the bass management allows you to boost the bass 10 dB. The Denon 3910 is a great unit and although I have both, I haven't A/B'd the two to see if the bass mgt. and DAC's are that much better in the latter. I don't notice anything missing when I listen to DVD-A/SACD on the 2910.YMMV {Edit: I tried the RB-75's instead of the RF-3 towers that I already owned as side surrounds, but I didn't like them as much. Keep in mind room acoustics make a difference and others (and yourself) may have different results. The RB-75's are good speakers and great bookshelves IMHO} It sounds like the fun is about to begin.

I also have a decent selection of concert and music DVD's. I totally agree that "Growing up live," was extremely well done. When I saw those guys in orange wearing the Teka headlamps it brought a smile to my face. Prior to watching the video I had given friends and family ones for Christmas because I had gotten so much use out of mine. They are excellent for getting behind the component cabinet and taking on trips to use in strange sleeping environments (i.e., camping, hotel rooms, friends houses, etc.) where you may not know where the light switch is. His first concert DVD, "Secret World, Live" was also a good sounding concert with a different feel to it. Picture quality wasn't as good as "Growing...," (I didn't realize this as much until the new one came out) but I thought the renditions of the songs "Secret World" and "Steam," were better than the latter concert. There was also several songs that I liked that weren't on the 2nd one including, "Come talk to me," Kiss that Frog," and "Shaking the Tree," that made me start listening to him again.

I almost posted this on a thread I saw yesterday regarding how important a center channel recording was on concerts (at least that was what I thought it was about). Has anyone noticed that the Roger Waters, "In the Flesh-Live," Doesn't have a center channel? I love this DVD. I must have listened to it 50 times, before I walked in front of the TV and thought my RC-7 wasn't working. I called up a friend who had the DVD and he was surprised as well. His first comment was, "It works on mine," until he actually checked it out. FYI. If any of you have this DVD and there is a Center channel recorded please post.

I wasn't a BIG Peter Gabriel fan growing up, however I appreciated his genius. His concert DVD's both are real good and are a must have for Concert DVD lovers. This greatest hits compilation, "Peter Gabriel-Play, the Videos," is the best one I have heard of any artist. The DTS 96/24 sound quality is phenomenal (unless you own the Denon 3805-appears to be a gremlin problem between player and dvd). The video quality is also good. Watching this DVD, start to finish brought out every emotion. You can't help but smile at songs like "Sledgehammer" and "Steam." I couldn't believe how profound the "Biko" video was. I found myself wiping a tear from my eye. There are maybe 4 songs out of 24 that were less than impressive.

Welcome to the Forum. The RC-3 is the center match for the RF-3's. The RS-3 surrounds were the ones that went with that setup. Mine sounded fantastic. You may be able to find a used pair by someone on this board or a pair on e-bay. I think either the "25 or 35" series would be a good match as a 2nd choice. I have the RS-3's matched with RB-75's in my bedroom and they blend well. Depending on your room, you may like a direct radiating book shelf speaker for surrounds (If you have the space another set of RF-3 would be a good choice). That being said, if you don't think your front and center matches, you may have another problem. I don't know anything about your Harmon/Kardon AVR 320. Someone who has experience with that receiver or brand may be able to guide you on if that could be the culprit on the mismatched sound. IMHO the only real upgrade to justify the cost and would fix your mismatched problem speakerwise, would be to up grade your Fronts to RF-7's (I don't thin the RF-5's would justify the cost) and your center to the RC-7. Then again if you have the space use your RF-3's as side surrounds and your RC-3 as a Rear center speaker in a 6.1 set up. Unfortunately (I don't know anything about HK) then you may need to spend another $600-1000 on a receiver.

pyroponic writes: "So having the RS-35's in the surround and RB-75's in the rear is the way to go? I don't know how much sound is played through the rears (or if many movies are encoded in 7.1 for that matter), I didn't want such nice speaker to go to waste =)" That's why my response to your initial question was this: "I think "Big improvement," is subjective and depends on the size of your room and particular DVD. I upgraded to 9.2 (actually still 6.1 discrete depending on the media) & I am glad I did, but I can't say it justifies the cost. It wouldn't be something I would put on credit;-)" Frzninvt is right that in a 7.1 set up you can make 5.1 material sound great--But "big improvement," on that material...Well, that's where we differ. There isn't all that many DTS-EX and DD-EX Dvd's out there as you noted. The ones that are, I have--Along with the original 5.1 version that I bought prior. As an example I have all of the LOTR--When I first watched the 5.1 versions I thought they were GREAT. Quite an impact. Several months later when the "Extended versions," in DTS-ES came out, I enjoyed watching them again. Did I hear discrete sound coming out of my rear channels? Yes, several times throughout the movie. Was there a major difference in the movies impact on me verses the original? No. All of that being said, having 2 more speakers is a benefit if you can justify the cost. After writing all of this, and considering your original post, I stand by my first thought--It depends on your Theater room, where and how to position the speakers. I just posted the idea about the Klipsch THX speaker set up, because it IS what both companies recommend for a 7.1 theater set up (for movies). Now for my 2nd thought--Why didn't you go for the RF-7's for the front in the first place? I will come full circle to your conclusion that putting RB-75's in the rear might be a waste of speaker--Yes. That being said, if you decide to get DVD-Audio/SACD they could be very beneficial back there. My situation with "rear surround speakers is written in the above post. My theater is displayed on page 20 of "Show me your Theater," Thread. {Edit: What I didn't say in the above post was that when I exchanged the RS-7's with the RB-75's as rear surrounds, it wasn't dramatically noticeable on most material} Good luck on your endeavor.

Whew!!! I am glad this "stuff" doesn't keep me up at night anymore. Ultimate Electronics did a tremendous expansion right before September 11th happened. If it wasn't for that event I think it had a chance to be a strong competitor for the mid to upper range of the Home Theater market and compete with Bestbuy (and Tweeter in my area) for those customers. That being said I have 2 market analysis opinions: 1) There was a reason Mark Waddle bought all of those shares of stock. When they close those stores and emerge out of bankruptcy they have a chance to be a leaner more competitive market force. 2) I think with Klipsch reputation, they could put KLIPSCH HOME THEATER STORES in several large markets (DFW being one of them with so many of us Arkansas boys here:). They would only need approximately 2500-3500 square feet of retail space and have 3 to 4 theater rooms displaying their different lines (including Heritage), with different price points. Instead of having run of the mill sales people, they pay minimum wage--They could have Owner/Managers and the like talking with customers. Just my 2 cents.

pyroponic writes "...moving the RB-75's to the surround, and moving the RS-35's to the rear. . " Frzninvt writes in another thread: I cannot understand why some people insist on the WDST sound sprayers in the back with speakers like RF-7's in the front - Yuk! Just in case my point was missed, Frzninvt and I are in agreement on this issue. That is why I wrote "Insofar as your speakers are concerned, look at the Klipsch THX speakers. Their front, center, mains, & rears are monopole, direct firing speakers. The ones they recommend for Side surround are "wide dispersion surround technology," speakers, like your RS-35's. "

Denon receivers allow you to use 2 side surrounds. I was using Both RF -3 Towers (A) and RF-3 WDST ( as Side surrounds, before I put RS-7's as Rear surrounds. Now I am using RS-7's ( along with the RF-3's as Side surrounds, and RB-75's as Rear Surrounds. That may explain it better.

toddvj, You win some you lose some...The writing was on the wall (and in my letters) at ULTE, but I was still hopeful because I liked the concept of high-end discount Home Theater stores. Let's just say I got out before it hit $.65.