soundog

Thanks Gil. You made me aware of the email bad habit of throwing out all the rules of writing we learned in school. Now if we can only get lawyers to write legal documents that everyone can understand. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems This message has been edited by soundog on 03-01-2002 at 09:23 PM

Rag- I wonder if the same applies to interconnects? What about bi-wiring speakers? Comparison studies seem to be limited to regular Monster cable vs. zip cord? What about the more exotic wires. Would like to see more of these type of studies including a greater range of wire products. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

Ed- Wow! Think about it a 27' wall of sound - talk about a large soundstage! Would HAVE to have a center speaker. Were would one sit ideally relative to this set-up? ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

The RF 5s seem to be down about 3 db at 34hz ... if you look below or above for the Klipschorn/sub post you'll see that Ray Garrison is suggesting I add subs to my Khorns but set them low which would have to be at 40 hZ. You might want to try this with the RSW15 and your two RF5 using line level inputs, then you could run the LFEs (which would also contain bass material from your surrounds and center set to small) through the KSW12s. From what I've read (if I understand it correctly) subs with more higher order harmonic distortion really shake up things better then the more musical subs. The KSWs have this sort of reputation. I prefer my KSW 15 to the more musical LH10s on explosions for instance but like the LH10s better for music. Although they do fine on explosions too as I'm sure the RSWs do - it's just that the KSWs seem to rattle the room better. The placement scenario you suggest would be a logical starting point but remember variations in placement of subs can make a big difference. Multiple subs especially with DVD LFE can be very effective. Let us know the results of your experiments. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems This message has been edited by soundog on 03-01-2002 at 06:57 PM

The way I read the chart is the Klipschorn is at 100db down 4db from its average 104 output at 35Hz, down an additional 2db at 32 and another 2 db at 30. I tried all my subs with the Klipschorns - the LH10 were the best as they are with your LaScalas and I agree that is better for modern R&R. Maybe I didn't set them low enough, however, I cann't remember, so now I'll have to haul those little hernia packs downstairs. They can be set to low pass of 40 which should intersect with the falling Khorn curve quite nicely. I'll let you know the outcome. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

What are you using as mains? The RSW15 is far more musical than the KSW12s. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

I just can not understand why you need more bass from a pair of Klipschorns. If they are sealed to the wall tightly and if your amplification is solid you should get plenty of real musical bass. Unless your listening to pipe organs there is not much musical content below 35Hz. If you want LFE from DVDs that is a different matter. But for music a sub just seems to detract from the high speed dynamics of a horn loaded basss driver. I am not familiar with your receiver but you might do better with higher quality amplification. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

The lowpass is the point at which the upper frequencies are rolled off. If your receiver/preamp allows you to select a crossover point this can be set at the highest level as the receiver will do the work. If you can not set the crossover point via the receiver then experiment with settings. Since your speakers go down to 45 (chorus) and 34Hz try somewhere around 45 on the sub to start. The phase control is used to alter/reverse the phase if the sub is out of phase with the rest of your speakers. Try it in various setings ...in both instances the seting that sounds best to you is what's best. Also try different room placements as that can have a large effect also. BTW that is a nice sub that has THX certification, I beleive. It is musical but can also produce some powerful LFEs. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems This message has been edited by soundog on 03-01-2002 at 02:44 PM

I have always found Klipsch customer service to be very helpful and more than fair. They really stand behind their products! This BB is a very visable example of how Klipsch will go to any length to serve their customers. Look at all the help they give those of us with old Klipsch speakers that we bought used and they are still there for us, even though they didn't make a cent off of us. I think they are far sighted enough to realise that many of us, as a result, have become enthusiastic Klipsch proponents. That is a very big reason why I have chosen Klipsch subs over some others - because I know from experience that they will stand behind them and help is very available, if I should need it. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

Since crossover points produce gradual rolloffs, if you set all but the mains to small on the Outlaw and then select either a 60 or 80 crossover point, your excellent Hsu sub will take over. Matching crossover points will produce more sonic coherence between speakers (more important at an 80 level than 60). The fortes go down to 32 and, as PWK pointed out, there is very very little musical material below 35, so unless your favorate music is old church pipe organs, your Fortes will produce a much more natural sound by themselves in stereo. If it's R&R punch of the juke-box or car woofer variety you could always quickly change the 1050 setting to small and crank the Hsu. It would not be as natural but it would be dramatic. For DVD and SACD/DVDA 5.1 material the lower frequencies are already augmented via the .1 LFE effects channel. If you plan to simulate surround using DSP modes the redirection of bass of the center and surrounds set to small will insure plenty of bass through the Hsu (and you can always crank it up. IMHO it is better is far better to look for great sound quality first, variety of adjustments second and apperance way last. Most receivers with a lot of gimicks have sacrificed quality to include all these options, many of which are not really needed. The Outlaw acheives quality at a low price by cutting to the essentials and by selling direct. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

There is so much discussion on this board and others on this issue. I would think someone would conduct a scientific blind test as MCIntosh did using a number of the new fancy cables on the market and a good sample of audio enthusiasts who could rate cables on a number of factors. But then who would conduct these tests? Any audio publication would risk the loss of advertisers. I think one of the regional consumer audio clubs would be ideally suited for such a project. Of course, like anything that people don't want to believe (due to a large investment in one position or another), there would probably still be endless debte about the scientific integrity of the tests. But I for one would be real interested in the results. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems This message has been edited by soundog on 03-01-2002 at 07:00 PM

Well that settles it then ... my dts disks sound great through the digital inputs on my Outlaw. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

I certainly fall into the sound quality vs. appearence with my industrial LaScalas and "plain jane" (to some mean spirited people "ugly" Outlaw 1050s). But in the dark I listen to the 1050 and Scalas and say "God forgive them because they don't know what they are talking about" (paraphrasing JC). But I'd defend to death a person's right to choose appearance over substance. In a society where people will pay 10 times the price of a regular tee shirt to have one of the same quality with a designer's name and logo (free advertising!) emblassioned across the front, what do you expect? As a parent of a teen-ager I dislike companies' brain washing teenagers to make $$$. But I tell my son "here's a couple bucks if you want to spend $20. at Old Military for a Tummy Hillbanger go earn the extra money. And he does. As a kid I wore old dirty tee shirts and saved for EICO kits. "What's the matter with kids today?" But then he thinks my systems are "awesome" and "cool" and shows them off to his friends so I'm letting him live. If Bose is engaging in deceptive and dishonest practices they should be prosecuted. But I'm sure Gil will tell you claims like "big sound" are subjective and a matter of opinion and it would be almost impossible to make a case. Some people experience more pleasure from those tiny cubes than we do from big LaScalas. They have as much of a right to buy what they want as we do that. Would anyone want to take that right away from them? After all "Ignorance is Bliss" to some people anyway. Some men prefer empty-headed big-breasted bleach blonds over very bright slender woman who wear glasses and no make-up. Now there's a good debate! Thank God for diversity. The word would be boring without it. "You'll never go broke underestimating the tastes of the American public" "There is a sucker born every minute" P.T. Barnum This is nothing new. Gil - Am I doing better with my paragraphs? ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

Call Outlaw for any questions you have they are VERY helpful. I think it does do 24/96 ....but what supplies a 24/96 digital signal? The Outlaw certainly does DVD video sound but DVD audio and SACD are analog output only aren't they? ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

I know some very nice people who are quite bright and well educated that like the Bose cubes very much. Some get the white ones and paint them to match their walls. They virtually disappear. They can produce a lot of sound for their size and many find them quite pleasent. Not everyone is willing to do the research, spend the money and get tangled in wires nor do they have spouses that think a lot of big speakers and electronic equiptment are beautiful. Some people value ease of operation above everything else. They like to listen to soft music and watch some movies with some dramatic effects. They really don't want the London Symphony in their living room at concert hall levels nor do they want to move their house on it's foundation. Some people actually think we're the ones that "are nuts". ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

The CE775 lists for $399. but I got mine for about $300. which I consider a great buy since the quality is very good IMHO. I read somewhere that they have a romotion now where you get 5 or 6 SACDs with it free. Sure seems like Sony is going all out to make SACDs a sucess. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

The one in the back sure looks like an LH-10 or vica-versa. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

The Advantgarde people use bowls, too made from some sort of plastic material that they claim is more uniform than wood but the Edger salad bowls of yours look great to me. Hope to hear them at the Audiofest. I had trouble comparing speakers at the CES/T.H.E. Expo in Vegas. The Advantgarde's sounded too bright (room acoustics? My fatigue?, the wooden bowls there I just cann't remember hearing. I honestly didn't hear anything I liked better overall than my Klipschorns but I'll try to keep an open mind. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

I use a Dynaco PAS4 tube preamp for CDs and LPs. I feed it to the direct inputs of my Outlaw 1050. I also run two channels of my SACD player through the Dynaco with the rest to the remaining 5.1 direct inputs. For DVDs everything goes through the Outlae via digital coax. This works very well for me. The Outlaw did a very good job by itself but I needed a phono preamp and I wanted the tube sound for the Klipschorns. The Dynaco gave me this and my Perpetual Tech processing devices gave me a good aproximation of LP sound from CDs. SACDs come close to LPs, also. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

He'd need something sturdy and solid like the LaScalas. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Barbara Streisand has 4 Klipschorns. I don't think anyone would deny her perfectionist tendencies. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems This message has been edited by soundog on 02-26-2002 at 10:31 PM

My SONY CE775 SACD changer is a great buy. Takes a little time to "burn in" (something I didn't beleive in until the 775) .... Read posts on Audio Asylum BB ... search in HiRez Forum for a member's review and assorted comments....other cd players are discussed there, too. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/bbs.html ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

Thanks, Ed. my Dad and I made peace before he died, too. I'm convinced it's all one great learning experience. Faith, hope and sharing is where it's at. We're all in this together. Music has inspired me and kept me going. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

Ray's quite a guy and very bright - just read his posts - he has a solid mastery of the intricacies of electronics and audio. I've been up and down a number of times in my life - left home at 18 (my alcoholic father and I didn't get along) to make it in NYC - got very sick in an apartment in Brooklyn without adequate heat and furnished "off the street" - but I did have my EICO & University kits which I bought mowing lawns and brought to NYC via several trips on Greyhound buses and the subway late at night. I worked my way up via night school with government loans while working in a Wall Street Bank. I ended up with a fair amount of money designing advertising & marketing programs for National Distillers and playing the stock market. I had a new three family house in Queens, a lot of stock, a big Chrysler and a beautiful family, only to loose it all to alcoholism. Survived by working as an exterminator, a taxi cab driver, and a doorman at a strip joint, were even though I was still actively alcoholic, I devised a scheme (as only a desperate alcoholic could) to buy what was then Manhattan's most notorious strip joint on Canal Street between little Italy and Chinatown in the 70s. Connected the University speakers and amps to the juke box in the bar. Made a lot of money - had a duplex in the west village - lost it all to cocaine addiction. Crawled back to my parent's house at 35 (humiliation) and went to work for Radio Shack - became a manager of one of the smallest stores and won the Tandy Award by selling Mach One systems (best speaker the shack ever sold - I still have a pair) and was flown to Fort Worth to meet Tandy himself. Returned, went on a blackout binge, money was missing from the store and warrants were issued for my arrest. Crawled into detox, paid off RS with my Tandy stock and went to rehab and then to a halfway house on welfare. Left the halfway house too soon, got a job selling Hi-Fi's at minimum wage, kept relapsing and was so depressed I was considering suicide when I challenged "God" to remove the obsession and compulsion to drink as the 12 step program said He would if I asked. To my shock, it was lifted and I became a true believer. Never-the-less I contracted pneumonia from living in a cold apartment, lost the job for being sick and was again homeless, but another recovering guy let me sleep on his sofa for about 6 months. Got another minimum wage job selling furniture and went back to college via another government loan to become an alcoholism counselor. Got my first job as a counselor in the 80s that paid $7500 a year. Anyway things just kept getting better and better and today I make a good living developing treatment and training programs. So if when Ray gets back on his feet and if he wants his LaScalas back for what I paid for them, I'd be glad to do it. I understand. But I'd be willing to bet he's going to make it big and end up with those Millennium Klipschorns. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

It seems to me that a lot of subs fall into one of two catgories: those that are musical but not as dramatic on DVD LFEs and those that shake the rafters but are not particularily lifelike when it comes to music. I would opt more for the former than the latter but I guess the trick is to decide what you want most out of a sub. There are some that are a good compromise betweeen the two. I like my Klipsch LH10s for music but I hear good things about Rel and the new Klipsch reference subs when it comes to musicality also. HSU subs seem to get rate high in value (good buys). After the novelty wears off explosions and car crashes get a little boring IMHO. But it's only my opimion. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems

I would think the first commandment of audio would be: "It's what sounds best that matters most." The first comandment of video might be "It's what looks best counts". Most audio components are black boxes that disappear in the dark except for a few small lights - they should be heard not seen. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems