BE36

Thanks for volunteering Bob's system. I would love to hear it to answer some of the questions I have. Drive and Fly near Bay City several times year, almost once a month. Bob's would be listing to Biamping in a similiar enviroment and system as compared to the only time I have really heard Biamping - Movie Theaters. Going to some quality movie theaters: 1) Paladium - JBL 2) IMAX - Klipch Bi-amp'd systems have sounded very good especially since they are not starting with is as much data compated to TrueHD etc. But my questions are: What is at fault? Well engineered room treatements and locations? Room Design? Room Size? Biamping? Better Amps? Better Horns? Better Drivers? I would guess all have some effect, How much is due to Biamping? The concerns I have with going active: 1) I, a Mechanical Engineer, do not know what I am doing electrically outside of House Wiring. (Sounds like DX38 with Roy's seting may solve some of this) 2) Would I have to buy another set of VRDs or could I use Adcom' 545s that I already have for the Woofers? 3) Would an ALK ES600 as a Two-Way to the K510 do almost as good? Better? (After the signal has been converted from Digital to Analog what are the issues with the DBx going through another set of D/A - A/D conversions?) (Probably about 6 threads worth of discusions above, 6 more below. I am pretty happy with sound right now with VRDs, Fastrac Sqauwker Horns and JBL 2404 tweeters. The main reason for revising the Cabinet Tops was to accomodate JBL 2405s or JBL 2404s and keep them looking stock for WAF reasons. I wanted K-Horns, my wife liked and actually wanted La Scalas. She is into Art and Mission Furnature and thinks they look really Cool. House is way too small for K-Horns. Looks like a K510 would be a good fit for keeping the stock look and get rid of this box on top!

Is there any advantage to lowering the Squawker? When building new tops could there be an advantage to Lowering the sqauwer - Improve imaging since the Sqauwker Horn would be closer to the Bass Bin? Would there be a similiar advantage to lowering the Tweeter to be as close as possible to the Sqauwker?

I have tried: Gold Lion Reissues NOS Tung Sols KT-88Zs KT-98s Ranked above in order how I liked them. NOS GE 6550 are breaking-in right now. What have I descovered about Output Tubes? That I like Amperex in the 12AU7 slot Mullard in the 12AX7 slot and the ouput tubes only makes a slight difference. Regardless of cost or NOS or New I like the Gold Lion Reissues. Since the Reissues are more reliable and cost a lot less takes any coolness of using vintage tubes away and makes it a no brainer so far. SCs, GEC and GE to try still but I am not anticipating much of a difference. I will try Craig's Penta SC recommendation next. Then I will have enough Output tubes to last the rest of my life. . .

Do you consider $350 cheap for a sub? Velodyne SPL-1000 Faster than my SPL-1500 which des great on movies and is acceptible for Music. I might trade for 1200 when the room is more dedicated to 2 channel. http://cgi.ebay.com/Velodyne-SPL-1000-II-Subwoofer-Speaker-/320553919343?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item4aa280a36f

Digging up an old post here since I will have a similiar geomtry. Are the Tops angled more than the Bass Bins? How many inches are the Bass Bins from the side wall?

Another Great One. Did you put Speaker cloth over the Bass Ports?

What is the starting point for Big Bucks? (How much for a calibrated mike)

Lagger -- Really like that Avitar.

Pioneer Elite BDP-05 does all the Decoding I need, both HD formats. But my room is pretty good without funny corners so Room Calibration is not that important. To me using audyssey is like buying new Volkswagon Bug with all the new wistles and bells, is still a bug. I would rather spend the same amount of money on used Porshe that has been well cared for. The Porsche still goes faster and handles better. My old Mac Intosh still sounds better then my New Pioneer Elite Processor after room calibration. Some one with an odd shapped room my not have the same result.

Couple hundred hours in a couple of years, sounds like you are one tube away from having a life time supply of tubes plus backups. The 5AR4 tube will blow on a Mono VRD if you do not let it cool down for about 5 minutes after turning it off. Not sure why -- something to do with output tubes being hot and drawing more current than the 5AR4 can handle on startup. I know they blow up with a Flash and Pop if hot from leading by example. I did it a couple of months ago and my wife almost did this weekend. She did ask permission first knowing this issue, I said yes, then screamed NO just in time. I like the Mullards, last longer, some think they sound better, I think they do sound better but it is not a huge improvement and they are about 5 times the cost of Groove Tubes though. Since it was only few hundred bucks for a Life time supply I went with the Mullards. If the budget is an issue this probably a good place to save some coin and stick with the Grove Tubes. The small tubes are the best place to get a big improvement for the same or less coin than good Mullard 5AR4s.

I hate to say, I agree with a Buckeye. What speakers do you have? (Knowing this will make the answer better) If staying with your budget I would check out a Onkyo 800 series, less then your buget. Add a couple of Adcom 545s or 535s off the Bay or better yet here, and for less than a grand you will have a nice "Seperates" system without dropping a lot of coin. 535s are going for less than $100. 545s a little over $200. Most people could live with a System like this for the rest of their life, I lasted about 6 months. Then some day the Adcoms will sound great in an office or the Garage or hooked up to the Onkyo playing music through in-walls in the Kitchen and Living Room for parties -- That is where my Adcoms and Pioneer Elite are headed. After that a significant improvement in sound will require even more significant cash, better Processor, better amps, Speaker upgrades, better room placement? Sound treatments or at least more accoustically friendly furnature most important a Matching Center Channel? I have bought many things used, an 2002 McIntosh MX132 Processor for a little over a grand instead of 5 grand on a new one with the same exact specs. (No HDMI though) For Bluray I run an HDMI cable direct to my Flat Panel and use the audio outs to the McIntosh, sounds way better than a Pioneer Elite that was over a grand. For ATT Uverse the only option for Surround Sound is Component to the Flat Panel and Fiber to the McIntosh, Uverse is basically limited to 720p and low bit rate audio so for over a year this has been a great setup. I do not miss the HDMI conections of the Pioneer Elite 1 bit.

How many hours on the Stereo VRD? Craig recommends keeping a Spare or two 5AR4s, less than $ 20 per if buying the Grove Tube Variety. I have heard they last around 5,000 hours or more. Doing the math that works out to less than 1 penny per hour for both 5AR4s. You could spend a lot more on tubes, listen couple thousand hours a year and still spend less per year than 1 round of golf at a good course, one month's Electric Bill etc. Tubes are the cheapest part of my system and per hour this one of the cheapest Hobbies I have ever had.

Cherry looks great. So does your response compared to mine. Stock Cabinents, 55m Universal XO, JBL 2404, Microsoft Excel, Log axix, copied to PowerPoint saved as picture and Shack Meter adjusted based on published corrections. I could really feel the cabinet sides and Dog House vibrate at 160 Hz. The dog house stopped by between 160 and 125 but the sides kept on vibrating much lower.

Thanks again Al. Here is the chart Log and smoothed Mac version of Excel with above corrections. Really looks like the La Scala natural freq of 160 is for real. I could feel the Dog House and sides vibrate at 200 Hz. Both the Dog House and Sides vibrate at 160 Hz. At 125 Hertz the Dog had stopped vibrating. by 80 Hertz the sides had almost stopped vibrating. 1" Sides and 1" Dog House experiments are in the future. There is a dip around 400 Hertz, maybe 500 Hz cross over will fix this. . .

Thou shall not covet another man's wife . . . Thou shall not covet another man's wife . . . Thou shall not covet another man's wife . . .

Thanks Al, Unlike you I do not remeber how to run or own a O-Scop. I bought a Test CD from Stereophile Magazine that has Warbler Tones from 20 to 20 KHz. If I use the CD and the correction values above will that give an accurate enough way to set my Sub Wooofer? Give me an accurate assessment of my system in my room? For less than $300 bucks is there a Mac friendly micro phone and software that is more accurate and worth the time and effort?

Thanks, Found a site. I thought it was a little too much, I will turn down the volume and move the cross over up slightly. Makes sense based on what my ear an knowledge of La Scala Bass bin roll off. Frequency Correction Frequency Correction 10hz +20dB 500hz -0.5dB 12.5hz +16.5dB 630hz 0dB 16hz +11.5dB 800hz 0 20hz +7.5dB 1.0khz 0 26hz +5dB 1.25khz 0 31.5hz +3dB 1.6khz -0.5dB 40hz +2.5dB 2.0khz -1.5dB 50hz +1.5dB 2.5khz -1.5dB 63hz +1.5dB 3.15khz -1.5dB 80hz +1.5dB 4.0khz -2dB 100hz +2dB 5.0khz -2dB 125hz +0.5dB 6.3khz -2dB 160hz -0.5dB 8.0khz -2dB 200hz -0.5dB 10khz -1dB 250hz +0.5dB 12.5khz +0.5dB 315hz -0.5dB 16khz 0 400hz 0dB Add the dB to meter reading to get the actual.

How accurate are Radio Shack Meter from 20 Hertz to 20KHz? I thought I some charts that showed how many dbs to that Shack Meter are generally off a year or so ago? I just used one to set my Sub Cross Over and Volumen seams right just wanding how accurate it was.

One of the guys I fly for and a friend of mine took the roof off Friday afternoon, framed it on Staturday and Sunday. One of his friends gave one day cushion, that was not required, before he came over on the following Tuesday and finished putting all the shingles on. Framing Crew: 6 Foreman and 9 Carpenters. Paid them cash and got the materials for my friends cost, Lumber yard billed me direct my friend did not want a penny - just overtime for his crew. What a guy. They also added Store Room on the Back of the Garage and resided the whole Garage that same weekend. (I watched one his Foreman open a Code Red Mountain Dew Drink half of it, pour in an Energy drink into the half empty bottle then finished the mixture off and go right back to work.)

Limit of my Electrical knowledge.

Only thing flashy around here is an ocasional Golf trip and even those usually envolve my favorite sandles. This should help find it -- Cedar Columns. Our goal was to add a Dormer/Second story but make it look like we did not add a second story.

Awsome Ideas for improving the appearance of Ported La Scalas! Dave is much sharper than the average Bear! I would like to have Top Sections that are a couple inches taller to accomodate JBL 2404 tweeters above your Fastracs. Increased volume from being taller would be more than offset by reecessing the "moter board" locally to get the JBL 2404 behind the grills would more than offset and volume lost by recessing the Tweeters. Might even be enough room to keep the Crossover in the top section. I built a couple of Prototype boxes to hold the JBL 2404s on top of my current La Scalas and recessing the JBL 2404 1.5 inches did not create any wierd reflections that my 40ish year old ears could detect. I could detect much more realistic symbol sounds versus the K-77s. This would through off the proportions slightly Tops look a little tall, but not bad wife has approved tops like Hoaks taller tops. If the Tops were 2.5 inches taller, making the base 5 inches taller would keep the proportions same as Stock and follow the Rule of Thirds precisely. With VRDs and the right tubes I really do not need more bass, but if more lower Frequeancy Bass for movies came along for the ride while fixing the proportion issue, that would be awsome. I am sure you will out the tuning. How much for my Ultimate La Scala Cabinet with Cheery Laminate? (Downfiring ports would also be acceptible)

There is always a catch. . . I would not be surprised either, might come in same boxes as some Tung Sols. Birmingham, MI is the Swanky Address. Beverly Hills, MI Is the affordable housing address in Birmingham Schools. Google my address just sent, use the little guy and see all sprawling 2,100 square feet on a 100 foot lot. In 1952 they built the first 1,000 square feet. . . Some idiot saved some money adding 1,100 square himself except for the framing and shingles. I heard the @#$whole saved enough cash to buy a really cool stereo. (Also saved enough to DIY heated floors, also very cool during Michigan Winters) In case you are wondering there are 68 cuts, mostly miter joints, on each one of those 8 Cedar Columns. The semi neat thing about the address is when I travel and people ask were I am from I can answer: "I live in Beverly Hills near Time Allen." Tim is actually from Beverly Hills, Michigan, still has house here, and friends of my wife went to Seaholm High School with him. His Tool Time Show took place by Woodward Ave which we walk to for ice cream, Dream Cruise etc. Any Forum Dude, Dudettes will need my wife's approval, coming to Michigan for the Dream Cruise can shoot me E-Mail if they want to hear what VRDs and La Scalas sound like, really close together in a Basement.

Doug will be sending a quad of SCs. After this past week pretty convinced there is no best tube, only tubes that are better than some poorly done tubes. The 88Zs have the nearly the warmth I like when paired with Amperex 7316s in V1 and 7025s in the V2 Slots. Rate them 49, if 50 was perfect, 0 was ear splitting harshness and 100 would be mash potatoes packed into the horns. The Genalex Reissues were a little harsh around, 46 on the same scale, but the low and mid bass were much better, stronger and tighter. Note: Solid State Amps, Adcoms were about 40ish, caused headaches after 45 minutes or less of listening with stock horns. So which Output Tube is better? Niether really, depends on what you like. But both sounded way "Better" than 98s (Not the SCs) Some short plate 12AX7 Mullards showed up as a gift earlier this week. I gave some similiar Mullards away because the sounded way to warm in my Mc Intosh MC-240. With the Amperex 7316s and Mullards in the 12AX7 Slot, KT-88Z were way way to warm, 60ish on the scale. When the Amperex 7316s, Mullards and Genalex are combined I got all of the warmth of KT-88Zs and then some, about 52 on the scale but kept about all most all of Low end and Mid Bass strength of the Genalex Reissues. Maybe I have to readjust my scale, 52 is the new 50. So I have a new view on tubes, not better or worse individually, but how they fit into the system they are in. If the Stock K-401 Horns were back in my system instead of Tractrix Horns, Fastracs, the KT-88Z and Mullards may be just right in the warmth department. So far I like two "Tube Systems" 1) Amperex 12AU7s, Amperex 12AX7 with KT-88Zs 2) Amperex 12AU7s, Mullard 12AX7 with Genalex Reissues. Next up some 6550s and 98SCs. Two combinations I could listen to for the rest of my life, going for three or four. . .

OVERKILL UPFRONT, OVERKILL UPFRONT. There is saying about pay at places of employment in up here in the North -- Get it when you walk through the Front Door. Even in good times big raises are rare. Why this anololgy? If you do not start with a matching center channel no amount of annual increases will get you where you want latter. I have put everying thing under the sun at an Academy, improved it greatly most people thing it sounds fine now, but it still does not match my La Scalas. (Improvements: New Crossover custom built by a forum member, replacement tweeter from Klipsch, VRD amps and the best tubes avialible) I totally agree and can confirm the Idea above: Center Channel the same as or made from the same components as Left and Right is the way to go! Some Studio Engineers utilize the Center Channel almost exclusivly to create the Center Imaging for Voice etc. On these disks any weakness in the center channel is brutally exposed when panning off the center of the screen. Examples: When an actor starts on left side of room, Left Channel, and walks to the center of the room, image needs to pan with the Actor from left to center of the room. Cars moving across the screen etc. The Engineer is left with one of two basic choices 1) Tappering off the Left Channel and ramping up the Center 2) Tappering off the Left Channel and ramping up the Right Channel: (Third possibility is a combination of the two above if he is into moving three things at once instead of just two or if the sound goes from the left side all the way to right side and passes through the center on the way. Even the sound goes from far left to far right the Enginer still could skip the Center Channel - Alan Parsons does this many times on the Dark Side of the Moon) If the Engineer uses option one when panning sounds it gets really, really, ugly if the Center Channel does not match exactly. Center Channel on average gets the most sounds directed to it and is more important then Right and Left channel for HT.