Quiet_Hollow

For wood heat, my Pop burns slab wood exclusively, which he buys in very large bundles. Cost effective if you have the space for a load.

Good grief, you're bringing me down Jim. [] This was the same thing people were saying when walkmans came out in late 70's. Good audio isn't going anywhere. Playback systems are technology, and that means people have to learn the technology. Gotta give the youth the time. Appreciation takes a while to develop. A person is not born with the skills or resources to instantly piece together a jaw-dropping system. You want to talk about some BIG detriments to good sound, how about art deco interiors and the increasing popularity of hardwood flooring? What's to say. Gotta find a woman that likes the same things you do, or can see beyond them for you. [Y] This scenario is a two-way street. If she's mature enough, I'm sure you can get her to realize that there's a myriad of things, she owns, that you could complain about also. [] - QH

...or with a properly dialed-in component subwoofer that uses it's own amp. Divide and conquer. The mains and center won't ever see more than 30V in a correctly setup X.1 home theater. The sub takes the brunt of the power, by a factor of 100 or better. I'd advise against letting your wallet, and more importantly your sound quality, become a sucker for headroom you'll never use. If you're contemplating a 200+ watt power amp, measure your current system to be sure you'll actually use it. Analog high-gain amps are fun, until you find out they also amplify every bit of noise that creeps into the system.

Did you set levels between the two amps with a test tone and an SPL meter? You could have been experiencing one unit playing louder than the other.

This is how the chip amps get their rich mid range and distortion-free top end sound. The signal is digital (ie. superior noise rejection and completely faithful to the original sample) right up to the output filter. The signal is amplified entirely in the digital domain and suffers no phase anomalies from feed back loops or audible distortion added from the components it passes through. At the output filter, the now completely amplified analog signal, passes through only three physical components in the final network, two inductors and your speaker. It's the least complicated path an analog signal has to make, in any amp I've ever seen. If the original sound was analog in the first place (instruments, vocals, etc.), instead of reading the amp with D3 and other chip-amp technologies, you're speakers are essentailly seeing the recording studio's A/D ( a 1st generation digital signal, barring any error correction). The signal is an exceptionally faithful reproduction of the digital master from the studio to your speakers. This is one of those technologies that separates the cream from the milk with digital media. It is neither trivial in process or result. []

I meant it the other way around. D3 in the Pioneer is superior to component amplification for your RF's. It's a long read . It's a high-frequency, digital, integrated chip amplifier. It's nothing new, and Pioneer isn't the only company to have used similar technology, but they're the only ones that offer their take in an HT specific multichannel AVR along with advanced room-accommodating signal processing at the moment.

The secret to the SC's sound is how the D3 chipset handles the source signal and amplifies it, all in one shot. It's Pioneer's own take on the ol' Equibit topology. Emotiva, Outlaw, and many other component products are not in the same league in that respect. The difference in sound between the amplifier technologies is not a subtle one. [8]

Another one bites the dust. [:@] I feel your pain...

Every time I fire up my system I'm always reminded of that scene from Sleepy Hollow where the horseman leaps out from that tree. No matter how loud it's cranked, the system is dead quiet until all heck breaks loose. Hence, Quiet_Hollow

Going seperate will get you penalized sound-wise at this price point. The best amps for digital sources handle the signal in the digital domain right up until the speaker output terminals. So unless the component amp directly accepts a digital bitstream (SPDIF or AES), you'll be transporting an analog signal and all audible issues that arise from doing so. There are component amps that directly accept digital bitstreams, but I feel they are overpriced for what they bring to the table.

+2 [Y] for the Pioneer... I have personally listened to an SC-57. When set up correctly (the MCACC and all) it is, IMHO, one of the finest sounding AVRs on the market for playback of digital source material right now. I cannot however comment on all the whiz-bang DNLA features, nor how well it handles analog sources as I was not interested in those at the time I listened to it. It will serve your RF's very well sound-wise.

Sound isn't getting worse, it's just getting easier to broadcast angst about it. Neil is barking up the wrong tree. How about getting rid of commercials, so I can actually listen to whatever crappy music is out there for a change? [:^)]

I understand ya there, but what I meant was all speaker designs aren't necessarily comparable, even within a company. You want to avoid logic like this, "I heard some interesting-looking JBL ASH's at a club the other night, so I'm going to buy an ES powered sub for home because those things far-king rocked!" Different on so many levels, no lines can be drawn between the two.

Don't test drive a Malibu going in with the expectations of a Lambo. It's best to zero in on a few key qualities that you find desirable and begin drilling speakers for those qualities. Most importantly, start reading up on enclosure and driver types. Learn about their inherent properties.There's a lot of give and take going on between designs.

Yup, that's the one. Across the top row from left to right is: - Anti-static wrist band (in the baggy) for soldering and handling components - Butane soldering pen (in the red case) - Coil of thin gauge Kester 44 solder - Coil of solder wick for component removal - Can of DeoxIT DN5 (formerly Cramoline) for treating connectors and pots - Small tub of flux - Blue ESR meter - Rat Shack SPL meter - Dual unit tape measure In the foreground from left to right: - Scientific calculator (TI-30, one that does trig) - Digital Multimeters (Fluke 179 and 87V) I use two good meters to confirm a part when doing repair work, but having just one will work for starters.

Lots of threads with people showing off their fancy gear so I figure I'd post my modest collection of tools. This is what I use to extract every ounce of performance from my system. This is how I stay in the "know". These are the means to making a $2000 system stomp all over a poorly executed 5-figure system. I would consider this the minimum necessary out-lay to measure, setup, and basically maintain any audio equipment in a modern home, shy of the knowledge and skill required use this stuff properly. The only other critical item I forgot to include in the picture was my test CD. [H] Naturally, one could get really expensive in a hurry with test equipment, but that's not the point. This here is enough to put you well into journeyman territory, and save yourself a ton of coin in the end, by letting you know exactly what you need to accomplish your goals.

Fair enough. RTA is great for that. REW will provide that in spades. [Y][H]But also be reminded that XT32 is not only EQ'ing the response in the frequency domain, it's also adjusting phase angle in the time domain which you will not be able to "see" in a single plot. You can get a frequency response plot, and even a haphazard phase plot, out of REW that will allow you to make a quick graphical comparison, but you'll need to closely study the waterfall and impulse charts of the entire set of speakers to see what else it's doing to make the subwoofer hand-off as good as it does. [8] -cheers

You're receiver has MultEQ XT32....is the sub hooked up to it? If so, why the interest in the REW/BFD combination? I went with Audyssey explicitly to get away from all the time I previously sunk into messing around with that stuff.

Well said. [Y]

That's an ingenious work around. Good grief, I understand your frustrations now! My appologies if I came across a little persistant, but I can now totally see where you were coming from. Guess the only stone left unturned is, How does is sound to you now that everything is all trimmed-out correctly? Little more bass? [H]

When the DSP would cut the sub signal, after your adjustment, what happened to the trim level going to the mains? Did they stay put at -12 or did they come up any?

Are you raising the sub level by raising the trim level in the AVR, or are you actually turning up the volume knob on the subwoofer amplifier? I'm really interested in what kind of subwoofer you're using. What is it and where is it placed in your room? La Scalas (and most other Klipsch) get loud using very little power, so if your sub is slacking in the SPL department (which most are) , the drive signal has to be boosted to make up for the difference. In that the sub is the first thing measured however, everything else more sensitive is going to have get it's signal cut to avoid walking all over it. Audyssey at that point is just the referee trying to keep the loud ones from over-running the quieter one (the subwoofer in this case).

Re-read the OP's post and think about what the subwoofer will be doing to play with the LaScala's. Cutting the main signal level in relationship to the subwoofer signal level yields more output from the sub when you turn the volume dial back up on the AVR to achieve the SPL you normally listen to. The DSP would cut a lot more than 12 dB out of the signal if it could, but it can't. So the main signal relative to the sub signal is too much. Just like he said. 3 of us are saying the same thing. Turn the volume knob on the subwoofer up before running the tests.

It doesn't work like that. There's nothing being "stolen" from anything. It's just the DSP in the AVR trying to level the playing field and make everything work. The amplifiers inside the AVR and the speakers hooked to them don't know any different. In this case, the subwoofer is simply being asked to loaf along, while it should actually be working harder.

I don't have an Audyessey based AVR, but I do run another piece of Audyssey-based equipment. It's not the speaker's fault if the DSP is trying to trim them so much. It's a gain-staging issue. The sub, especially depending upon what design it is, is going to run much "hotter" than the LCR & surrounds. ~10-20 dBW typically. Reset the receiver to start from scratch, turn off the subwoofer, then set the receiver to emit it's built-in test tones. Turn that up to 75 dB SPL at the listening position when the tones come out of the mains and note the AVR volume setting. While still playing the test tones, turn on the sub. Then adjust the subwoofer's crossover point (on the actual subwoofer) as high of frequency it will go, then adjust the subwoofer amplifier's volume knob until the meter or mic at the listening position reads 75 db SPL. From that point you can re-run Audyssey. The volume setting on the AVR should be quite low and the knob on the subwoofer amplifier should be higher than what it was before.