HornEd

Bryan, how about something less foul smelling from a native San Franciscan hiding out in a Santa Cruz Mountain retreat? Your set-up is great for CD music... but leaves a lot to be desired in the HT arena. I, too, know the thrill of an all Heritage HT... but I am using Klipschorns in the corners and a Belle in the center. My second HT features six matched KLF-30's... four of which have been "horizontalized" to provide a front center speaker that goes on top of a 65" HDTV... and a rear array of specially modified speakers to provide a wider sweet spot. I also have a custom 7' Dual Ultra subwoofer tower that resides in a specially constructed subwoofer corner that doubles the output with less low waves butting heads or double-teaming. The flaw I find in your otherwise awesome rig is that the center channel is the primary speaker when running DVD's at 5.1 (or above). The discrete center channel carries upwards of 75% of the total sound available on a DVD. Thus, you have those beautiful belles playing second fiddle to an overmatched Heresy. Try listening to your Belles with a "phantom channel" setting on your receiver and you will see how much your missing... but you will have to sit in the dead center of the sweet spot to get the full effect. Failing an exact match of Belles all the way around, you might try using horizontal Heresy's in the rear array... surrounds and rear center... and an inverted LaScala or Belle above your TV. But then, I come by my horn loaded moniker honestly... but you should look up the system of my hero, Q-Man. He is the king of Heritage HT. Check him out on the Klipsch search facility. =HornED

Naw, JDM, I'd just kick back and turn up the volume on my Klipschorns & Belle and enjoy... just like I was the "Real McCoy" McCall! =HornED

Lots of subs create a smoother subwoofer response but can be a nightmare of colliding big waves (some lows exceed 37') cause nulls and doubling. I've used as many as five subs in a 6.1 system... and tossed them all for a pair of SVS Ultras stacked together in a 7' tower in a specially built free-standing subwoofer corner. I limit the subs to under 85Hz and push a 1,000 watts to 'em. Putting them in a corner doubles their power... stacking them prevents the prime causes of collisions. For me, it is the way to go over the 121.5 dB barrier that defines professional theater sound. =HornED

Wow, I may have a truck coming back from Florida in the next couple of weeks... that would give me the extra set of Khorns for the next theater experiment... and raise my Cornwall herd to four. =HornED Hmm, I just can't kick this Klipsch habit... fortunately!

I'm with you, Frzninvt, there is nothing like an all Heritage multi-channel audio and HT. I wish I knew m00n was selling his Belles for I would have liked to replace my Cornwall side surrounds with Belles to match my front center... but I believe I'll stick with the Klipschorns in the corners for my #1 HT. Of course, the #2 HT with the four "horizontalized" KLF-30 Legends also outperform any HT config I've heard in an audio store. And, m00n, the secrets to a great center channel are 1. Build a new motorboard that puts all of the speakers symmetrically close to the center. It helps the anchoring of the center speaker to the screen... and allows the right and left mains to play a better "second banana" role on well audio engineered DVD's. If you find someone who can use a router and can follow instructions, I will be glad to explain the concept by email. More later... =HornED PS: TheEAR(s), I sure would like to hear your impression of six RF-7's in a 6.1 configuration for HT... it just seems to be your kinda thing. I know it is mine, my Maple Leaf friend. H.E.

Actually skonopa you are on the right track... at least to my way of thinking. Since upwards of 75% of the total sound of a DVD comes through the Front Center discrete channel... in effect, all of the other speakers in the front and rear arrays are directional support and ambience speakers for the Front Center. Unfortunately, the WDST aspect adds to the "immersed-in-sound-waves" effect but severely erodes timbre matching and upper range directionality benefits in an attempt to make ProLogic era DVD's a better sound experience. And it does help ProLogic fare, poorly engineered 5.1 DVD's and tends to "MUSH OVER" acoustic flaws often found in home environments. WDST is a great advantage for someone with a lot of old VHS tapes to enjoy... or a "cluless round about room" to fill... or a meeting of 'Bama Alums... but it should not be a target for serious Klipsch movie fans without a similar handicap. I'm sure glad that Klipsch makes enough speakers to give us a choice... even if the choice is re-engineering them to perform as well as modern DVD's can. =HornED

Hmmm, skonopa, not having a baby... just thinking of my youth when I used to listen to Sgt. Preston of the Yukon saying, "Mush you huskies!" And that's what you'll get above about 2500 Hz... MUSH... MUSH that smothers timbre matching potential of having the same speakers all around... MUSH that clogs your auditory senses with non-directional confusion... MUSH that takes you from the natural to the surreal. MUSH that makes you think of Talk-to-Keith... a rolling Tide of all enveloping MUSH. As for me, I'll do oatmeal and a rasher of monopoles, thank you very much! Enjoy guys, and let us know how you like your MUSH. =HornED PS: Careful guys... you are about to discover the secret of why Bose blows!

JT, your post is most appreciated... and you are correct in that stacking the tweeter and mid-range horns in the center make the screen anchoring Front Center chore ideal in a horizontalized floor stander. I also mount the twin woofers as close as practical to the center as well. One item in your post caught a negative glance... the Front Center speaker is only a center fill when playing music on CD's. DVD movies make the Front Center the primary speaker pushing upwards of 75% of all the sound on the DVD through the discrete center channel. Modern DVD's essentially place the Left and Right Mains in the role of Front Effects speakers rather than mains. You might find it interesting that the three rear array speakers in my Legend HT also have modified motorboards which stack the tweeter and mid-range horns and place the woofers as far to the left and right outer edges as is practical. This widens the angle of dispersion to broaden the sweet spot without negatively impacting the positive aspects of directionality and timbre matching. I use rear port deflectors to further enhance the benefit of discrete channel localization/dispersion. Also, all six of the main speakers are cut off at 85 Hz. This allows the woofers to become super quick low-mid-range purveyors of directional sound... and all the sub-85 Hz sound comes out of the 7' stacked dual SVS Ultras mounted in a special subwoofer enhancement false corner. By stacking the subs in a false corner with deflectors for the ports on the bottom and on the top, I get the most our of my subs with the least long-wave pollution of the neighborhood. I've taken a few photos as requested by a few Forum friends and will post them as soon as the current spate of re-engineering is completed. I have been distracted by the completion of a hundred foot native-stone art wall with a twenty foot high, twelve foot wide waterfall as a backdrop for the new pool. I am trying to complete the construction so that a sod lawn can be laid down for this year's enjoyment. Sometimes this Northern California weather is a real plus... and this 110 acres of forest may soon be joined by an adjacent 140 acre box canyon with an always flowing natural waterfall and stream coursing through it and onto this property. The trend toward keeping such pristine mountain forest land from major development fits well with my intent to preserve its pristine nature... it's a great place to be at one with your thoughts and the planet. Since the neighboring properties are owned by "open spaces" entities, our little corner of the world provides a great backdrop for Klipschorns... and other natural sounds. =HornED

Thanks for revealing your split personality, Keith... but most find your comments more "Simple" than "Plain"... there was a time when you were quite helpful to many of us... but sitting around using your "$" to make a "hit" doesn't do any more for your Roll Tide Tech Image than copying Klipsch sales data did. Since making my Legend Theater available to private club members twice a week the system has attracted standing room only crowds at every session. What ever I am full of seems to be attractive to all who hear it. Just for fun, I set up a pair of Klipsch WDST units and A/B'd them with the three KLF-30 "horizontalized" rear array. The vote was unanimous, the WDST got a "good but ordinary" comment and the HornEd Version got a "clearly spectacular" rating. Both tests were made with the three KLF-30 front array, KLF-C7 Front Effects and 7' Twin Ultra Tower (now surrounded by a specially constructed bass corner magnification unit. The bass corner is made of 3/4" particle board with a flared top deflector and base with all connecting surfaces glued and screwed. The next step will be adding two layers of sheet rock and acoustic foam to increase the reflectivity and act as a bass trap. The next project will be a band shell to reflect the port emissions of the KLF-30 Front Array toward the sweet spot... and specially designed port deflectors to enhance the surround effect of the rear array. I've taken some photos of the special designs for the 30' "in-the-round" Klipsch Mongolian Yurt Theater and will display them as soon as this last round of modifications is done. You see Keith; I just don't speculate and spear my fellow Forum Folk... I take what they say and what I think and actually compare them... and not just on my own ear bias! But I do have to thank you "All Talk Too Keith" because without your needling I might not have carried the Legend Theater as far as I have. So, once again, thanks for your Klipsch Spear-it! The Keith Komic Relief line forms at the end of the Crimson Blush Tide. =HornEd PS: m00n, you know I appreciate all the work and thought you have put into your journey into the Klipsch experimental world. You have made great strides and have my continuing admiration. You bring a lot of candor with just a bit of dander into our lives. And when it comes to building home theaters... you have taught us that it is "all in the wrist!" More later. H.E.

Skonopa... your experience is just what I would expect. The warm fuzzy penchant of our "RollTide" curmudgeon and Audi-o Exspurt was designed to make the most out of ProLogic wimpiness... and create an avenue for those with acoustically challenged listening areas. My preference for timbre-matched monopoles is for 5.1 or above DVD movies with audio soundtracks engineered to take advantage of 5.1. There are a lot of "stuck with the mud" audio engineers that still treat 5.1 like it was "SchmooLogic." In fact our Bama-bro has exhumed some comments from one of those audio fossils a time or three. Hey, I agree that second class engineering deserves second class reproduction... I just don't like to see it in conjunction with the Crimson Tide that floats many of my former engineering staff's educational boats. And, m00n, I understand your concern... and, indeed, using RC-7's as surrounds will help. In fact, the reason that I "horizontalize" Klipsch floor standers is to give them the spread characteristics of the designated center channel. Essentially, the match of the three main speakers in the front array is far more critical than matching the front array to the rear array. Three RC-7's would do wonders for your system if you mount them about six inches higher than the top of your head when it the sweet spot listening position. However, it is essential to set up your audio environment with an SPL meter to get the most from monopoles all the way around. In my experience, WDST surrounds need to be set differently than monopole surrounds. And, yes, I own both kinds so I can test both approaches in different configurations. =HornED PS: Sorry Keith, the made me do it the toilet Roll Tide humor that is.

Hmmm, while you may have put your dainty paw on a character flaw... actually, I re-read the post and it does not seem to blame my itchy twitchy posting finger on your "yurty something anymule!" And I would think that any cluless creature just couldn't be bleat! =HornED

Oops... there's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the double dip... I think I need to hit the hot cafeine dispenser again. Those extra posts just seem to hop up ever since cluless sent me that pet yurt. Sorry for the double post. =HornED

Yea verily, the m00n continues to rise... and the entire Forum is intoxicated with his HT m00nshine still... okay but it doesn't stay "still" very long... and on top of it all, his WAF rating is even higher than his diaper changing skills! Your HT is looking good, friend m00n, and I especially applaud your putting an RF-7 in the middle to get everything out of the middle a modern DVD has to offer. While my horizontalized Klipsch floor standers completely eliminate the lack of authenticity that dipoles, bipoles and tripoles (WDST) create... they also bring out the best that timbre matching, directional detail and the audio engineers intent as recorded on the DVD. With well engineered 5.1 (or above) DVD's coming available every day, I'll take listening to the real thing any day over deliberately clouding the experience by a system designed for another audio era... and designed to forgive bad room acoustics rather than celebrate good ones. If you put the time, expense and "wrist" into building a better acoustic environment... why hide its dynamics under a bushel of speaker induced acoustic mush? Oh, yeah, and while I am in "myth exploding" mode, the flat black approach is less viable for your optics than a neutral gray. Very dark or very light backgrounds against a screen create aberrations on your ocular internal processing. The best bet, so the experts say, is to use a neutral shade... and that, ideally, is the shade of gray that pro photogs used to orient a roll of color film for precise processing of color hues. The set up disk, "Video Essentials" is getting a bit long in the tooth... but speaks eloquently for the gray background... and also the full size middle speaker standing upright. Where "Video Essentials" has fallen behind the times is in its "ProLogic" approach to surround speakers, inept handling of subwoofer potential, and failure to include the rear center for the 6.1 reality that is available with current receiver and DVD technology. I look forward to the day when the m00n rises above the "Video Essentials" of yesteryear. =HornED PS: I used a commercial grade, short napped, mottled gray carpet the walls of my better quality showroom theaters... and will use a similar wall treatment to the stand alone theater to be built in a lovely box canyon with a year 'round flowing waterfall... it's 140+ acres of pristine forest and it its only entrance is an easement through the property I now enjoy. Dawn has broken as I write this from my second story office... and the wild deer have come out of the forest to nibble their way across the lawns... yes for all the joy of Klipsch sound and DVD high definition images... the sound and site of natural things serves as a reminder of what audio video ought to be. Be well my friends. H.E.

Wow, cluless, you have made me "roo" the day that I thought a yurt was a place where Mongols sipped Yak Butter tea and marked the entrance with pink plastic flamingos as a concession to the New Jersey influence on the world community (heh, heh). I always gathered that you were a "cat" of a different stripe... but had no idea how far your pet tastes extended. Just out of curiousity, is the "yurt" in the photo a woofer or a tweeter? =HornED PS: Sorry for all the duplicate posts... hmm, maybe I need to put back the training wheels on this cyber scooter. H.E.

Ye Garrards and little Fischers... now the "cluless yurt beast" has me not so hip hopping with triple-postitis! Now this carbon unit seems to be afflicgted by greenhouse gaseous attacks... perhaps there is a "methane" to my madness... =HornED

Oops, another incident of post traumatic posting syndrome. May this carbon unit excuse itself? =HornED

Wow, now that's an incentive to live another year. As many of you know, I have been doing mostly philanthropic things for the past dozen or so years. I have recently taken over as general manager of a project I deem worthwhile. The 30' "home movie yurt" has become a temporary home for my #2 home theater... but it is the one that has the most audio innovation to it. Josh, a modern version of the traditional Mongolian yurt is sold by a company called Pacific Yurts (yurt.com) and the one that has been "Klipsched" is their largest model. So, the yurt particulars are there for all to see. In the near future, I expect to design and build an acoustically correct free-standing building to be a multi-media center. And, frankly friends, part of the reason I took on this charitable enterprise is to see if I can live through some harness time. As a certifiable workaholic that would fail a 12-step process... the joys of doing even a little worthwhile helps relieve the anxiety between the rock of an alert mind and the hard place of a dying body. Cheers like I see here have helped me make the prognostications of my cardiologists a decade out of date... so far... and I am up for getting as much Klipsch time out of another decade as I can. It's been a cold winter... but an afghan, white birch popcorn, Garden State Almond Roca, countless emails, and the welcoming posts warm even the most peripatetic of hearts. Thanks for being there... and I will try to be there too. =HornED

Hello, Justin... just a note to say that I have yet to pop a kernel since I have not been back to pick up my favorite popper... but I have redesigned my 8 Legend Twin Ultra Home Theater to play in a 30' Mongolian-style Yurt. Trying to corner a 7' sub-woofer tower in a yurt is a challenge. So, taking a clue from Mr. Paul's false corners, I build an 8' false corner with a sloped ceiling to reflect those big base waves. As you may recall, I modified a KLF-30 to be horizontal as the front center with the two woofers as close to the center as possible. To accommodate more folks in the stand alone movie yurt, I modified the KLF-30 right and left surrounds and rear center to be horizontal tool... but put the woofers as far as part as the enclosure would allow. The result is an idealized monopole surround sound with timbre matching and appropriate directionality. The rear array speakers are mounted on special shelves six feet from the floor. The six KLF-30's (6.1 comfit.) are cut off at 85Hz which allows them to do an incredible mid-range. The twin SVS Ultras pump out all the directionless subwoofer fare... but the sounds appear to come from whichever main speaker that is playing the associated sounds above 85Hz. It is an unusual layout and has attracted standing room only crowds. =HornED PS: I took a break to thank all who have cheered me on this past year... and to let you know that today, May 3, 2003 I made it to 65 years of age... which also means it is about 50 years since I bought my first previously owned Klipschorn...

Take heart, bigal, there is Hope at home for the intrepid. Legends are great speakers (I own a dozen of 'em) but production line woes of the kind you describe were too common for Klipsch good! In fact, my entry into the world of Klipsch Legends came by way of an authorized dealer repairing a pair of KLF-30's with the same problem you described... only a little more advanced. What the dealer's repair guy did was to force a bead of silicone into the crack (leaving a bumpy, messy, amateur trail!). When the original owner returned to the store... he was somewhat grossed out by the rough looking repair... and totally grossed out when his salesmen demoed the repair with a bit from the DVD Sound of Music"... the song went, "The hills are alive with the sound of music..." punctuated with "farting" noises. He demanded new speakers. The put of the pair of KLF-30's for $300 for the pair... and I bought them, escaping air, messy silicone job and all. Once at home in my shop, both speakers were put in perfect working order and cosmetically correct... in about two hours. They have been stalwart performers in my Legend Home Theater ever since... with nary a "toot" except for a scene in "Blazing Saddles"... to be honest about it the "Saddles" sonics were totally sourced from the DVD. When his new speakers showed up, he didn't. After repeated calls and three months of waiting, the store manager let me have his new speakers at store cost. So four of my six KLF-30's were essentially brand new and very attractively priced! The last pair came from a former student of "Miss Valerie"... Paul W. Klipsch's wonderful wife who had been a German teacher in the local Hope (AR) education emporium. They were in mint condition, fairly priced, and function as side surrounds in my rig. The "farty" ones were carved up to be front center and rear center "HorizontalEd" speakers that I have woven their way into many posts over the last couple of years. The "replacement" pair serve as left and right fronts. A pair of KLF-C7's used as front effects speakers round out the Legend HT contingent. Oh, yes, how to repair your speakers... As I understand, the factory now uses "Liquid Nails" to assemble the speakers (methinks originally they used "hide glue"). So, first I removed all of the garden variety silicone from the back channels. The silicone had not seated well to the wood and just served as a "FLUTTER ENHANCER" as air under pressure escaped from the inner cabinet at certain frquencies. Once the channel was mechanically clean (I used an old dental tool, but any narrow metal scraping device should do), a bead of "Liquid Nails" was laid in the bottom of the channel. After having time to cure, a bead of industrial strength silicone was forced into the channel and finished with an old wooden chopstick to have a concave bead similar to the one that professionals leave on the grout between ceramic tiles. After literally thousands of performances without the "whoppie cushion" syndrome, and dozen of other Forum requests by email from folks in the bigal boat, I can say this approach is cheap, easy and practical! Even though it is only the tops that are loose, do make the beads go evenly through the channel... in fact, an effective air dam may bring better sound qualities to your ears... even if it was only "quiet air" escaping... there can be a dramatic difference in musical detail. Enjoy! =HornEd

Hey, fini, us old guys can't see your avatar too well. Did you get that gal off the piano stool and dress her up or what? Did this cabbage fixation start by buying your girls cabbage head dolls? We will all be watching your sig for health tips from now on. Like, what all goes into your home groan cabbage rolls beside coffee drippings? =HornED

Yep, and if you would convert one KLF-20 to a horizontalized center channel... and the other as the rear center, you will have a really great HT. My Legend HT uses six KLF-30's like that... plus two C-7's as front effects speakers and a pair of SVS Ultras for an "adequate" subwoofer. You are close to greatness, dhowell, and it's time to go for the gusto! =HornED

Thanks, Ou8thisSN, for the up-to-date primer on translating yesterdays VHS into today's stereo DVD's. I appreciate your cautions on the time and expense... but I am perhaps a bit better equipped to make a run at it than you might suspect. I have the computing power and just added a 200 GB hard disk that spins at 7,200 and has an 8 MB cache. The processor runs at 2.53 GHz and am no stranger to SVHS or S-Video. I have experience in building high end RIPs (Raster Image Processors) for high end printing and have had the equipment and know-how to produce commercial VHS tapes from scratch. I am also on Adobe's VIP list and was there for the annoucement of Adobe Premiere as a product. But, most of my knowledge in this field is way out of date. Your post helped point me in the right direction for which I am most appreciative. I have a computer developer friend who has been burning DVD's for awhile and we are scheduled to get together this weekend. I was hoping to get a feel for what is happening now... and your post seems to have done that for me. Thanks again. =HornED

Gordon, great to hear from you and Sweet Nancy. Unfortunately, the sampler you sent me was sent from the adress I gave you to the hospital... and somewhere in the wonders of USPS, the disk was cracked. Fortunately, I have fairly good equipment so I heard and enjoyed most of it. Actually, I didn't have much hope when I plunked it in the machine... but by using progressive scan... most of the music came tripping out. Sweet Nancy really has a talent for pulling quality out of thin air... and substantial gray matter! Thanks for sharing... and I hope more free spirited piano heads will tap into Sweet Nancy's CD's. More later. =HornED

Thanks, Gil, it sure is good to be back... even if I have to duck out from time-to-time... like next week for more tests. It is always heartening when people you respect notice when you are not around and wish you were back. I agree with you, bruinsrme, but I think I am more likely to pop in a DVD than add some wear and tear to a favorite tape. In addition to the family history thing, I have dozens of foreign language VHS films that I cannot get on DVD now... or likely in the future. My favorite VHS films that have been brought up to date on DVD are purchased as they occur and the VHS tapes donated to worthy causes. My quest is for any technical tips that will make the time and expense incurred more worthwhile. Thanks for your input. =HornED

Rats, another double post... BobG's gonna' invoke a senior citizen posting penalty if I keep this up. Actually, I'm using a new laptop and a poor Wi-Fi link and sometimes the "Submit" button doesn't seem to register... so I hit it again... and, voila, two of me when a half might have been enough! =HornED