TBrennan

Ear---Bold insulting talk, Hell, I don't even know your name. Now I've been with this hobby for 30some years and belonged to several audio and speaker building clubs and spent countless time listening to hi-fis. No I'm not an audiophile, I find the term pompous and effete, call me a hi-fi fan. Anyway my opinions are formed by my years of experience with this hobby. And if you're unaware that horns are considered outre and philistine by the high-end establishment you are woefully uninformed. I hold high-end audio in contempt, it's decadent conspicuous consumption at it's worst and worse it doesn't even work well. This is not the realm of science and hasn't been since the 1930s when WE, RCA and MGM were involved in amplifier and speaker development. It's no accident that people are returning to the basic designs of the 1930s--horn speakers and single-ended 2A3 and 300B amplifiers, they simply sound better than the audio jewelry put out by the high-end manufacturers. There is an entire horn-tube scene going on out there, much of it DIY, and made of people who like me are disgusted with the whole high-end scene and the poor sound it produces. Please tell me why high-end amps need thicker cases than a Miller welding machine does. You talk of Dynaudio Esotars and ScanSpeak Revalators like they're something great, they're just more crummy-sounding, direct-radiating, mud-magnet junk, I've heard them. Note that Dunlavey eschews them and uses a cheap Vifa. If you want to talk tweeters talk the EV T350, The JBL 076, TAD ET-703 and Onken 5000T, those are good tweeters. As for envy, I'm a single guy with a very good income, when I want to waste money I do, it's just that I'd rather waste it on other things than on poor sounding hi-fi. You're free to waste yours any way you please too. What's intersting here is that I never attacked you personally but my attacks on the scam of high-end audio have sent you over the deep end. Maybe you identify to much with what you buy instead of what you are or something like that. I suggest you get out of the house and pick a fight, bully an ironworker or tell your boss to bugger-off. I also suggest you sell the overpriced Krells, buy a nice Doc B 2A3 amp and waste the rest of the money gambling and whoring in Vegas, it's more fun than a Krell and you'll have better sound too.

John Warren---Thanks but I have plans for both types of Imperial cabinets. I just had a pair of new Altec 825 (A7-A5) cabinets built by one of my apprentices, when I work them into the rig I think I'll call it quits for awhile, I'm getting burned-out fooling with the stuff :-) Besides, I really want to get an old Fender Dual Showman or big Kustom rolled and pleated amp for my bass, my Ampeg works fine but the Showman or a Kustom is great "furniture". I'm also on the lookout for another drumset, an old Rogers kit would be cool. Glad you like the site, I really need to update it, I've many new horn links ready and new photos of mine and other guy's rigs. But I'm working 7-10s building a new powerplant and lack the time.

Keith--I hear Prana, I don't agree with him though, not agreeing and not hearing are not the same thing. Interesting that you choose to be symbolized by a big empty mouth. ;-)

Prana---DBTs don't only test for preference, they also test for difference. Do you hear a difference or not is the question, simple. If you can't hear a difference when you don't know which wire is being used and don't even know if the wires have actually even been switched then there's no difference. John Dunlavey, a serious scientific guy who makes speakers I don't like, has some amusing stories about listening tests and wires, he tells people he's switching wires when he isn't and some people still hear an "improvement". You must establish the reality of the difference before preference can be taken seriously. Your newfound audiophile vocabulary is beside the point but you can use it to read back issues of Absolute Sound. People's perceptions aren't much help if we're trying to arrive at hard physical fact, Bernadette perceived that she saw The Virgin but I don't expect most people to put any faith in that (though her uncorrupted body gives pause). And madmen perceive many things, Son of Sam perceived that a dog talked to him, he would have made a good wire salesman. I suppose some audiophiles would argue that if Son of Sam enjoyed being talked to by the dog that's all that matters. You do some DBTs Prana, put your beliefs on the line, prove them.

Gil--The speaker is an RCA cornerhorn, the compression driver and horn show the strong Shearer parentage of RCA motion-picture speakers. The thing is old, I'd guess late 1930s or early 40s, note the field-coil compression driver. You should send a copy of the photo to Don McRitchie of the Lansing Heritage site, he knows more about vintage horns than anyone I know. You can get his email address at the site www.audioheritage.org/ They should setup the museum so you can hear those old speakers, that RCA would probably sound much better than most speakers made today.

Prana-Bindu---As a product of Western thought and civilization I believe in cause and effect. If wires make a difference in sound there must be a physical reason. Signal passing through wire is simple stuff and has been understood a very long time. Therefore it's up to the proponents of wires to make thier case as they are the ones making unusual claims. One could certainly design a wire that would effect the sound but such a wire would by definition be inaccurate and be more in the realm of audio jewelry or EQ than a simple device intended to pass a signal. Mind that sighted tests are notoriously unreliable. I've been with this hobby for 30 years and I've heard so much BS that my BS detectors are finely tuned, certainly more finely tuned than the ears and minds of many gullible audiophiles. As I said before it's telling to me that the true Giants of this business had no truck or interest with wires past the simple need to pass the signal unaltered and that it was the midgets who came after who brought us this wire business. As to the wires compared in the DBTs I took part in; they were some Monsters and some very expensive wires the names of which I don't remember, as the results were unremarkable I didn't waste any memory on them. The hi-fi was a very good one, esoteric SS electronics and DIY direct-radiators of very high quality for the type--ScanSpeak drivers. It seems to me that many people base thier belief in wires more on audiophile faith than in a hard-headed look at what could actually be going on. Do some DBTs and then tell me what you think.

Ray---Yes, I recently heard B&W's big gun, the Nautilus with the 15" woofer, driven by Levinsons. It actually sounded pretty good but not as good as a horn. But it sure sounded better than the kazoo-membrane Maggies that were in the same room. :-)

Chris--Early Khorns used a radial horn made of thin wood, later ones used an simple aluminum exponential so the horns differ in thier fundamental design and not only in material. Personally I prefer the sound of radial horns to that of the KLipsch exponentails like the K-400 but I never heard the old Klipsch radials. I saw several of the old Klipsch radials while in Hope recently and they were built of rather thin wood, they might be more excitable than the later aluminums but I really don't know.

Gil--A paper I have from EV shows some effects from mismatched driver exits and horn throats. It shows that if the throat of the horn is larger than the driver exit little damage is done but if the horn throat is smaller than the driver exit lots of nasty things happen. If I recall correctly the horn throat of K-400s, K-600s etc. is actually smaller than the exit of the screw-on Atlas and Ev drivers, I wonder if this is the source of some of the harshness some hear with these horns. The tractrix KP-301 horn I modded my Cornwalls with has a much larger throat than the K-600 and sounds better.

I've participated in double-blind tests where competant zip-cord and "audiophile" wires couldn't be told apart. And I figure if more than competant wire was needed the old-timers like Thuras, Wente, Olson, Hilliard, Lansing and Voight would have known, these guys were serious scientists and engineers working for the telephone, radio and motion picture industries not "audiophiles" putzing around in the garage. And afterall PWK used bellwire in his speakers, personally I think he knew what he was doing. It's also highly suspect that audiophile wire came on the scene at the same time as the self-indulgent, gullible baby-boomers came in the hi-fi market, you know, the kind of ninnies who can't even have a simple cup of joe without making it a big deal. Also note that wires are touted the most by "high-end" types who have crummy hi-fis anyway, like I'm gonna take anything seriously from some overwrought, tin-eared ninny who thinks a Pro-Ac or Vandersteen is a good speaker.

Ray---Well I never heard any B&W I liked so your comparison means little to me. I'd rather listen to a beater, ex bar-band A7 mono through 1 channel of a clapped-out Dyna 120 than listen to cones and tragic domes with Krells or Levinsons. But I'm a music loving horny and not an audiophile. :-)

Gil--Yes, the P-Trap was developed by a friend of mine, an astute veteran horny, to deal with a 9khz flare found on some, but not all, of the Atlas drivers once used by PWK. The later EVs don't need it.

Deang---Horns can definately ring, this isn't just nuerotic audiophile weenie nonsense. Horns made of aluminum and sheet matal are especially prone to this and no-nonsense makers such as JBL and Altec have treated thier horns with damping compounds, Altec went so far as to surround thier sheet metal multicells with tar. TAD makes horns with a cavity full of a damping material on one of the outer sides of the horn. However some aluminum horns like the old JBL aluminum conicals don't ring at all but these are of a very rigid shape and are made of very heavy stock. Wooden horns like Edgars, SBs and JBL 2397s generally are dead, probably because of high mass, as are those of fibreglass or resin, the old EV SM-120A was a very dead horn, again probably because of high mass. Some JBLs and Beymas are made of a coated foam with reportedly very good self-damping qualities. The horn's mounting also effects the damping, a horn securely mounted to a baffle rings less than an unsupported one as the baffle adds mass to the vibrating system. So there are different ways to deal with ringing; damp the resonance or add mass and lower it below crossover, also the more mass the less the diaphragm is able to excite the horn, the diaphragm can only do so much work afterall. Damping material should be applied to the outside surfaces of the horn, how much and where depends on the horn. Midrange horns seem to profit the most by damping, though people report good results damping T-35 tweeters I doubt that the T-35's horn would resonate at frequencies of 6500hz and up, probably a placebo effect there.

CatMan---Well JBL is still around and thier history goes right back to the 1930s and the MGM Shearerhorn. Word is that the company is seriously considering selling the big no-holds-barred home horn rigs that they now sell only in Japan here in The States. For a look at some of these Super-JBLs like the Everest and K2 and a great deal of information on the history of Altec and JBL going WAY back look at www,audioheritage.org/ Classic Audio Reproductions up in Michigan is making no compromise horn rigs using JBL and TAD components, one speaker they make is a reproduction of the famous JBL Hartsfield cornerhorn speaker. Westlake Audio makes a range of very high quality horn studio monitors and home speakers, they also use TAD and JBL components. And you can always buy motion picture theater horn speakers from EV and JBL (EV is also a very old company with a great deal of history)but no exotic veneers for them. :-)

Try Jammin Jersey, an LA prosound dealer with LOTS of used JBL drivers. Prices are fair and service is good. www.jamminjersey.com

Cat Man---The technology of good speakers hasn't changed appreciably (save the change from field-coil to permanent magnets in the 40s) since the 1930s when guys like Wente, Thuras, Olson, Hilliard, Voight and Lansing, with the resouces of the Phone Company and the radio and motion picture industries behind them, pretty much nailed down the right way to make good speakers. The advances since then have been in making the bad speakers better. Don't worry about age, many high quality speakers from the 1930s are still running well and sounding good. A fella I know recently heard Lansing Iconics from the 1930s and was very impressed! The Klipsch company is now going after the big money, something old PWK evidently wasn't very interested in. There's much more money to be made selling bad small speakers than in good large ones; any good speaker will of neccesity be large.

Les--That speaker is one of the pro-sound versions of the LaScala, no idea what it's worth. Your wife says they have to go?!?

Edster---Yes, I heard the Zen in Decware's listening room (which is VERY small) over some horns Steve made and some small direct-radiators. The amp didn't sound bad or anything, it just didn't push any buttons, I had no emotional reaction to it. And I'm looking for emotion in a hi-fi, that's why I like horns.

Some of the pro Klipsch speakers are very interesting and no doubt much better speakers than anything available in the home line. The KP 301 is interesting; a 15" woofer with mid and high horns and the closest thing available to the old Cornwall, I've heard these and they're VERY good. And those "small" motion picture theater speakers with the double 15s and compression driver and horn above 500 cycles look very good too, if I was looking for new Klipsch speakers I'd be looking at them and not the home line. I'm surprised the Klipsch fanatics on this forum aren't discussing the pro line for use in the home.

Space-Cowboy---Tom's site is great and was the first good horn site on the web. Evidently he's been very busy with his education and unable to update it for a while. The best horn site of them all now is www.audioheritage.org/

Beverly-I use the ASL MG-SI15DT with Altec 605As. A great sounding amp and at our Chicago horn club meeting it held it's own with some much more expensive tube gear. However the thing does run out of gas trying to get real loud, it gets pretty loud but not real loud. LSs are about 6db more efficient than 605s though, the little ASL should work very well with them. I heard the Zen down in Decware's Peoria shop, came home and bought the ASL. What's wrong with the Lowthers, those are real good speakers. Personally I think Lowthers and LSs share pretty much the same weaknesses. A friend here in Chicago had Medallions and Hedlunds (I forget which drivers but the Medallion had the BIG Alnico magnets and the Hedlund the small Alnicos) and drove them to pretty loud levels with a homemade amp with 45s that had to put out all of 1.5 watts a channel. What amp are you using now with the Lowthers? If you like the amp on your Lowthers it should certainly work well with LSs.

LSs are certainly shy on bass depth but the compromise---clarity vs. depth for a given enclosure size and efficiency---is a good one. Besides it's all relative. As an ex-rock musician in his 50s my reference for good bass is a Fender Precision or Jazz played through a Fender Dual Showman with dual JBL D-140s, this was once the hot ticket for bassplaying (I won't count the Ampeg B-15 which sounded great but with 30 watts and 1-15" couldn't cut the mustard outside a studio) and to me was the best sound ever. Now D-140s in the sealed Showman cabinet start rolling off 12db per octave at 100 cycles. Not much deep bass there but it sounded great and the LS will have no trouble reproducing that sound. But a speaker that goes deeper but with small direct-radiating woofers will never sound like that Dual Showman. To me the LS's biggest problem is the mid horn, I had to sit kinda close to my LSs and the mids were too directive in my setting and sounded fierce. A little visit to a prosound store for a set of EV SM-120A mid horns with 120 degree dispersion cured that, the EVs gave much better sound than the K-400s in my situation. Listening to 130 degree McCauleys right now, not as pinpoint as 90 degree Altecs but interesting, very "audiophile", bouncing lots of sound off the walls, big image. Listening to Madonna, "Like a Prayer", great bassplayer.

RogerC---That you like the RF-7 is a wonderful thing but is just ain't much of a horn speaker. Khorns used stamped frame woofers too, they were pretty good speakers. When PWK ran the company he made products that appealed to no-holds-barred hornys and his best could stand with any competition--the Iconics, Magnificents, Paragons, Hartsfields, Imperials and Patricians. The RF-7 isn't even an attempt to play in the horn Big Leagues and is inferior to many products the company made in the past, the idea of running cone woofers past 2000 cycles probably would have made the old man flash his famous yellow "bullshit" button. Refining and improving the KLFs would have been PWK's style. The company has no product at all today that serious hornys are interested in save some products in the pro line, indeed the pro line looks very interesting and perhaps the Heritage line will come back. The Jubilee is hardly "just" like the original Khorn and in any case I'd be very surprised if the Hoosier bean counters allow the speaker into production. They've been hemming and hawing with the thing longer than it took for Hilliard's team to totally develop the Shearer from scratch back in the 1930s.:-) I'd love to see the company get back in the forefront of serious horn speakers but I have my doubts and the direction the company is taking is alarming to me.

The RF-7 looks like cost-cutting engineering by the Hoosier bean-counters. Compared to the KLF-30 it elimnates the cost of the midrange horn and driver and replaces 2-12s with 2-10s. This speaker is not based on the principles espoused by PWK, principles that are timeless and once produced great loudspeakers. I don't take this company's products very seriously anymore, they've let the really good product become unavailable and I seriously doubt the Jubilee will ever be introduced.

Jeff---Yes, you need an external electronic crossover (also called an active or low-level crossover) to bi-amp. It works like this; the signal goes from the pre-amp to the electronic crossover which splits the signal into 2 signals at the chosen crossover point, let's say 500hz. The low frequency signal is only from 500hz down and drives one amplifier, this amp is hooked directly to the woofer. The high frequency signal is only from 500hz up and drives the other amp which is connected directly to the high frequency driver. If the speaker had a passive crossover inside it is bypassed. Bi-amping is best left to DIY speaker builders or for use with speakers that originally had very simple passive crossovers that don't employ EQ. To see a bi-amped system check out my website.