Colin

Any amplifier is not THE amplifier. Manufacturers quote Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) for at their amplifiers’ highest wattage output. But THD is not the same for all types of amplifiers. Since big ole Klipsch horns actually need only a few, generally three to six, but usually not more than 20 or 30 watts, these watts – milliwatts most of the time - must have very low distortion. Because of their own exceptionally low distortion, big ole horns are extremely revealing of anomalies upstream, including the amplifier’s THD. If a component has lots of distortion at low power, the speakers can sound harsh. Odd-order harmonic distortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound), in particular, sounds harsh. Which types of amplifier have lots of odd-order harmonic distortion at very low wattage? Solid-state. I have heard the wonderful $6K Pass X250 (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0202/passx250.htm) amplifiers on my B-2 Cornwalls Is, and yet my 3-watt $550 2A3 tube Bottlehead Paramours (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/1202/bottleheadparamour.htm) can sound just as sweet, when they are not clipping. Powerful solid-state amplifiers do have headroom so loud passages at high volume have considerable slam. They also have excellent woofer control so both bass and mid-range sound solid. Yet not everybody appreciates the soft clipping of tubes. But to me, all but the very best solid-state amplifiers on big ole horns wears out my ears. I would get the VRDs in a heartbeat, otherwise the Mac is the one to beat.

dang! was just there! http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150354669111623.352319.538731622&type=3

needs more horn lovers The Suncoast Audiophile Society (formerly known as the Tampa Bay Listening Society) is a group of high-end audio enthusiasts, both young and old, with an eclectic mix of interests. We hold meetings at least once a month (some weeknights, others weekends) for listening sessions, gear demo's, audio chat, and/or live music. Our goal is to foster comraderie, promote education, and otherwise support local audiophiles, whether their interests be analog, digital, solid state, tubes, or DIY (HT/surround sound too). We welcome prospective members from the entire Florida Suncoast region. Please note that our meetup group is PRIVATE, so we require all prospective members to register with their real name. One of our Co-Organizers will follow up with you before membership is approved. SAS members may later use a nickname, if desired, once their identity has been confirmed. If you have not received a follow-up email after requesting to join the group, please double-check your email folder, as it may have been inadvertently marked as spam. http://www.meetup.com/Suncoast-Audiophile-Society/

Can you pick what is out of place boys and girls? BAL 23 @ PIT 20 Final PIT Ben Roethlisberger: 330 Yds PIT Rashard Mendenhall: 52 Yds PIT Antonio Brown: 109 Yds

So we're on the verge of the season's midpoint -- 115 games down, 141 to go -- these 10 truths have become evident as we head to November: 1. Green Bay's the best team. 2. Second-best: I don't totally trust anyone. Niners? Steelers? Patriots, assuming they can play a shootout? Or everyone's not-so-darkhorse this morning, Philadelphia? 3. The Colts are 0-8. Miami's 0-7. St. Louis, Denver and Arizona might be in play before the Race for Andrew Luck concludes on New Year's Day. To me, there's one clear leader in the clubhouse for the top pick in the 2012 draft, because the Dolphins are just too darned competitive for their own good: Indianapolis. Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/10/31/Week8/index.html#ixzz1cPwjDzEI

the ear hears as low as 20-Hz at loud volumes, music has harmonics that descend as low, doesn't seem so unreasonable to me, although I admidt that at some point a sports car becomes more attractive than a fancy stereo, but for awhile, I was adding to mine in $500 and $1K annual increments, can't do that with a sports car...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/don_banks/10/26/week.7/index.html?xid=cnnbin&hpt=hp_bn11 Packers and Patriots so far...

I am not a Colts fan, yeah, that's it, I was a Colts, but no, I not a Colts fand, nope, haven't been for at least several days now, yeah that's it, not since Peyton injuried,m sure that's it, not a Colts fan since Peyton is out...

Double wire = two cables to the same terminals; can be good Bi-wiring = two cables to two terminals; usually better Bi-amping = two amplifiers with an active crossover; best Passive dual amplifiers = two amplifiers, but a passive crossover; also best, but not always possible OLD POST How Bi-wiring Works by Jon Risch Bi-wiring is accomplished via separate pairs of terminals on the loudspeaker system, typically one pair for the woofer, and one pair for the tweeter or midrange and tweeter. They are completely separated electrically from one another. The normal function of a loudspeaker crossover is to guide the proper frequency's to the proper driver. Lows to the woofer, and highs to the tweeter. This is done in part for protection from the division of labor that has occured with two disparate speakers: tweeters will be damaged or destroyed if exposed to low frequency's and woofers just heat up when exposed to the higher frequency's, as they are too massive to respond at all. The other function that a crossover provides is in allowing the two speakers to blend together, to mesh with one another to become a single apparent sound source. They can also provide some passive EQ of the drive units, as long as there is excess energy to throw away. The fundamental way a loudspeaker crossover works is to vary the impedance seen by the speaker and by the power amplifier. In the case of the woofer, the crossover network for it has a very low series impedance at low frequency's that gets gradually higher and higher in impedance between the amp and the speaker at higher frequency's. For very low frequency's, there is lots of current flow to the woofer, and for higher frequency's, there is little current flow due to the much higher impedance. In the case of the tweeter, at low frequency's the series impedance is very high and very little current flows, and as the frequency goes higher, the impedance of the crossover network gets lower and lets through more current. The situation is such that when the full range musical signal is applied to the terminals of a full-range speaker system, the woofer only gets sent low frequency signals, and the tweeter only gets sent high frequency signals. Once the crossover networks have been electrically separated, they still continue to function in the same manner, having a low impedance in their passband of application. This means that if separate speaker cables are hooked up for the woofer and it's portion of the network, and the tweeter, and it's portion of the network, not only have the speakers and the frequency's directed and divided for them, but the two separate speaker cables will now also carry different signals, the woofer cable mostly the lows, and the tweeter cable mostly the highs. Once the highs and lows have been separated in this fashion, the strong current pulses and surges that a woofer demands when reproducing bass or drums will not interact with the delicate sounds of a flute or cymbal. The magnetic field of the low frequency signals cannot modulate or interfere with the highs, and to a lesser extent, the reverse is true. Now that the low and high frequency signals have been divided among not only the speaker drivers, but the speaker cables, these cables can be more specialized for their intended purpose. The woofer cable can concentrate on low DCR, and not have any big concern for extremely low inductance, the tweeter cable can be designed for very low inductance, and not as concerned about total DCR. Bi-wiring: Using one much larger unsophisticated cable to achieve the same thing as bi-wiring is just not possible, the separation of work has not occurred, and the ability to optimize each separate run is not available. Additionally, as the gauge of a wire decreases (the wire gets fatter) and the spacing between the pair of wires that constitute a speaker cable gets greater, the inductance tends to go up. Using one larger unsophisticated cable actually makes things worse for the tweeter, as even though the DCR has gone down and the woofer gets more energy compared to the thinner single cable, the tweeter now gets less energy in the extreme highs. The net result is a shift in the tonal balance that can even exceed the criteria held dear by the ABXers. The current path's I describe can easily be plotted, measured and verified by any speaker or cable engineer. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever about their existence or validity. In point of fact, properly implemented bi-wiring has benefits that can not be achieved by a single unsophisticated cable or even a single exotic cable. Jon Risch Tblasing: According to Straightwaire.com , the level of improvement is proportional to the difference in impedance between the high frequency driver(s) and the low frequency driver(s). For example, If the low drivers are at, say, 8 ohms and high [driver]s are at 3 ohms, bi-wiring would have "X" amount of improvement. Then if the low drivers are, say, 6-7 ohms and the highs are at 8 ohms, the improvement would be "X" amount less noticeable. I think it's due to the magnetic fields along the wire (which requires current), which with bi-wiring, the wires supplying the high current levels driving the low frequencies are isolated from the wires driving the mids and highs, and inductive interference is therefore reduced. When these currents are combined in a single wire, the self-inductance along the wire causes the magnetic fields of the low frequencies to affect those of the high frequencies, compromising HF performance.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/standings/_/type/playoffs/sort/conferenceRank/order/false

great speakers - but not with Carver amp, no wonder he is selling them

long thread here: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/121214/1222030.aspx#1222030

From "A Low Frequency Horn of Small Dimensions", Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, vol. 13, pp. 137-144(1941 Oct.): "…With a frequency response down to 40 Hz, corresponding to a wavelength of 340 inches, comparable to the performance of the typical theater woofer, this unit measures only 39 inches high, about the same width across the 'wings,' and only 28 inches deep from the front panel back to the corner… To reproduce this wavelength [i.e., 340 inches] with the same degree of smoothness of throat impedance and the same efficiency [as a typical theater woofer], a conventional horn in free space would require a mouth area of about 4500 square inches. If operated close to a floor or wall, 2300 square inches would be required, corresponding to a circular mouth 53 inches in diameter. The horn length required to match a 15-inch diaphragm would be over 80 inches. The horn of Fig. I [i.e, the Klipschorn bass bin] has an actual mouth opening of 570 square inches and a horn length of approximately 40 inches, representing a saving in volume of over 75 percent and a corresponding saving in material for its construction. A further saving in material results from using the room walls for part of the horn structure." Chris http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/121214/1222030.aspx#1222030

I was tracking vintage Klipsch model re-sales for several years now. The data is old, prices down in the last three years, yet it still provides a good guide to what to look for and expect: • Belles share the same wonderful mid and high range drivers and horns as the mighty Khorn, but fall off quickly below 100Hz. Yet they have a tipped up bottom and top-end response (many loudspeakers intentionally tip up the ends of their frequency response). Belles don’t require a corner and are same size as LaScalas, but have decorative cloth covered fronts. In a half-dozen sales on eBay, mostly from August 2004, Belle pairs sold from $800 to 2075 (average $1,352). Prices seem to have spiked upward however, with Klipsch selling new models on eBay. Adding three sold in 2006, bumps the average up to $1764. • LaScalas are the same as Belles, but with exposed wood front (no cloth on bottom), share the same lens and drivers as the Khorn and also fall below 100Hz. Their frequency response is rougher, but it is NOT tipped at both ends like the Belles. LaScalas are bargains compared to the similar Belles. From a dozen sales on eBay and Klipsch forum beginning in 2004, and recently in 2009, LaScalas sold from $292 to $2,504! Recent 2009 sales for $300, 600 and 800 are dropping the average down to $1064! In all cases, the type of crossover can make a difference, as some are better than others. The shipping average I had was $150 for both Belles and LaScala models. Because Belles and LaScalas share the same upper horns as the classic Khorn, you might say they provide 80% of the best Klipsch horn sound. If so, the average Belle and LaScala pair sell for a lot less than 80% of a Khorn.

The only stupid question is “does this make me look fat?” If you have to ask… Woofers impedance IS hard to drive. Plus, bass notes require a lot of energy. Tubes do have power though. In fact, they produce about five times more voltage than their rated wattage compared to solid-state amplifiers. Therefore, a 30-watt tube amp can compete a 150-watt solid-state amp…in mid and upper range sound QUALITY. Especially on Big Ole Horns. But not the low bass. Even on Big Ole Horns. One of the very best tube amps for bass that I heard driving Big Ole Horns was NOSvalves’ VRDs. I remember Quads being good. And the $6K Deltas (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0306/delta_studio_6s33s.htm) were warm and a bit boomy, but nice in a lush way. Much of the measured Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) of tube amplifiers is actually good – it is natural distortion our super-computer brains likes to hear from musical instruments. The reason THD is so important for a solid-state amplifier is because much of it’s THD is NOT the type of distortion we like to hear. Tube amplifiers, including Single Ended Triodes (SETS), only measure poorly when using solid-state style measurements, such as THD and square-waves. The problem is indeed the question. Does a tube amplifier of ANY wattage rating have the same measured bass response as ANY solid-state amplifier? The answer is no. For the dozen or so amplifiers that I auditioned for EnjoyTheMusic.com with my Big Ole Horns even little, inexpensive class T chip amplifiers can do a good job with bass control compared with most modest price tube amplifiers. I am no electrical engineer, but in my experience, a 10-watt class A tube amplifier does NOT have the same bass capabilities as a 10-watt solid-state amplifier. I don’t think it is wattage rating, because you can hear the difference between the two amplifiers at moderate SPL in typical size rooms. I think it is the damping factor. What actually shapes the bass frequency response (FR)? Is it the amplifier or is it the woofer impedance? Studies show that with a tube amplifier, the deep bass FR looks more like a combination of the woofer impedance and the signal, meaning the tube amplifier allows the woofer impedance to effect the bass FR. Refurbished, vintage integrated tube amplifiers may be the best bargain in purist audio, second only to Big Ole Horns. I have heard a few on Big Ole Horns. Just about the best compliment anybody can say about any audio component is their sound is wonderfully musical. Tubes are. Wonderfully musical. Big Ole Horns too. Perhaps as honky, sharp and edgy as hell, but I love the combination. Sounds like music. My 2A3 Bottlehead Paramours’ maximum output is a mere 6-watts (before distortion goes through the roof.) They drive my Khorns as loud as the ear can stand the pain – I know I measured. Yet even big Khorn bass bins can benefit by the deep and powerful push of class D amplifiers in powerful sub-woofers to provide the deepest bass for both movies and music. I have not yet heard a tube amplifier “designed to reproduce bass just as well as an SS amp.” In that case, I would like to see tube amplifier wattage double as speaker impedance rating goes down, for example, 6-watts into 8-ohms, 12 into 4, even 24-watts into 2-ohms. When I see that kind of rating in a solid-state amplifier, I hear great woofer control. I have never heard that “reproducing bass puts higher wear and tear on power tubes.” I don’t doubt it. If the amplifier is working harder, because bass notes require so much more energy than the rest of the frequency spectrum, it should be true. (The notes below 100-Hz require something like 40% of an amplifier’s energy.) Yet I have never heard it before. Huge caps make a difference in tube amplifiers. I only heard Manley Stingray (on cones) once. Trying to line up review now. It was startlingly musical.

Droid If classic corner “Khorn does have some serious issues with room modes,” it may be because the position of both the listener and conventional cone speakers can be adjusted within the room to minimize the effect of bass sucking modes.

The Brad Pitt movie, MoneyBall, and Michael Lewis interviews are pretty good...

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf Love these white papers!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/powerrankings Packers and Pats

The Klipsch Belles and LaScalas do drop off significantly below 50-Hz, making them big, wonderful bookshelf speakers! Yet there is a lot of music AND harmonics in the lower frequencies that add to the enjoyment of music and movies. Low frequency notes have overtones that extend up to the high range. Reproducing low notes accurately improves the sound of the entire spectrum. These lower frequencies require a lot of energy. http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm An EQ unit is several times less expensive component to add than the powerful and deep sub that Big Ole Horns require. A matched sub is less expensive, with more noticeable impact, than acoustic room treatments. In my limited experience, I found that an old ADC equalizer (EQ) and fancy Behringer DEQ24/96 Ultracurve Pro worked best if you apply a lot less medicine than the doctor recommends. If a 6-dB boost was required, for example, then a mere three dB bump actually eased the problem while balancing the rest of the frequency spectrum better than applying the full measure. Increasing each of the frequencies to the full amount only made other frequencies worse. The sound got slow and muddied; other frequencies went out of whack. Too much 20-Hz bass, for example, overpowered the mid-bass and slopped over into the mid-range. The main thing is to flatten the peaks softly and fill-in the valleys gently. When set-up properly, I use EQ and passive bi-amp with 60-watt class A amp on my Khorns. Even then, I still use deep and powerful sub, with dual EQ controls, to shore up the deepest notes. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/behringerultracurve2496.htm

Lions? what is all this talk about Lions? In my lifetime, they were always the worst team in football!

Is it too early to tell? Do the Colts and Bears deserve their current power rankings? Will either of them make it to the play-offs? Can the Steekers be stopped? Why and how? Whose current middle of September standings don’t show how good they really are and why?

great coloring on that pic! graphic? special setting? BTW, mid-range drivers on surrounds should match drivers on mains,otherwsie, while you get the side effects, they don't intergate as seamlessly as possible with the fronts...

http://www.voltiaudio.com/vittora2.shtml

Mike, I don't beleive you and will have to hear your system again....