RoboKlipsch

What I wrote may sound like a almost complete contradiction of what he wrote above, but it isn't. You may very well like the 450C better, but my point is simply that you aren't at that step yet. You can do other things to DRAMATICALLY improve the sound without changing the speakers. However, having said all this, you would not be the first to simply make the change and like it. Nothing will improve the sound of any system better than the first two acoustic panels, imo. Except perhaps, proper placement

I'll give you a piece of advice here that could serve you well -- WHEN A ROOM AND SETUP HAVE ISSUES....WHICH THEY ALL DO...the solution is to fix the room and the setup issues! Almost every problem related to a Klipsch speaker (we're talking, "real" reference line or Reference Premiere, or Heritage here), is not related to the speaker itself. In moving your speaker out of a compartment and giving it more space, you dramatically improved the sound of your center channel. Klipsch are well-designed speakers with extremely high sensitivity -- meaning, in most cases, they are "enough" to sound good -- very good -- in the right environment. Placement, as you discovered, is key to good sound. If they are placed sub-optimally, they aren't going to sound good. Put a 450C in that compartment it will suck, as will any speaker. It was the environment that screwed up the sound, not the speaker. My 2c is this: 1) Place all your speakers properly. Read about it if necessary or post more pictures and we can help. 2) <<** LEVEL MATCH YOUR SPEAKERS. If your AVR does not have a function that matches the SPL level of your speakers from a listening position, download an SPL app for free on your phone, and change the levels of your speakers so that they all have roughly the same SPL level using a test tone. **>> This to me sounds like your current issue. 3) Add minimal acoustic treatment to the first reflection points. This may be just say 2 panels. But this step does more for the sound of a room than any speaker can. There is absolutely, positively, no substitute for reducing the wall reflections that inevitably affect the L and R speakers, and even moreso, the center, which provides so much dialog. We're talking $100 bought from a source, or as little as $50 DIY. To paraphrase your question, you sort of asked, "Will it sound better if I get a 440 or 450C?" The BETTER question, perhaps is, WHAT would make my speakers sound better? That would be improving their placement, and the treatment of the room itself. Changing to a 450C at this point will have a minimal effect compared to placement and treatment. We're not talking a week or work and a thousand bucks...we're talking maybe a few hours and maybe $100 (imo). Take my advice, like all, with a grain of salt.

OK cool, I guess I wasn't fully comprehending it. I thought you were asking why it didn't sound good at the back. Surrounds are very flexible in positioning...but in reality, they sound much better properly placed. Yours look perfect to me for that room.

try it where your ears are about a foot in front of the side surrounds. surrounds are fine...it is the couch! ignore the other couch for testing purposes

the couch has to come forward off the back wall. theres a bunch of issues with it there. move it off the wall 2 or 3 feet and it will be night and day. audyssey cannot fix the couch position.

the closer to a wall the more the bass and midbass are amplified. if they are toed in a bit it should be ok. quality is limited by lack of absorption. treatment even a small amt would help the most. u wont get the full benefit of the rf7s until there are some panels in that room.

used market will flood imo. rf7s so good many owners will want the new ones imo.

I agree w Fuzz here.

OCD in a good way. 1. Calibrate as is and test for a while. 2. Back left by the plant, right up against the wall for reenfrocement. Leave front right where it is. I tend to think the wall on the right reenforces bass and this may help balance it more evenly so the right side isnt overpowering. 2a test placement might be right sub closer to the right front corner (outside the right main). 3. Back right in that corner under the table and leave left sub as is. This will provide corner loading for a lot more low end bass. 3a would be to move left outside of left main closer to the piano. Balance may be better further away. Get a really long sub cable and move them around testing if youre up for it. I guarantee one set of positions will sound way better than the others...which i cant say without hearing them or measuring. No matter what the subs must be wall loaded in that huge room so you get some solid low end. Gains will likely be very high...thats why that back right corner might be good (or front right corner with the back left by the plant). Just my 2c dont take my word do what u like best. Crossover at 60 or 80. With audyssey calibration one or more layouts will make it impossible to hear where the subs are and thats key. If more than one layout is invisible i would pick the one that sounds best in the most seats.

I think you've done a bang-up job getting this setup. Looks ready to go for calibration! Very nice symmetry and proper layout throughout from what I can see, spot on. In all my measurements in my rooms, I have never found two subs up front to be the "best" positioning, but each room is different. I would not be surprised if you could take either sub - left or right, and put it in the back of the room symmetrically (i.e. either centered, or off-center to match) and likely find that you like it better. That's a big room, and while the subs will definitely come from the front which is good, Audyssey is going to calibrate them such that placement anywhere in the room is going to work just fine. I realize that the symmetry is important and if that's where they stay it will be awesome. But I'm a basshead-perfectionist and with the system you have, I'm thinking you're a bit like me and want those subs "perfect" If placement in the back would be difficult for a sub, right behind the couch may actually work well too, but since I can't see the back of the room I can't be sure what would look best. I think your AVR has 2 sub inputs so location for the 2 can be handled well by Audyssey vs you having to figure it out. So what I'm saying is...if you a curious about what I say (or anybody else who gives 2 cents), it should be as easy as running the calibration in each place, listening for a day or two and deciding which you like better. That's a real plus with a 2 sub input as you don't have to manually figure that out. What is the first movie/album after calibration?

Now THAT'S a big project Soundproofing is awesome but a big job with questionable results when it comes to what your 15 can do. At 20hz the wavelength is 40feet long, yes...it is going to go into that neighbors house no matter what. But not to worry, you will find a volume level suitable that it doesn't bother them during quiet times, and can hopefully work out what is "acceptable" during regular day hours. Adding subs is sometimes but usually not about getting louder. ANY sub can get loud enough, believe it or not. But any sub cannot play low enough and with low enough distortion to sound good throughout the entire range a subwoofer could play. That is where the extra money, and extra big size boxes come into play. When you put two subs into that room, you will find that a much larger seating area can sound consistent and good, versus a smaller area with one sub. How to integrate different subs is an art and fun challenge, as the benefits are that each time you find a "better" placement, it sounds better. Don't sweat the soundproofing too hard at this point. Figure out what you're going to have in your place and make sure before jumping into construction you know that you can achieve what you want. Soundproofing IS possible but much of the attempt to soundproof a low end is almost impossible....concrete and other very heavy materials are needed to stop or reduce the flow of very low frequencies. If you like your neighbors, you want to tell them about it, and actually ask if you can come over to their side and hear it so you know what it sounds like and if it is acceptable to them. If you don't like your neighbors (or they are jerks) then it becomes a much harder issue..... Great thread keep going and keep making sure it's fun. If it becomes a lot of work and not fun, stop and enjoy what you have until the bug pushes you to change it up again.

Wow this is a great thread. Kudos to #Youthman who has helped many and really got this member hooked up with a system. Such a good set of recommendations too, do not miss out on a pair of RS52s or RS62s. They are a "miracle" speaker imo. For subs, I'll just give 2 small bits of advice -- 1) The lower a subwoofer can play, the more expensive and/or larger the sub tends to be (you want 35hz...any sub. you want 20hz or lower, much larger and/or more expensive). 2) 2 subs is much, much better than 1 sub, in a serious room. 4 subs imo is another step up. 1 to 2...."C" quality to "B+" quality....2 to 4 or more...."A+" or "theater" quality (really, better) Great to see you happy with your new purchase, keep going and have fun with it. Nothing is really ever a mistake...if you don't like something you sell it.

There are songs you know well enough that if its wrong....its wrong. Play something you know loud and tell us what you hear.

That's a good question for sure. I have the pro amps, and have heard many people's consumer versions that are designed for quiet use etc. I did a bit of research before moving forward. The INUKE amps are usually used in HT for subs, but many people and lots of DJ types use them for their main speakers. The issue with the INUKE amps is you can't use them at 2 or 4ohms and get flat response from 20 to 20khz. The roll off in the high end. The 8 ohm output though is flat past 20khz, and digs plenty low as we know from using them with subs. So that was the one concern I had that I was able to address after reading enough and finding some bench tests people did at 8 Ohms. Distortion was excellent also and under 0.1% range up through most of its output. The INUKE has DSP, which could be accomodated with a consumer amp with a miniDSP, if desired. The consumer amps have dead quiet fans, and that is a very nice feature. What happens when you add an external amp? In my opinion, if you listen at medium high volume or higher, you will notice a dramatic difference in the "attack" of sounds i.e. instruments, sound effects and explosions. I believe I can hear better separation of instruments and sounds. The difference is definitely big enough that it is instantly noticeable. That is just my experience. I could easily see many people adding external amps and noticing no difference...it would depend really upon how loud you listen and what content. It is important enough imo that it warrants serious consideration. I don't think there's any real reason to get an INUKE for this and would steer towards consumer. In my particular case, I built MBMs to sit on the floor by the mains to achieve flatter response in the mid-bass, and to integrate with the mains requires DSP delays...so it was either this setup, or consumer with a miniDSP. I could switch and may some day, but see no reason to now.

joop think of it this way -- the subwoofer crossover is an absolute point at which there is rolloff. At 150hz, it is rolling off and doing so steeply, for example. the avr crossover is also having a very steep roll-off set at whatever number it may be. If the avr were set to 80hz, but the sub was at 60hz, there would be a GAP in there, where between 60 and 80hz, there is a dead spot. Crossovers from avrs (and subs) are typically very steep to better integrate, so that would be a situation with a big issue. Likewise if both were set to 80hz, you would have the AVR creating a crossover for the subwoofer, and also the sub itself...doubling the crossover and having it fall off too fast. There are risks to what you are suggesting but at the same time there are ways in which it CAN work. But I know of no benefits to going that route, just risks.

The manual is likely telling you what the usable range of the sub is, say 35hz - 150hz, and you maybe have a crossover knob allowing you to manually set a crossover between 40 and 120...that is sometimes how they put it in the manual. There are some issues you likely know about if you choose to run the fronts full range (large), when you do the sub is not involved with those channels. Which is fine, if you know that. Many people like this. I'm interested to hear how you like Audyssey when you get to it. Excellent system and great to hear the new AVR is rocking. It's not just all about watts either, some are just better components and quality. I have a Denon and am amazed how good it is. I had no idea and kind of bought it on a whim when a dude was selling locally through ebay. Turned out to be a great AVR.

i WOULD GUESS THAT 95%+ OF KLIPSCH FORUM MEMBERS WOULD BENEFIT FROM READING THAT THREAD...IF NOTHING ELSE, LEARN HOW FAR OFF YOUR AVR SETS YOUR SUBWOOFER DISTANCE THAN WHAT IT SHOULD BE! Your graph can look like WTF why is there this huge dip in the bass...then you change the delay on the SUB setting and like magic you have 15 more db and it's a flat response. Miracle post imo.

There are two sets of delays -- delays for all the speakers, based upon distance delays between the subs, which you control, which are often not based purely on actual distance finessing the sub distances is an art form, or trial and error. more delay, less delay, you can only try so many combinations BUT this is key. Let me provide you a link to what I consider the most valuable post ever made about integrating speakers and subwoofers. It is written by the gent who designed the front speakers I am currently using. He is brilliant and knows what he's talking about -- try this and see. Derrick taught me the basics, I ran with them and found all kinds of resources http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1713458-mtg90a-s-multiple-subwoofers-mains-integration-how-thread.html ****** SINGLE GREATEST PIECE OF INFORMATION I HAVE EVER BEEN GIVEN REGARDING SETUP AND INTEGRATION....NO LIE! ******

With 3 subs or more and lots of time, I can almost guarantee you that you CAN create a mostly flat response in that room across all the listening positions. As Derrick said (and mentored me), ASSYMETRICAL! placement is not about appearance, initially. find where the "perfect" spots are and then as needed, compromise so that the room looks right. It's incredibly time consuming, and fun, to get the incremental gains that come from placing the subs. It took me weeks....change it, listen, measure, change it, listen, measure, but at some point, i reached the "end" of being able to move ANY of them and improve the response at all positions. Throwing a wrench (tool) into the mix here, I will warn/advise that delays on those subs is absolutely amazingly critical. Once placement is right, then delays are critically important. I got my subs very close to flat, but once I found the right setting for delay (it was in my case, 3ms added to the back subs) that magically all 4 came into alignment and gave me a flat response without EQ. Room treatment at that point is all that is left to flatten further. I'm gonna guess you are currently at about 60-70% of your "best" capability. Depending upon how much time and interest you have, you will notice that the more times you try new positions and measure and listen, the better it gets. For me, it was a matter of always thinking....yeah, but it could be better, right? Until the point where it couldn't. I started my entire sub placement like this -- i took one sub, and measured it in every single place around the edge of the room, labeled them on a chart and then saved them all in REW. By doing this, I had a very solid idea where the best spots were going to be. I think I took 20 measurements to get the main positions within the room. I took about 2000 more before I finished...but those initial 20 told me A LOT. For anyone who hasn't used REW yet, let me say this. You can load it up, turn it on, get your microphone connected and be measuring in 2 minutes. IT IS that easy. There's plenty to learn about it, how to use it better, what it's doing...but really, you want to see a curve of your room? It takes 2 minutes. Click - Measure, set a range, and let it work! That one measurement then gives you about 10 windows of data....SPL, distortion, delay, waterfalls, it's a load of information and you do NOT need to learn it all if you don't want to. Measuring, imo, opens the door to understanding that things like distortion, group delay, and decay are MORE important than just an SPL graph. This is where treating the room really comes into play. Sure, the SPL chart changes a bit, but look at a decay or waterfall graph and it will shock you. Take your panels out, take a measurement, then put them back, you won't believe the difference in a waterfall graph. THAT is what makes a home theater so special imo, the smoothing of the decay across the frequencies is more important than the overall SPL imo.

What you just said...and what I just wrote, is correct. Max out the crossover on the subwoofer because the Denon is handling it. The setting on the back of the sub is only for situations where you don't have an AVR handling the crossover. There are no benefits at all to setting it any lower than maxed.

The sub crossover should be turned up to the highest possible setting when you are letting the AVR handle the crossover. By setting it to the max (150hz, or LFE sometimes), this let's the AVR control things, and doesn't limit the subs output at a particular point. So all the crossover duty is handled by the Denon. The setting knob on the sub is maxed so that the AVR can do what it wants with the sub. The sub is still protected because it's own crossover setting is still engaged at 150hz, but won't come into play because the AVR will cross it lower than that. Where you should cross your sub on the AVR is not simply where Audyssey picks, that is actually showing you the LOWEST possible crossover setting. Almost everyone likes a setting in the 80-100hz range, and some go as low as 40hz and a few as high as 120, 150 or even 200 (rare). To know what is "best", one must either use their ears, a measurement microphone, or both

Of all the Klipsch I have heard to date, the KLF30 are tough to beat and based upon the design you currently have I think you would be happy with them. Very powerful 3-way with excellent bass capabilities, and terrific, spine-tingling highs. Forum member SWL had the pair I heard, and I believe he had the Crites upgrades. SWL imo is a really good resource for you if you can reach out to him or he finds this thread. #SWL I also hope CEC will jump in with a few pro equipment options as you look to me like a guy looking for a cool blow them away setup with massive capability. A few more traditional choices that I think are unique and cool -- Recently a member had RF-63s for sale, I think those would be a really fun and great speaker RF7s, I would look at these as the new 3s are coming out and as soon as they do, many owners will be selling their old RF7s to try the new ones (cheap opportunity, <$1000 pair)

ONE MORE QUICK TEST...... Set the front speakers to LARGE and see how they play without the sub. This will tell us a lot about the speaker and the AVR settings.

Muffled sound requires that you: 1) Put your ear next to each driver...the woofer, the tweeter, for each speaker and make sure they work. If not, you may have an issue with the driver or crossover. 2) If they all are playing, then you may have blocked the port. If the port it blocked, you need to unblock it. The picture is just far enough I can't tell how close the ports are to the wall. Make sure they are at least 4 inches away. 3) Boundaries create "boom" or "muffled" sounds sometimes also, so having them close to that front wall has some benefits (increases bass) but also can have negatives, where they can sound weird or bad with too much at certain frequencies. This is all solved again, by moving the speakers further from the front wall. You are hearing the tweeters blasting but not the woofers....I will surprised if it is not #2. If it were #3, they would be really loud but not sound good. Since you can't hear them well and I assume the drivers (woofers) are working, then it's quite likely an issue with the ports being close to the wall. of course make sure when running that autocal that it resets everything to default again. i.e. it's possible somewhere you had turned down the bass with a bass control on the AVR, and if the autocal doesn't reset this, it may still be set low. The good news is this problem can and will be solved...

I'll add to THK's post above -- In the end, we often obsess about what would be "best", when in reality the better question is, what will sound really good and not be expensive? In that room you could easily buy a pair of RB51s for $100-$150, pair it with any Klipsch sub, say a R10SW for $100 or $125 used and have a really good system. If you want a higher quality sub then I would stay with that SB1000 or PB1000 (or the recent NSD sale) because the size is reasonable (especially the SB or NSD) So I'm pretty sure you could have very good sound for as little as $200! Think about how important it is for you to be able to bring this setup to your new place when it becomes available....maybe it's more important to have something easy to sell so you can upgrade when you have your own room? That might be a worthwhile option to consider.