henry4841

We have strayed far from the original topic of this post. I have never heard the Topping TA-5 but my understanding is it has some type of TPA3255 board in it with a decent PS. I have two TPA3255 amplifiers I built with linear PS. One the original Texas Instruments evaluation board and another one of the Chinese designed ones. Both sound really really good at 1 watt for what they cost. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/TPA3255EVM?qs=LuYMPh7GGMSrW5R3E5EiSw%3D%3D Hook it up to a decent 7 amp or more 48V switching PS and you will have the best TPA 325# sound out there. Put everything is a cardboard box if you must. Or just buy the Topping PA5 but I can almost guarantee it will not have the Texas Instrument board but some type of Chinese clone. A TPA3255 is nothing more than the chip on the board that Texas Instruments makes that is supposed to be on all boards sold. That is unless the Chinese is making some kind of clone calling it a TPA3255 chip board. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/TPA3255TDDVRQ1?qs=vLWxofP3U2wwLYQ1tvMm9A%3D%3D That is what supposed to be on all the boards. The data sheet gives the info for making an amplifier with the chip for an engineer to use. https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3255-q1.pdf?HQS=dis-mous-null-mousermode-dsf-pf-null-wwe&ts=1691410693485&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mouser.com%2F

And Firstwatt amplifiers are not tailored to just horn speakers but mostly used on much less efficient conventional cone speakers. I will assume all the mega watt fans on this forum could use a Firstwatt amplifier as a door stop along with all the excellent 6 watt SET tube amplifers as well. Get real guys. Do your own research and you will find engineers like Nelson know what they are talking about. It is not BS which is rampant on any social media forum. How can the skeptics explain how horns filled auditoriums for decades with low wattage tube amplifiers before transistors and high power amplifiers came into existence in the 1970's? The fact is there is not a good amp made that you cannot use on our speakers for 90% of listeners. Forget the home theater guys, they are looking for effects. I am talking those that are serious about the quality of their music.

It is the design of an amplifier when used on high efficient horns that makes an amplifier great sounding and not the wasted power when used on our speakers built into many amps. As Nelson Pass says on his Firstwatt.com page, “Who cares what an amplifier sounds like at 500 watts if it sounds like crap at one watt?”

I am as guilty of sidetracking this thread as well but Melvin being a friend of ours I do not think he will mind.

You really have peaked my curiosity on this subject, whether a modern hobbyist type VOM will function on AC beyond 500hz. As you know most measurements on amplifiers are done on the DC range and not AC so I have never checked. I will very disappointed if what you say is correct about the most common VOM's purchased by hobbyist. We have strayed far from the topic of this thread started by Melvin so I will PM you the results on some of my meters later in the week and not on this thread. Take care Bruce. You are in my prayers.

I understand what you are saying Bruce, which is new to me, but I am somewhat skeptical. Are you saying that the typical $40, $50 VOM will not measure AC signals above 500hz accurately. I measure all my builds at different frequencies but most time just power output at 1Khz. At 1Khz with my tube amps I measure really close to what the engineers in the data sheet project for the tube I am using. In other words I am measuring at 1Khz what the engineers that designed the tube say I should have. You could very well be correct but I want to get on my bench and verify what you saying at different frequencies on some of my different meters. I have 3 or more on my bench at all times. I do not have a lab volt meter only the typical ones sold on Amazon that I honestly have never checked the spec sheet on. None over $50. After measuring max out at 1Khz I typically look at the range of frequencies on my scope to see if the amp holds up at the extremes of the audio frequency range. I have never depended on my voltmeter for testing output at different frequencies.

Hey Bruce, you back in Georgia now? Safe and pleasant trip I hope.

But Bruce we are not measuring Hz but voltages at speakers to determine wattage. When I want to measure Hz I use a scope and signal generator with my signal generator determining the frequency. No matter the frequency of the signal but it's strength from the amplifier is what we want to know to determine wattage. Frequency has no bearing of finding P. All that is needed is R, V, and I to determine P. That is unless I am slipping in my basic electronics knowledge. "Not to argue" you said. That is what we have fun doing on social forums but let's call it discussing.🙂 I started posting again on this thread with the prodding of Melvin in a PM. Melvin is Flevoman. He wanted to hear more and I have succeeded in others commenting so he can hear more opinions. This subject comes up every week if not every day. Those saying we need many watts with our horn speakers. Most of the time I am like other members here that know better and just laugh and make no post but this has been fun hearing all the same again and again. I do not expect to change anyone's opinion but I do hope many will take what I said for my camp of followers that are using low wattage amps on our speakers. The majority of visitors to this site are the general population of listeners with many now being home theatre folks as well with just a few true serious audiophiles. Most will be perfectly happy with any amp they purchase for the Klipsch speakers. I forgot to mention along with my excellent mega watt class A/B amp I have two class D TPA3255 amps with 300watts per channel if memory is correct. Both have linear PS and not switchers. Excellent sounding in their on way ever though I never use but a few watts from either. Class D is the wave of the future. Cheap, small, cool running and excellent sounding but still they are not class A. Class A is what many if not most audiophiles want running their speakers. Particularly the Heritage speaker owners. In front of a stack of receivers I like to play with from time to time. That stack is all the ones that have been refurbished waiting on a new home. So I bet I have more high power amplifiers than most on this forum. One of the TPA3255's is an original Texas Instruments board and the other a Chines one. The amp to the far left in the picture is one of the first Nelson Pass Firstwatt clones, the M2, I built. Built from whatever I could find around my house. Excellent sounding amplifier Nelson recommended for horn speakers.

I am sure Trey would say what he quoted is in theory and not real world. Positive he wants all the sales he can get from those owners of low power tube amplifiers of which Klipsch is outstanding on. Make sense guys. You can buy a $5 voltmeter at Harbor Freight to do the test I mentioned but be ready for a total surprise. At least $5 is what the last ones I bought cost. I have a box full of them. Work really good but do not expect them to last long.

All what I have posted on power needs for our speakers is to help anyone who is considering buying an amplifier to make a wise chose. Not to argue with anyone here. I knew from the start there are many here that will never change what they believe they need as far as power in an amplifier. Nothing wrong with having plenty of power if you do not mind wasting money. Just be sure the first watt is excellent. Many of those high power average consumer amplifiers fail short on the first watt.

Again I say show me the proof in your listening with a scope hooked up to your system the power you are truly using while listening to your speakers. Words are cheap and mean nothing without evidence to back it up. An easy way for any layman is to just use a simple volt meter set up for AC and turn your speakers as loud as you ever listen and measure the AC voltage at your speaker terminals or the back of your amplifier. See if you ever see 2.83V's peak on the meter. The figure of 2.83V's is what it takes to achieve 1 watt into an 8 om speaker. Simple Ohms law anyone can do. If you know the resistance of your speaker and the peak V's at the speaker using ohms law you can find the true wattage you are actually truly using. With Treys' analysis a $25K 5 watt Japanese SET 300B amp is worthless on his speakers. If not good for Klipsch I guess in theory it is good for nothing other than a door stopper being most all other speakers are much less efficient. Lots of fools buying expensive tube SET amplifiers which last count I have around a dozen, 5watts or less. My ears are being fooled into believing I have more than enough power. Most visiting my home while I am listening tell me to turn it down where the can talk. I will assume they have been fooled into believing I have more than enough power using 2 watts on my LaScala's as well.

Thank you Trey. That explains why for 30 years I have always loved these with big ole amps. With all the other models I've owned the K-48 is a freaking beast! I've found that 1200 wpc works very nice. I have to thank Craig for that one. I would still say to Trey, show me on a scope how much power you are using at home on your speakers. Theory and real life circumstance are totally different. As talented as Trey is, I totally respect him being a Klipsch executive, I will stand with Nelson Pass who is a step or two above anyone when it comes to amplification. When it comes to Klipsch speakers I will turn to Roy and Trey and when it comes to amplifiers I will listen to Nelson Pass. When he says his 95db speakers never exceed a 1 watt window in his rather large listening room with visitors telling him time and again to turn it down where they can talk I will stand up and listen to what he has to say. I would enjoy Nelson and Trey debating the issue or for that matter anyone else from Klipsch. Klipsch speakers needing 100watts, get real guys. Many do not know who Nelson is on this forum. Every year, except for a few execptions, there is what is called a Burning Amp Festival in San Francisco where designers and electronic geeks fly in from all over the world to spend time with Nelson and hear whatever he has to say. Klipsch executives would be more than welcome to attend and I am sure given a spot to present a presentation. It would be good for Klipsch and everyone that attends or watch via internet. There has been speaker reps there before. The list of people giving presentations is long such as, Douglas Self, Roger Modjeski, Siegfried Linkwitz, Wayne Colburn, Bob Cordell, Scott Wurcer, Damian Martin, Paul Norton, among others. The giants in audio reproductions.

That ends that discussion.

Flevoman and I have been corresponding via PM's and he is still a skeptic on amplifier power usage on our speakers because of many on this forum claiming more is what one needs. The best way I know to phrase it is this way, Prove it. Show me on your scope how many watts the AC audio signal is operating in with on your speakers. I would love to see the audio signal using more than a few watts hooked up to Klipsch speakers. Facts talk BS walks. I would like to see our speakers operating with a steady 10watts of power. I can guarantee you would not be able to stay in the room. My understanding is before SS transistors most small venues, movie theaters etc, used 5 watt tube amplifiers with some brand of horn speakers. Large auditoriums used some form of PP tube amplification with no more than 30 watts per channel. This was the norm for decades, not years. Most will never see the audio signal leave the 1 watt window in a home environment. Not even close. Not on our highly efficient speakers. An audio signal is an AC signal easily seen on a scope in an amplifier whose operation depends on DC to function. AC from the wall is turn into DC as soon as it leaves the PS transformer to enable the amp to function. What good is more watts if the audio signal will never see them. Here is a small ac signal using less than a watt, on peaks by the way, which only when abusing your hearing will ever see more than a few watts more. Exactly how can more benefit the audio signal when the audio signal never gets into that region. Here it is operating happily in a 1 watt window with tons of more watts that it will never use. Those on technical forums understand this, the knowledgeable ones at least. All of this is only meaningful on our forum to stress the importance of the first watt on our speakers. You want the amp that functions best at 1 watt and not how the amp functions at 100watts with our speakers. With our speakers think quality over quantity when it comes to watts. The Deware Zen with it's few watts is perfect with our speakers and will outperform most of the SS amplifiers when it comes to vocals, soundstage and pure lovely sounding mids. Not the best for bass lovers but as PWK said, music lives in the mids. If the mids do not sound outstanding I could care less how the rest of the frequency range sounds. It all comes down to when talking power needs, if it (the audio signal) never sees it (more than a few watts) how is it going to be better having more in your amplifier. But then there are some excellent sounding mega watt amplifiers at a premium price that sound wonderful on our speakers. I have one myself with 150watts per channel with BJT's, and not mosfets that Nelson prefers, that performs excellent in the one watt range. Admittedly though I have mine biased up where the first few watts are operating in class A and not class A/B. There is a difference in sound between a BJT amplifier and a mosfet one. I like both sounds for change. I also like the difference in sound of tubes and SS. The thing is guys you get a lot better sound for your money with a tube amplifier. An amplifier like the Zen on our speakers will shock you on the quality of sound for $1200. One will need to spend much more in a SS amp to equal the sound of the Zen. For most that is. Sound is subjective. If you went from a 25 watt SS amplifier to a 100watt SS one and the sound improved dramatically to your ears it is the quality of sound in the 1 watt window that the amplifier makes being the difference and not the extra watts that will never be used. These days in SS the design in high end audio is what you pay for and not the watts. Companies touting amplifier watts understand that is what the average consumer thinks more is going to be better so that is what is shouted in their advertising. My amplifier has 200watts per channel and my competitors only has 100 watts for the same price is what has been said for decades in rags and advertising to promote their product. I have had only one pair of speakers that actually need mega watts, a pair of Bose 901's series 2 I believe which only opened up when I put a 190watt per channel amplifier on them. We as audiophiles should learn better if you are serious about your music with our horns.

Just thought I would add, I am here to make friends. Lord knows I have made enough enemies over my lifetime.

Yes he did and he has said in multiple videos he designed high power low number amps for years but now he designs amplifiers that sound good to him. Firstwatt more so than PassLabs. PassLabs has it's own customer base. I try and read everything he has wrote and watch any public video he has done. I guess you could call me an old groupie.

Never use solid wood and I say this with some reservations. A real, real talented woodworker could possible work around the expansion contraction of solid wood but it is not something most would ever consider tackling. Plywood, MDF does not have that problem. expansion, contraction.

Randy I can be a cantankerous old fart at times so excuse me if I was short yesterday. I am just trying to pass on my limited audio knowledge while I am still around. Perhaps you do not know that I have over 25 working amplifiers at the present time not counting the numerous receivers and assorted audio gear at my house. Amplification has been my thing since I was a kid. Having built 300 watt amplifiers along with a number of tubefanatic's, Maynard, flea watt amps I can honestly say there is not a decent amplifier made that will not sound great on our speakers. This is from experience and testing many of those amplifiers in my home lab with signal generator, scope and distortion analyzing gear. You can fool the ear at times but it is going to show up on the bench if there is a problem. This is just my way of apologizing if I said something that offended you. Now I want to show everyone something I have that I am willing to say no one on this forum has. Below is a project designed by Nelson Pass for diy'ers that were lucky enough to win the selling of kit lottery. It is a static induction transistor amplifier similar to Nelson's SIT-1 and SIT-2 members here have. It has a whole 10 watts at clipping but only 5 or 6 watts of clean class A single ended watts if my memory is correct about those figures. Not cheap to even build. Cost for kit was over $600 with the retail SIT's selling for considerable more. I was the first to ask Nelson to design a SE amplifier using those Sony V-fets of yesteryear which possible could be a reason I was offered the option for purchasing the kit. I asked him this on another forum years ago about designing this amp and it was a few years later before he presented this project for members there. If our members do not know a static induction transistor has curves much like a 300B tube so it is possible to have the 300B sound in a SS transistor. It does sound amazing. Really close sounding to a really good SET tube amplifier.

Randy, here is just one time I have heard Nelson talk about his scope with a 1 watt window. Around the 12 minute mark on this video. It took me some searching and my precious time, I am 74 years old with the clock ticking down, to find this one. Ya'll members are worth it though. Guy's our speakers are fantastic with just a few watts. Just make sure they are good watts.

Current is not a problem on most of Nelson's Firstwatt 25 watt amplifiers. Many of the designs are what are called follower amplifiers with only current gain on the output devices depending on the input stage for voltage gain. Look guys there are many variables effecting the performance of an amplifier, damping factor an important part as well. If one of those high power amps sounds better it is in the design of the amplifier at just 1 or 2 watts that is making the difference. Klipsch speakers require very few watts to actually damage your hearing. I have a number of Nelson's designs with around 10 watts and never run out of power but on the retail market one of Nelson's class A Firstwatt amplifiers at 25 watts would be an excellent SS choice. Any more power is just waste. Remember Klipsch speakers filled auditoriums for decades with 5 watt tube amplifiers. That statement alone should satisfy those with doubts. All the talk of mega watt amplifiers on our speakers is just amplifier manufacturers hype promoting their product. Just be sure what you buy sounds outstanding at 1 watt.

So, you do not believe Nelson Pass. It is good we have someone on the forum that knows as much or more than him. There are many excellent audio engineers in the world then there is Nelson Pass. Trust me he knows his stuff and if says 1 watt on his 95db or less speakers is more than enough I am not dumb enough to say different. Actually he said most tell him to turn the music down when the amp is still in the 1 watt window on his scope. Large listening and test room by the way.

And how can it do that if tested with oscilloscope which will show it never breaks the 1 watt window? What in the world are the other watts doing or how can the contribute anything to the sound if not used. Makes absolutely no sense. But admittedly I am not that smart so someone with a lab and speakers explain it to me other than Nelson Pass which has demonstrated this and as far as I know still does.

Ridiculous Randy, a speaker with 100db sensitivity only needs a watt or two to damage ones hearing. Perfect speakers for Single Ended Triode tube use, period. Hook those speakers up to an amplifier and an oscilloscope set for a 1 watt window in a rather large room and it will prove to you skeptics that you will never exceed the 1 watt level unless you are an idiot. Just pure laws of physics anyone with an audio electronic background will understand that has the means to prove this. Klipsch speakers, or far that matter most all horn speakers, are perfectly happy with just a few watts. Something a newbie would say with no hands on experience with SET amps. If a 6 watt tube amplifier is not good for 100db speakers just why would many spend $25K for a Japanese SET 300B amp with only 6 watts. What in the h**l would it be good for if a 100db speaker cannot use them. Most speakers cannot even come close to 100db sensitivity. I have no problem with anyone wasting their money on watts that will never be used if that is what one wants to do but to say a 100db speaker needs mega watts is just foolish talk. The Decware Zen is perfect for great sound with it's 2 watts. By the way Flevoman has the Zen.

150-200wpc? For a speaker with 100db sensitivity with just one watt?

As I said a dc voltmeter will tell you what you need to know. Voltmeter, black pin ground and then touch both spots on board with red pin and the one that is + is where the + lead of cap goes. Just for info, when an electrolytic cap is put in wrong it is subject to pop which will immediately tell you that it is in wrong. That or the cap will get hot to the touch quickly. A blown cap is not that big a deal actually. All techs have accidently done so if they have been in this hobby, business long. It is called sh*t happens.