ka7niq

I love my CF 4's, but think Klipsch could have voiced them a bit less aggressively. I have tried every amp, SET, Tube, Transistor, Digital, etc, and wires, dac's etc. I planed on buying a Behringer Electronic Crossover to bi amp them. The Behringer has total control over every crossover parameter one could want, slopes, level,phase, eq, etc. But before I try this, has anyone any experience with the CF 4's ? I am very close to them in a waterfront small condo in a very small room. They were fine in a larger room, but just to "in your face" in this room. I wish I could get hold of a crossover schematic for them, perhaps someone could tell me how to broaden the Q of the tweeter crossover or some way to tame them for this small room ? I havent tried Digital EQ, but I am not real keen on using Tone Controls or Analog EQ. How about frequency selective plugs for the horn , are there such a thing ? I would love to hear of anyone elses advice on what to do.

I wish to reduce the overall level of the horn driver in my CF speakers. Can i just put resistor on the leads from the crossover going to the horn, and if so, do i need resistors on both leads, or just one ? How about foam plugs ? Someone told me you can kind of "tune" a horn using foam plugs that adsorb some frequencies more then others ? I really dont want to put an L pad in. Any ideas ? Or, where do you get these foam plugs ?

---------------- On 3/1/2003 4:40:28 PM AndyKub wrote: I would assume that if you heard the Parlando on Belles, that Khorns will sound similar. They are the same drivers I believe. Now that you mentioned ribbon speakers, perhaps thats what he played for me...they did sound great, but were waaaaaay out of my price range. ---------------- I never heard the Parlando on Belles, I had Belles way back in 82, they didnt stay in my house long ! I bought em used, perhaps they werent right ? I would love to try my Parlando on Khorns, but my room cant support them, no corners to speak of ! But if I had Khorns, I would be looking for some old MacIntosh Tube amps if it were me. Parlandos are hard to find, especially used, but I just feel the artificial warmth of some old tube stuff is made to order for Khorns. There is no one best amp or speaker, they are all wrong, everything in audio is wrong, everything ! The trick is to take a bunch of wrongs, and make a right ! The CF 4 - Parlando combo is magic, but the Fisher SA 16 sounds bad on the CF 4. You should have bouhght my Sa 16 ! It was just sold on Audiogon for 275 dollars ! It had that thick, tubey midrange warmth one needs for Khorns ! As Julius, He is a prince. I have never heard the Audire full range ribbons, or the Yankee Ribbons either, but those in the know tell me they are awesome. I just love my CF 4's ! Mine are the original ones, the most misunderstood speaker Klipsch ever made. They do all I want in a speaker, except they are possibly a bit too revealing of source and equipment, but a lot of that has to do with my smallish room. I will buy Khorns as soon as I get a place with corners. But they are going to have their hands full un seating the CF 4's ! I Love imaging, and a big, 3 dimensional soundstage, do your Khorns image ?

---------------- On 2/28/2003 11:15:43 AM dougdrake wrote: "So, to PWK's kid, I say do what you gotta do to make sure you survive, but still continue to have a high end product as well." I feel compelled to point out that Paul Klipsch is NOT PWK's son. He is a distant relative that never knew PWK for most of his life. DD ---------------- I learned something new ! Thank You for letting me know.

---------------- On 2/28/2003 1:05:34 AM AndyKub wrote: Well your post certainly makes me want to hear one! Especially since I already have the pre-amp. But as you say, It depends upon the speakers, and I only have the Khorns, which, even in your admission, match more nicely with tubes. and there are very few people as nice as Julius Siskinus,,its designer. Very true...what was your experience with him? ---------------- I have never tried a Parlando on Khorns, I just feel, based on my experience with Belles and La Scalas, that Tubes may be better,, but i never did A/B comparasion. I think the Parlando would be as good, and probably better than any solid state amp you could use. I go back with Julius 20 years. I had some Straethern Ribbon drivers that he modified by lowering the resonant frequency, allowing me to run 6 of them per side, full range ! Recently, when I was lucky enough to find the Parlando used, Julius completely up dated it, and went through it for about 250 dollars. I am fortunate, I have the OLD style Parlando, with the Larger heatsinks, before he changed it. Julius can place a larger transformer in the old style amps, and get 150 watts Pure Class A out of them ! At 100 watts, My Parlando is just loafing. Thats the advantage of the larger heatsinks. Julius is a wonderful person, a true Audiophile who loves music. He likes ribbon speakers, the Yankee Ribbon is his design, he licensed the technology. BTW, I once met Mark Levinson, back in 1981, he came out to Seattle where I used to live to visit Definitive Audio, my friends store. I asked him what the ultimate speaker was, and he told me Khorns ! He said you need to turn the tweeters Vertical, and use some Eq, he was using the Prototype of what was to become the Chello Audio Pallette ! Hows that !

---------------- On 2/17/2003 1:58:33 PM justin_tx_16 wrote: I still don't understand why Klipsch would pull out of a very successful relationship (as I understand it to have been) for another venture when you could keep Tweeter and just add on Best Buy. Also, will you not be able to purchase Synergy and ProMedia from the specialty A/V dealers? That is where I got most o fmy promedia's and our first synergy systems. ---------------- My friend works foir Sound Advice here in Florida, and Tweeter just Bought em ! He told me Tweeter ripped off B&W, so B&W pulled the line from Sound Advice when Tweeter bought em ! Perhaps Klipsch wants to actually get PAID ?? What a far fetched concept, EH ? Say La Ve, Sound Advice, and hello Best Buy ! Good riddance to Sound Advice anyway ! All they ever did was bad mouth Klipsch products anyhow ! Every time I strolled in a Sound Advice store, all they did was tell me how Klipsch sucked ! How I " Needed " Martin Logan ?? Good Riddance to Sound Advice and their 2 for 1 whoreing of Klipsch product. I shall not shed one tear, not one !

Does anyone remember the old star trek episode where Professor Daystrom instals a computer called M1 on the Enterprise ? The M1 computers prime function was to survive ! Hate to spoil the party, sports fans, but Klipsch must survive too ! I think its a good move for them, because god knows here in Florida, Sound Advice was bad mouthing them, whoring them out , 2 fer 1, etc. And ***NOLIA, I mean Magnolia, in Seattle wasnt any better ! Tweeter, the rip offs who purchased Sound Advice, ripped off B$W, so they freakin pulled the line from them, ha ha ! I think Best Buy will be just fine for Klipsch and for potential new customers. Lets face it guys, someones gotta pay the bills, and it aint us! We dont buy anything made lately anyway, so who are we to dictate Klipsch's strategy to survive. Get freakin real ! We prowl Ebay and Audiogon, looking for oil filled caps and PWK signatures, how long has it been since ANY of us have bought anything NEW from Klipsch ? EXACTLY ! So, to PWK's kid, I say do what you gotta do to make sure you survive, but still continue to have a high end product as well. Hire more good engineers, invest in Laser Interferometry, Anechoic chambers, etc. Now that EV is gone, find and hire their best engineers. Perhaps make Dr, Bruce Edgar a consultant ? Launch a campaign to sell the Horn to a new generation of Audiophiles, just as PWK did in his day. Educate the new generation about the laws of Physics, and proudly wear Bull S *** buttons around CES. Rent a huge room like Wisdom audio did, and let em hear a full blown Jubilee in all its glory. Go after the Asian and world wide market for state of the art Horn speakers, and dont give up nothing to any country. Return America to its position of greatness for horn compression drivers. Live and die by the Horn, obey the laws of Physics, just as PWK did. I met PWK when I was 16 at the Detroit Audio Show, in 1970. I remember his big Bull S*** button, and the time he spent with me showing his stuff. I was just a bored city kid, and he made an audiophile out of me. Klipsch must reach out to the next generation , just as PWK reached out to me, with kindness and through education. Klipsch must survive !! I support the move.

---------------- On 2/27/2003 3:16:36 AM AndyKub wrote: ka7niq, How does the Parlando sound compared to your Fisher SA? ---------------- depends on what speaker you use it on ! On the CF 4 version 1, its no contest, the Parlando smokes the Fisher, and the Fisher even has had its Caps all replaced with Sideral's ! Remember them ? But thats no suprise, I have never had any amp hang with a Parlando for long. I have owned Krell KSA 100, Aragon 4004, Bedini 25/25/ 100/100/ 1meg, Levinson ML1, etc. Recently we put the Parlando head to head against a the Kora tube amps, and it sounded better to me and everyone else present EXCEPT the Kora owner on a pair of VMPS RM 40's. The Fisher has its place, but not on CF 4,s ! Roy Delgados wonderful speakers need current for the big neo magnet driven dual 12" woofers that dip into 3 ohms! That was a lot of the problem with Roy's masterpiece, the CF 4 's ! People tried to drive em Klipsch style with puny receivers and small tube amps, and the dual low impedance 12's ran the puny little receivers out of current, and they clipped, and then the 2 inch K 63 neo driver let you hear it, and then they blamed the speaker ! The Fisher , which I just sold, is a good little amp. Stock, it has flabby bass, a rolled of high end, and a lush , wonderful midrange, full and rich ! Did some one say La Scala ?? It is the amp of choice for a la Scala, if its stock. However, with the new capacitors, the bass gets punchy, and the high end extends, at some cost to midrange purity. But, I would recommend it either way, especially for the money. Imaging also improved w/ cap change too. I really think its hard to beat tubes and SET amps on the La Scalas, Khorns, etc. Been there, done that, had fun. But for the CF 4, especially the originals, before the powers that be at Klipsch ruined Roy Delgados masterpiece, you need a ultra clean, high current amp, free of switching and thermal debiasing distortion, that says " I am the Boss " to your speakers, and has the muscle to back it up. With 208, 000 MFD of capacitance, and 16 output transistors the size of quarters per side, driven by 8 drivers, Parlando can deliver the goods. Combined with the original Cf 4's on a good recording, the results can be absolutely stunning. In a large room, the CF 4 - Parlando combo will Illuminate the whole room with an image that is shockingly 3 dimensional, with a clarity much like my old Quad 57's. But they are touchy speakers as to placement, cables, interconnects, DAC, etc. I could see why Klipsch had trouble with them, it has taken all of my 30 some years of Audio experience, and much trial and error to get them right, but man, what a reward ! These speakers were aimed at the High End Audiophile, guys like me. I want to thank Roy Delgado, PWK's protegee, for his gift to the Audio World. You succeeded Roy, and keep the faith my friend, there are many in the know Audiophiles out here that love your masterpiece, and have the equipment, perseverance, and experience to get out of it what you intended !

---------------- On 2/26/2003 5:13:22 PM easylistener wrote: My father has a Audire forte 250 amp and he called me the other night and asked me what it was worth. I didn't know. Any of you know? He is thinking of selling it. ---------------- The Forte is a very good, well designed solid state amp, the equal of most any other ab amp. It is true dual mono, low tim and negative feedback, and wide banded. It subscribes to Dr. Matti Otala's school of design, and is truly a "no nonesense" amp. I had one for years, then moved up to the Audire Parlando, a 95 lb pure class A monster ! The Forte should be worth 400 dollars if its in good shape w/ box, manual, etc. I saw one go on Audiogon for around that. I would highly reccommend the Forte for a budget amp, it is a real sleeper, and there are very few people as nice as Julius Siskinus,,its designer.

---------------- On 2/26/2003 5:13:22 PM easylistener wrote: My father has a Audire forte 250 amp and he called me the other night and asked me what it was worth. I didn't know. Any of you know? He is thinking of selling it. ----------------

I posted this over at the updating forum, not a lot of response there, suggested i post here. I have CF 4 version 1 w/ 5inch ports. These are wonderful speakers, in a large room. However, I am now in a small apartment and very close to them, and the voicing could be improved for this situation. I have bi amped them using amps on the horns having level controls, and no problem, I can easily re voice them by simply reducing the level controls of the amps driving the horns. I want to do this passively instead ! So, couldnt I just throw a resistor across the tweeter bi amp terminals only and single amp them ? there are 4 terminals on the back, 2 for woofer-mids, and 2 for the horn that crosses over at around 1500, so they say, but it seems to come in way sooner to my ears. The CF 4 is a very horn dominated sounding speaker, totally unlike my CF 3 version 2. The Version 2 CF 3 sounds like a vandersteen with balls. Its smooth, rich, warm, boomy, and images like no tomorrow. The CF 4 reminds me of my old quad 57 in some ways, and in a large room, with the right recordings and good everything else, can blow your mind. But it is aggressively voiced, too much so for this small room I am now in, so I want to temporarily tone it down a bit. Will using the resistor screw up the crossover point ? I want to leave everything else alone, just simply reduce the horns output a couple of db or so, maybe less, so how do i do it ? Thanks

---------------- On 2/24/2003 5:53:40 PM Ray Garrison wrote: I'd try mailing Al K. and tell him exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish. He might have a suggestion, though I dougt he's had any experience with that crossover. ---------------- Klipsch hasnt been much help either, it seems their engineering notes leave a bit to be desired ! I can do what I want using bi amping w/level controlled amps on the horns, but that adds unneeded complexity. I want to get a big screen, and I dont have room on top of big screen for a bunch of amps, etc. The CF 4's are a wonderful speaker, if the recording is wonderful, in a large room. They will float a wonderful soundstage, but they are voiced for a big room sitting far away. I now live in a small apartment, and just need to temporarily re voice them to better make them fit my less than optimum living arrangement.

---------------- On 2/19/2003 4:12:03 PM Cut-Throat wrote: I have finally completed the refinishing job on one of my Belles. Basically I tured a dark Oak Belle with Black Grill Cloth into a Light Oak Belle with Cane Colored Grill Cloth. I had to sand the entire finish off. I also re-wired the speaker with 16 gauge OFC Copper. What the hell - Still sounds the same though! I put on 3 coats of Satin Poly for better protection. (normally I would not finish a speaker with Poly, but these are so large that I felt they needed some added protection.) I really prefer the texture of an Oil Finish much better. Special thanks to HDBR Builder and Chris Robinson for advice on Finishing and Grill Cloth! Thanks Guys! Now I have to muster the strength to finish the next one! Should I put the Klipsch emblem on or leave it off? - Whadda think? ---------------- I think you should simply place the GR research emblem on the Belles Cut Throat ! Is that a Paradox, or what ??

I did the rope caulk, and took it off, sounded like **** on my CF 4's ! Now, my CF 4 is a 2 way with the big tractrix horn mid-tweeter horn and driver. They are asking this 2 inch driver to go from 700 to 20 k ! It actually crosses around 1500, but you can hear it come in much lower. perhaps the ringing in the plastic horn actually augments the response of the 2 inch aluminum dome neo magnet driver? I just gotta trust my ears, and it took away all the air, and the imaging of my speakers ? Perhaps the driver and horn are designed to work together, I dont know , just telling you my experience, for what iyts worth.

I have CF 4 speakers, the originals with 5 inch ports, version 1, and also have CF 3 version 2 w/ 3" ports. I am in a very small room, and on the better recordings, the CF 4 is wonderful, but it is voiced for a much larger space. Is it possible, and if so, HOW, to place a resistor across the horns Bi wire terminals, or should I go into the crossover, and if so, WHICH resistor do I change ? I have tried using a 4 channel amp w/ level controls, and this allowed me to do this electronically by adjusting the level of the amp channels hooked to the horn in a bi wire mode. IF I simply threw a resistor across the bi wire terminals of the horn in the single amp mode, would that do the trick, or would it change the crossover point ? Thanks for looking

---------------- On 2/3/2003 10:00:12 PM William F. Gil McDermott wrote: Okay, I was not my normal polite self. My post had an edge to it. Proj was correct to take me to task. Please accept my apology. BTW, are we speaking to Mr. Tucker? It looks like a ham call sign. Sometimes I get annoyed when someone posts a question to the effect of, "I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z, blindly and without any serious insight. Please give me all technical information on the merits of my course of action, the predicatable outcomes with four different variables, prices, and guarantees of performance, etc." As if we'd all done a Ph.D. thesis on the noodlings of any and all tinkerers. Whoops, the monster is coming out of me, again. I'm sure KA9 didn't quite mean it like that. Get back in the dungeon, I renounce my evil self. (Did ya ever see "Forbidden Planet"?) Back to the issue. I did some experimentation with an EV-1824 midrange driver some years ago. It is a bit similar to the midrange drivers used by Klipsch. I also had an LMS system and an improvised tube to measure results without a horn. One mod suggested by the Altec camp was to take out the bug screen on Altec drivers. It was described as a sure fire improvement. Measuring the EV unit, there was no change. Granted, it was not the Altec. I investigated the innerds of the 1824. There is a dome with a small hole in it, covered with fine cloth, behind the driver. I took that dome out and found the overall response to be worse. So I put it all back together and concluded that that hot rodders can't be trusted. Now I'll admit that my conclusions regarding the hot rodders was not scientific, and an overgeneralization. Perhaps the changes they made did improve things in their equipment. Still, I'm very skeptical unless someone has a pair of SPL graphs showing an improvement, or at least a difference. Anyone can say, "I did X, Y, and Z, and it sounds terrific." Further, I would not recommend a modification, myself, unless I can support it with before and after graphs. Now, I do advocate and support, very much, tinkering and experimentation (which are the same thing). It is the beginning of the scientific method. The results should be measured by technical instruments to avoid subjective bias, though. Yeah, I know, it is expensive. (This leads to a divison of the people giving reviews; those with tech equipment and those without.) One experiment being considered by KA9 was to put clay (Moretite) on the diaphragm, if I read correctly. Maybe there will be some merit to the results. None the less, it looked to me that KA9 was going to put a lot of goop on a delicate diaphragm and muck up the works. It seems contrary to good practice. Most designers are looking for the least massive of diaphragms. What is the moral thing to say? If you say "go for it" you've lead the guy down a path to, perhaps, ruining his hardware. If you have the time, spare parts, and money to do this, well enough. But it is hard to tell where someone is coming from. Again, I'm backing away from my curt and impolite response, and also explaining my own disappointments which caused it. I'm today reading about patent law. In some cases the inventor found an improvement by making modifications which were counter intuitive. Still, the results have to be be shown by an objective standard. So, I say, in retrospect, go for it, and let us know what you find. Gil, AB9BE, the tinkerer. Ka7niq is my ham call, the only one in 21 years, it was my novice, and now its an advanced call sign. I wasnt going to put moretite on the diapragms, i did put rope caulk on the horns though. I wanted to see if anyone had any experience damping the aluminum dome compression k 63 driver by adding lacquer and or epoxy to the aluminum, and/or placing foam and or felt/cotton behind the dome. I firmly believe all of us is smarter than one of us, and I was simply sharing what I was doing in the spirit of our hobby. As I stated, I love these speakers, and I want to make an already fine speaker even better. 73 ka7niq ----------------

I spoke to Parts, and he assured me they were only 17.00 dollars each? Someone posted this same thing on Audio Asylum, can someone set us straight ? How about it, St. Thomas of Chicago, patron saint of our Lady of the Horn, how much do these diaphragms really cost ? Anyone know? I am going to try and get Albert Von Schweikert to give me some damping he used on his damped aluminum diapraghms he commercially made. Let us damp the dome, and lets see what happens, that is, as long as they dont cost 872 dollars!

---------------- On 2/3/2003 5:50:35 AM TBrennan wrote: That's no prosound driver, not a serious one anyway. More along the lines of Gemini prosound, not JBL or EV. ---------------- With all due respect to my Irish Friend up in Chicago, this certainly is a pro sound driver TOM ! Dont forget, many of the EV engineers worked for Klipsch ! Don Keele for one! They brought their pro sound driver knowledge with them! People freak when they encounter a neo magnet, they are used to the " boat Anchor" drivers of days past! No, its not a beryllium dome TAD, but its a pro driver. I just want to make it better

---------------- On 2/3/2003 12:15:30 AM William F. Gil McDermott wrote: In my view, all these modications are ill advised. It is fair to say that the engineers who designed the components probably did not leave out all these modification for the sake of cutting corners. If some corners were cut, it is difficult to believe a home builder is going to find the magic modification to improve things. Gil ---------------- Well, the K 63 used in the larger Epics is a pro sound driver, and maybe they felt the benefits of putting some damping foam , or felt under the dome would be outweighed by the rough handling it would receive in a pro sound environment ? I have damped my plastic tractrix horns w/rope caulk, just one coat. It made a diffrence. Perhaps since it is a pro sound driver, they figured it would be equalized anyway, so why bother? Von Schweikert Audio used damping on Aluminum Dome tweeters to extend the response out and damp resonances. You are right though, it is going to be difficult for a home builder to try and improve on them, especially if you give up before you even try! I may not have all the nice test stuff, but I have my ears, and if I screw up a diaphragm, so what? 35 dollars gets me 2 delivered to my door! I have 2 pairs of Epics, diffrent series, and they are voiced TOTALLY different from one another. The CF 4 series one is the large Epic w/ 2 12' woofers and Horn . It has pro sound voicing, very much in your face type sound. I have a small room, and the voicing is all wrong for me. The horn in the CF 4 dominates its sound. The CF 3 uses 2 10 inch woofers w/ the same k-63-kn driver and tractrix horn. It is a totally diffrent speaker. It souns very much like a vandersteen w/ balls ! It is warm , rich and musical w/tremendous imaging, it does not sound like a horn speaker at all. I love them both, and yes, I have owned Bells, La Scalas and old Heresys. I dont like them, at all. I stumbled on the Epics by accident, the CF 3, and loved them. I spoke to Roy Delgado of Klipsch, told him how much I liked the Epics, and he suggested the CF 4, but the original versions! It seems the powers that be at Klipsch didnt like them, and made Roy redisign them to sound more like the old Klipsch. You know whats funny ?? Guess what Roy Delgado has at home ?? OLD , original CF 4's ! Kinda makes you wonder, dont it? Roy could have anything he wants and he has CF 4's. I can tell you that I have been an audiophile for 30 years, and I love the both of these speakers. I love them enough to try and take them to a level impossible to do in a reasonably priced affordable speaker. A properly set up original CF4 driven properly w/ good a good recording will drop your jaw. But, they are totally unforgiving, and you need tone controls for ****ty recordings. The CF 3's, version 2 will always sound pretty pleasant, but they will never drop your jaw either. Honestly, the original CF4 can sound Electrostatic like, and kick holy *** too. I never got that kind of sound out of La Scala, Belle, or Old Heresey. But maybe I did something wrong ? Anyway,,I am just rambling on, thanks for your reply!

Have 2 pairs of Epic s, and I wannt to damp the plastic Tractrix horn, or replace it with the fiberglass one from the Epic version 3. Also, I have the KN 63 kn 2" compression driver apart, and to me, it needs some felt under the aluminum dome, on top of the magnet, whadda ya think? How about filling up the whole inner dome chamber between the magnet and dome with dacron like they do on soft domes ? How about damping the aluminum dome itself with damping compound ?? Someone told me to be careful, as these diaphragms are expensive ?? I am all ears asa to which direction to proceed in

Better hope the woofer aint bad brother, Klipsch aint got no more ! I would contact trey cannon in tech support, perhaps he can help. I own CF 3 and CF 4's, and I love them, they are well worth fixing IF, and ONLY if they are version one or version 2 with the neo woofer magnets. Trey will help you, perhaps the woofers can be repaired?

Want to buy CF 4 speakers call chris at 813 655 8777 or email ka7niq@yahoo.com

Looking to buy pair of CF 4 speakers Call chris at 813 655 8777 or email ka7niq@yahoo.com

Looking for a pair of cf 4 epics call me at 813 655 8777 or email ka7niq@yahoo.com Chris