Strabo

Bill, or anyone, Can you post a link to the THX specification for DVD's? All I have found so far is the equipment must be able to do 105db without clipping. Thanks

Sorry to hear about your disappointment. I've never heard the thing, but could you maybe be more specific into what sounds so bad? Most of your complaints seem to be about features rather than performance (see below). Disclaimer, I have no interest in Outlaw audio or any other manufacturer. I received the 990 processor yesterday, I just finished setting it up, and I must say I 'm not impressed. The thing sounds like an FM radio station compared to my Harman Kardon 525 receiver. I'm really disappointed, I should have suspected it. I posted many topics before ordered the thing asking for info on the musicality of this thing, no one on the Outlaw forum or other forums can give me a direct answer. Then, I read the review from one idiot claiming that the thing sounds better than his Lexicon MC1. (#!#@*!#! what a big fat lie!). It's an entry level pre. Sorry if you believed otherwise. It will cost me another $60 returning the thing back + I won't get back the extra 3% my credit card charged me to do the USD/CND conversion, plus I'm wondering whether I will get the $280 (UPS Custom charge +GST/PST) the Canadian customs charged me. I understand your frustration but how is this Outlaw's fault? First, I noticed, the HK volume range is around -76dB to +10dB the 990 is -76dB to +8dB. With the HK in stereo my volume level is usually set to -35dB (-28dB for moderate listening). With the 990 even at -19dB the thing is nowhere near the level the HK(-28dB) put out. This is a function of the output level of the pre at a given digital read-out on the display combined with the required input of the amp to hit a given power. Variances like this will occur with every integrated, or Pre/Amp combo on the market because each manufacturer will use different combinations of amplification. In other words, it's only a label change on the volume knob. A rose by any other name is still a rose. 95 dbs in room by any volume setting is still 95 dbs in room. I'm sure that you could send the pre back and have them adjust the digital display so that it goes to 11. And, the subwoofer output (With the tone->bass set to +6) compared to the HK is not even half of the HK bass output. So, what is the point? As long as you can adjust it to make the spl from your sub a smooth transition to your mains it doesn't matter what is shown on the display. Zero in your system will be different that zero in anyone else's system or room. If there isn't enough adjustment built in that you can't get a smooth transition, then there may be a problem. Don't forget, you can adjust the volume on your sub and the crossover setting if incorrect will have an effect on this too. Third, the sound is so flat compared to the HK525 even in the upsample mode. I'm not sure what upsampling is in this situation. Expanding on what the pre is "upsampling" and how you expect this to magically improve the sound might help. Fourth, this thing for a pre/pro is huge. It is almost twice the size of my HK 525 receiver, but only weights a third the weight of the HK. Again, so? As pointed out, you are expecting the weight of a pre to out weigh an integrated? Send it to a local shop. I'm sure they could add a lead bottom to the unit to even it out. The two channel amp on my mains weighs in at 70lbs. So? How does weight effect the sound? Some would argue that my amp sounds like crap, but that has nothing to do with how it weighs in. I won't call the $1100 price tag a rip off but it does not worth that much if you take into account an HK 635 can be bought for around $700. And you can find an clock radio at Wal-Mart for $29.99. It's a better deal based on this logic. Especially considering it goes to 11. The only things I like about this unit are the Auto setup feature, and the easy setup. Remote control is also good. Why? What's good about it? Does it make it sound better? Is the remote easy to use or is it good because it's heavy? Anyone who really thinks of putting this thing in the same league with the Anthem, Lexicon or for god sake a high end receiver such as HK needs some real professional help. It's also 1/2 to 1/3 the price of an Anthem or BK. It's that price because they probably didn't put as much engineering into it, and probably use cheaper parts. Why should it sound as good as something 2 to 3 times the price? ---------------- I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to get to an explanation of why this thing is as bad as you say. Please give some particulars about what sounds bad, and what functions do not work. So far you have only complained about the settings without explanation of whether they actually work or not.

---------------- On 6/24/2005 3:05:39 PM Bret_Salyer wrote: So what is your point? All I heard was sarcasm. Is power delivery not important? I'm new and shopping for an amp, please explain it to me. Bret ---------------- Power has almost nothing to do with how an amp sounds. Unfortunately the marketing hype wattage wars lead people to believe otherwise. You can have one great sounding amp that only puts out 10 watts, and another great sounding amp that puts out 1,000. The only thing the wattage gives you is more decibels. As to which one sounds better for your listening level is up to you. Conversely, you can have one great sounding 10 watt amp and a screechy boat anchor that puts out 100 watts, and visa versa. It's up to you to decide what sounds good to your ears.

I hope they don't owe Klipsch for receivables. Ultimate Electronics closes half their stores. http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=5&sid=157945 THORNTON, Colo. (AP) -- Consumer electronics retailer Ultimate Electronics Inc. will lay off more than 25 percent of its work force and close nearly one-half its stores as part of a bankruptcy reorganization. Ultimate received a default waiver from its lender which provided most of the reorganization financing, according to a Securities and Exchange Commission filing on Wednesday. Ultimate was in default on that loan. A telephone message seeking additional comment was not returned Thursday. The announcement occurred about a month after Mark Wattles, 44, former head of the Hollywood Entertainment video chain, was named chairman and CEO of Ultimate. Ultimate, which operates 62 stores in 14 states, said it would close 30 stores in Iowa; Kansas City, Mo.; South Dakota, Texas and Utah. The closures will occur by June 30. About 965 employees will be affected the closures, including 65 central office employees. It plans to continue to operate 32 stores in Arizona; Kansas; Minnesota; St. Louis, Mo.; Nevada; New Mexico and Oklahoma. The filing did not mention stores in Colorado, which operate under the SoundTrack name, or in Idaho and Illinois. Previously, Ultimate said it would close three stores, including one in suburban Highlands Ranch, where leases had been set to expire. Roger Heuberger, president of Progress Retailers Organization, a buying group for smaller electronics retailers, said he believes Ultimate ran into problems when it began to expand rapidly. He praised the move to close stores in markets where Ultimate has not done well. "I think what goes on in some of these other markets is that there are some strong regional TV and appliance stores that make those markets harder than they might look like from the outside," he said. Ultimate filed for Chapter 11 on Jan. 11, one day after Wattles spent $4.4 million to acquire a controlling interest and loaned the company $5.6 million. Some shareholders led by Atticus Capital LLC asked the bankruptcy court for permission to establish an official equity committee after Ultimate said its reorganization was unlikely to result in value for common stockholders.

---------------- On 3/23/2005 9:19:09 AM minn_male42 wrote: ultimate electronics here in the minneapolis area always has a room setup with a full RF-7 system - good news so far.... but the empahsis is totally on the home theater presentation.... they always have sports playing or some tv show on... ---------------- Last year I spent a long time auditioning quite a few speakers and that was my experience with UE also. I tried a few Ultimate Electronics stores and what really bothered me was hearing 4 RF-7 driven by some rinky-dink entry level receiver. I bet they had more money invested in the stupid screen for the front projector than they did in amplification. I'd be surprised if they sell any 7's with that set-up. It sounded bad, distorted and tinny, but hey, the picture sure looked nice.

I had a very similar set-up, Denon 4802 driving Forte's, for a short time which I will explain later. Lots of great suggestions here. Especailly, dial in the phase on the subs, which can be very tricky with two subs. Try it with just one sub to see if the second is canceling the bass in the listening position. Double check the phase on the mains. See if you can borrow a different DVD player, but I doubt that will make much difference since you are mainly using it as a transport. The Denon 3910 can be had for less. Paid under $900 for mine with the factory warranty. See if you can home audition an outboard amp. Do some research on room treatments. Back to the 4802. Two years ago I had an older Yamaha with Forte's and loved the tone but had upgraditus. After some short auditioning (in store only), too short really, I brought home a 4802. For the first day or two I marveled at the detail but noticed that I couldn't listen to my beloved Forte's for more than 20 minutes. This went on for a few weeks while I tryed to convince myself that the Denon needed to break-in, the system needed better placement, needed a better DVD player, needed better wiring, needed a softer room, yadda yadda yadda. Three weeks in and listening above 75dbs caused serious ear pain. I actually had inner ear pain when not listening. Finally I decided that the 4802 was the cause of all of my problems and took it back (with in my 30 day return policy) to exchange it for something better. Best move I've made. After the short time (4 weeks) the 4802 was in my system I can easily say that I have nothing nice to say about it, including the clumsy battery eating remote. To me, your options are keep the Denon and change everything else, or keep everything else and replace the Denon.

---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:54:24 PM minn_male42 wrote: i can see the following comments: "overglorified (mis)-information" "miss guided information" "miss guided application" I still stand by those statements. Not one of them says that the software is wrong. "overglorified" translated, overused and over hyped, "miss guided" translated, used improperly. ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:54:24 PM minn_male42 wrote: as a renter, i cannot treat my walls with wall treatments.... and i know that if i was still married - my wife would never allow wall treatments in her living room.... And that is my fault how? I am a renter and happily married, sharing a living room slash HT that includes room treatments. It's not as hard as you might think. ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:54:24 PM minn_male42 wrote: BTW - in my first response i ignored your reference to Bill and myself as exhibiting..."plain stupidity".... i can see why you stopped coming into this forum if you feel the need to insult people... (thank you for your mature comments) ---------------- Please re-read my previous post. I did not reference anyone with that quote. In fact, I did not mention you or Bill until two paragraphs later. If you felt offended then by all means please re-read it (oh the irony). I should have known better than to post in here again. Like the rest of my points Russ, you will probably twist this around and take it as a personal insult when it really isn't. I give up. Good luck to all of you.

---------------- On 2/8/2005 10:59:49 AM minn_male42 wrote: edited out the sales brochure. ---------------- Thanks Russ for making my point. Where in my previous post did I say that these things do not work? I didn't. In fact I made it a point that they do some good. My problem with them is the application of room correction software. For example, yes, I use a parametric EQ on my sub to help tame a bass hump that my room creates. All it does in attenuates the level around 47hz +/-6hz by 3dbs at the center point. The EQ is the last resort because, as Grif explained, it cannot fix everything. The laws of physics are not changed by a fancy EQ. I use it knowing that there is a null created somewhere else that I can live with. First is room treatment, followed by speaker placement, which also dictates the treatment. Get those right then add room correction if necessary which should be minimal. As a pricing analyst in retail, I can guess why all those hardware manufacturers adding this software to their equipment. It's called sales. Add whatever gimmick that will separate people from their money. It isn't unethical in this case because they are adding value to the unit. If it is a value that the consumer thinks they want then they will vote with their checkbooks. Unfortunately what most people miss is that this is the lazy way out and the consumer will not reap the full benifit without doing the first two steps properly. Plus, as pointed out, they could actually do more harm to their equipment than good to the sound.

I haven't posted on the klipsch forum for quite some time but thought this would be a good teaching moment to expain why. It is threads like this that really do a disservice to klipsch. The vigorous fighting using overglorified (mis)-information to validate certain peoples purchases is plain stupidity. In my case, this fervor drove me away from the HT forum and into the two channel and architectural forums where I learned so much more about good sound. I appreciate what I have learned from the many helpful and knowledgeable people of this forum and occasionally I come back to see what they have to say. Over time the arguing with miss guided information drove me to look elsewhere to learn. I am not saying that the information provided is wrong. It is probably correct, but with a miss guided application. In a way, keep it up. I am much happier now that I have been driven away and I bet there are others in the same situation but this does not help your cause or Klipsch as a company. Grif (and others), I sympathize with your pain in fighting the good fight to educate people about how to fix the illness (room) instead of the symptom (sound caused by the room). Also, it is the final sound that matters. I listen to music not measurements. MN Male and Mr. McGoo. I'm glad that you think you are happy with your set-ups but it sounds like you are trying to convince yourselves of something that you do not believe. Your arguments sound like justifications of money spent rather than enjoyment of the sound. To quote Daniel von Recklinghausen, "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing." I could care less how things "measure" because I don't listen to measurements. If you are happy by correcting the symptoms of the problem then great but do not shout down the people that are trying to educate others about how to fix the actual problem.

Amazing score Thebes. That's the stuff of dreams. If you are interested in a PAS 3 I have one I could let you have at a good price. It's been tweaked a bit by the previous owner. Only has balance, volume, and selector, no tone controls anymore (knobs are there they just aren't hooked to anything). Craig would know more about what was done to it. Send me an e-mail if you're interested.

---------------- On 1/15/2005 4:26:46 PM Piranha wrote: No, it couldn't be smilin. He already has one. ---------------- Sure looks like smilin. Look through his feedback. Who else would be scarfing up all those gold CD's. Not to mention enough 6922 tubes to open his own store.

Nothing to see here.

Would it be a bad idea to split up the Forte? By that I mean, remove the horns from the cabinet and reseal the cabinet with some plywood. Then pull the screen down lower, to the woofer, and mount the horns above the screen pointing down to the listening position. Just a thought.

Just make sure it has 6 analog inputs and you will be fine. When new formats come out and you update your source player you will always be able to use the analog outputs to access whatever new fangled specifications they come up with. But make sure the reciever is able to pass the 5.1 analog inputs without doing any processing.

Bump/update. I found the original box for this.

Rear.

Drivers.

Selling my KV-2 center channel which is in great condition concidering the junk I've seen on e-bay lately going for $160+. Priced to sell to someone here who will appreciate it, $125 plus shipping (should be no more than $25). Local pick-up is fine too (Twin Cities area, Minnesota). I do not have the original box but will double box it with care. Cashier's Check or Paypal ok. E-mail me with questions, Kyhl I will be selling my OO Forte II's soon. They aren't ready to go yet but feel free to e-mail me with questions. They will be local pick-up only, but I can help with delivery with-in a few hours drive. More pictures on the KV-2 to follow.

---------------- On 10/17/2004 10:17:32 AM Q-Man wrote: Strabo, The crossover selections begin at 25Hz and increase in 5 Hz increments. What speakers and amps are you using the Anthem with? Have you ever used another AV/processor before the Anthem, or did you move up from a receiver? ---------------- I had a Denon 4802 for a month before the AVM-20. Before that was an old Yamaha pro-logic receiver. I did listen to an NAD seperates system that was considerably more expensive than the Anthem gear and I really liked it but I couldn't stretch my budget that far. At the time the AVM-20 had the best features and better sound than anything I had in the past not to mention that I got a good price on it from my local B&M store ($2.5k two years ago). IIRC, the 30 is based on the 20 but with a faster computer for the display and switching, and the display is updated to match the colors and layout of their new Statement pre. I originally used an Anthem PVA-5 for the amp. But in all my auditioning I made the mistake of listening to better sounding systems and was trying to get that sound out of Anthem's entry level amp. So next I picked up a used Lexicon NT512 (made by Bryston) and that was/is a great amp but still not what I was looking for so I dove into tubes for the mains. I auditioned a set of Quicksilver KT-88 mono's for a week and liked the sound tonally, but I couldn't get them to image so they went back. A few months ago (6?) I picked up an AES Superamp DJH and the imaging is much better, but the top end isn't as clean as I'd like. Cleaner than any of my previous SS amps but not exactly what I'm looking for. Still good enough to keep around for a while but I don't see it as my long term answer. The Lexicon is gone now and the PVA-5 handles surround duty with the giant 35wpc Superamp running the mains (for now).

My tone controls are set to bypass on the Anthem, and the PAS 3 is wired to bypass them.

---------------- On 10/13/2004 4:43:45 PM Q-Man wrote: The Anthem AVM 30 offers digital bass management for the 5.1 analog inputs. This is a first for SACD's and DVD-Audio. I think this is a feature that I could really get into. ---------------- Since you mentioned this one. The Anthem offerers crossover points in 5hz increments. I don't remember the minimum setting but I think it is somewhere around 30hz (I can check) so you can bump it up 5hz at a time to 120hz. This is configurable for each channel (F/C/S/R). I think the biggest plus is the parametric eq included in the Anthem. It allows the user control over bass humps caused by the room by selecting the width and the center point of the eq in 1hz increments and attenuation in .5db increments. Unfortunately it only gives you one setting so if your room has too peaks then your SOL. I think it's great. Using a Rat Shack meter (using corrections from the internet) I have my sub set flat (+/- 1db in room) from 30hz - 90hz by using the built in eq. Unfortunately my sub starts rolling off below 30hz. It plays to at least to 25 but it's down a few dbs. As you mentioned, it does offer digital bass management for the 5.1 analog but I don't know how well it works. I haven't made the time to try it because I'm happy not using it. I can't get past the sticking point that it adds an extra ADC/DAC conversion that doesn't need to be there. I'm just glad that they allow it to be bypassed.

---------------- On 10/13/2004 11:38:23 AM firefighter wrote: ...if I had to guess clipping would probably start around -10 as its final destination would be -1 or -0. Either way I'm not going there, so in short I quess I do have it figured out. It's fun to know you have this evil level in your system to where you just wont go. Jack. ---------------- That is relative to the manufacturer too. My volume goes to +20. I do most of my listening around -30. In this case I would think that 0 is zero gain, but who knows for sure because the front L/R can also be adjusted behind the scenes by +/-10. FWIW, the highest I've hit was -7 on DSOTM once for kicks. The system sounded great with plenty of steam left but the room was so overloaded it was rediculous. My room overloads at about 90db and I was probably close 105.

I apologize if my comments seemed harsh, it was meant as humor. But it was also meant to be constructive. The room where any system resides is a major factor in the sound quality, as much or more than any speaker or component decision. Since the room cannot change then you would probably be better off using a cone speaker that is voiced warmer but with that you will lose dynamics and IMO realism. Most everyone's systems are a collection of trade-offs. I have room problems too. I share a HT/music room with a main living space, and the room is a bad proportion. One of the tricks I have been experimenting with is to temporarily hang acoustic panels in the room when using the system. The panels come down and the room returns to normal when finished. You might want to talk to Artto to see if that would be feasible.

---------------- On 10/12/2004 5:53:18 PM rf3iicrazy wrote: Strabo I'd be intersted in this LP if you can lead me in the right direction. Tom ---------------- Tom and Gary, I should look for some more releases on that label (Gale Maximum Fidelity Recording Limited). The one that I have is (now that I'm home and can see it) titled Beethoven Piano Sonatas Op 53 & Op 57. Waldstein and Appassionata respectively. Played by Peter Frankl. The release number is GMFD 1-76-005 Stereo with a 1977 copywrite date in the liner notes. It comes as an individual LP in a box like the Mofi UHQR's. I found a link to one through a google seach which can be found below. http://vinylmatters.com/usedvinyl.htm (third from the bottom) If you are interested, the inserts (since they say "booklet and all inserts") should include an envelope for warrenty registration, an 8 1/2 x 11 warranty registration form, a detail of the warranty, and an eight page booklet on heavy paper (like a big program) detailing information on the work, a Frankl bio, and info on the recording technique. Given what I paid for mine, that is a pretty good price too.

My reference LP torture test is a Gale recording of Beethoven piano sonata's. This one is literally a "jaw dropper". Everyone I've played it for listens with their mouth wide open (it's kinda funny). Everyone has said, "that sounds like a real piano". Of course my response is, "isn't that the point"? Just a guy playing piano, no orchestra, and you are doing good if your turntable and amplification can handle it. It comes with a sheet warning you that if you hear distortion on the album then you have a problem in your playback system. I still have one part of this LP that my system has problems reproducing. I have upgraded everything but my speakers (TT, phono stage, cartidge, interconnects, pre-amp, and a few amps) since I purchased this LP and each upgrade makes it play a little bit better. Some day I will be able to spin it perfectly.