colterphoto1

---------------- On 8/13/2004 10:16:03 PM SCOOTERDOG wrote: 2 words...Acoustical Output ---------------- uh, gee, I was only quoting the manufacturers specifications regarding your two previous points, efficiency and 3db down point. My argument is that the RC7 is not as far off on those two specs as you might think. The beloved Heresy, however certainly is quite a bit off on these points. If db/watt/meter is not a direct measure of 'Acoustical Output', then what is???? How do you guys use a Heresy (as center channel) to keep up with LaScalas, use the pre out of your receiver into a 300 watt amp so the 'acoustical output' is consistent across the front? there's a HUGE difference between 104db and 96 db! Please reread my previous posts, I'm not entirely out in the weeds regarding this timbre thing either, just asking whether or not other speaker characteristics are not also important. Not to be troublesome, but if timbre matching is so all-important, then why do so many 'heritage' front-liners use other speakers or (gasp) Reference speakers as rear speakers? In today's modern Digital Dolby theatre, aren't ALL speakers supposed to have the same efficiency/response/ TIMBRE??????? Movie directors pan sounds front to rear as well as left to right, don't they? (don't mean to sound like an ad for THX here, but isn't that where we're heading- IDENTICAL speakers in all corners of the room, no matter what?!)

My boss at our old PA company made new hires do the following story problem. If you have a pair of Klipsch LaScalas hooked up to Crown DC300, how many Bose 901 cabinets and how many thousands of watts would it take to equal the maximum decibel level?

---------------- On 8/13/2004 5:36:55 PM D-MAN wrote: The issue with adding too much insulation is that it can over-damp the back chamber up to appear to the driver that the available back chamber volume is upto 1.4 times the actual volume, and PWK calculated the back chamber volumes pretty closely to about 15-20% of the theoretical optimum volume required. Undersizing to those values effectively raises the lower Fc of the respective driver a few Hz. from optimum. His "LITTLE BASTARD" patent discusses this and how he arrived at his values and why. The Belle and La Scala are also slightly undersized and MAY benefit to a degree having a lower Fc by adding a little insulation to the back chamber. Now the caviat on this is that too much insulation will muffle the bass rather than optimize it. It essentially causes un-equal excursion of the cone. " You're BANG ON with this one D-man! I think what's happening is that a woofer housing loosely filled with insulation appears like denser air or a larger cabinet to the woofer, therefore changing the tuning somewhat. Wonder what would happen if I 'stuffed' my Cornwalls?????HMMMMMM Michael

---------------- On 8/12/2004 11:34:31 AM SCOOTERDOG wrote: "Besides the RC7 will Not keep up with a La Scala no matter how many times you tell yourself it does. First off it is only a 2 way system and is 6db down in efficiency. It may be rated down to 45hz but at what output. " Okay, I'll bite. You're correct, RC7 doesn't keep up to LaScala, but does match Cornwalls pretty closely. RC7 per Klipsch literature is 98db/1 watt with low freq response 45Hz +/-3 db Cornwall per Klipsch lit is 98.5 db/1watt with low freq response 38Hz +/- 5db LaScala slightly louder at 104db/1 watt but worst response of 45Hz +/- 5db Looks like a pretty even match-up to me, plus with identical amp power and using my receivers test tone and db meter, I must tweak the center channel down from 100% to about 95% for most sources. The RC7 CAN keep up with all but the largest Heritage lineup. How the heck is a Heresy supposed to be used as a center in an 'all Heritage Theatre' Heresy is only 96db/1watt and response is 50 Hz +/- db, so it's far worse than RC7, yet gets recommended all the time as a center channel speaker. worse yet the Heresy's dispersion is 102degrees, hardly what I'd want as a center when trying to localize sounds for HT use.

thanks for the real definition of timbre. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I do find this interesting as this timbre-matching is a concept I'm evidentally having trouble with. If timbre as defined is a set of qualities outside of pitch and volume, then what are those qualities that give a speaker 'voice' . I would argue that anything the speaker adds outside of the pure input is this quality. Would distortion and harmonics be a large part of this? If that is the case, then the speaker(s) in question are indeed adding 'coloration' to the source signal. If our goal in hi-fidelity is to be as true as possible to the source, then how much difference can there really be in the timbre of two different high-quality speakers of the same manufacture? Of course this characteristic of timbre is as impossible to measure as it is difficult to define. I've heard arguements on this board that you shouldn't use combinations like RF3 and RC3 because of timbre mismatch. Those speakers are made of very siimilar, if not identical drivers, crossover, and cabinet dimensions, yet that combination is found to be unpleasing? Is the purist perspective that you must use exactly identical drivers in identical cabinets at the cost of all other speaker characteristics or else suffer the dreaded 'timbre mismatch'? With regard to dispersion and transient response characteristics, I agree they are not part of the 'timbre' makeup, I was merely asking the rhetorical question that aren't there other characteristics specific to center channel speakers in HT setups that are also important, possibly more so than a perfect timbre match? Keep working with me gang, I'll get this eventually. Michael- grinning at his stupidity/stubborness

yeah, there is some weird acoustical phenomena where bass builds up along the walls and the corners of a room. This is usually where acoustical treatment comes into play (see artto's posts in Archetictural Forum). You probably don't want to go to this trouble in your smallish room, so yes, experiment with speaker and listener placement the best you can. Sub placement will be critical, just a foot movement can make a huge difference. Good listening!

bump- anybody else?? I'll begin compiling all the drawings, photos, etc soon. Does anybody have any old saved 'threads' on this topic that might have a few other ideas? Thanks for the input. Michael

thanks for the test info. not be belabor the point (which I'm losing anyway), but if Timbre (which I would define as the frequency smoothness and coloration) of a speaker is so critical to match, then isn't that an admission that our beloved Klipsch speakers, whatever genre, are not as smooth of response as we would like and that they do add a coloration to the sound source? I realize that there is no 'ideal' speaker/room combination (well maybe artto has one) that outputs exactly what is input, but geeeez fellas, can you really tell differences? I am an ex sound engineer, so methinks I have a pretty good set of ears in terms of mixing capability, picking out frequencies, etc. Maybe I just need to be exposed to more and different systems. I recently moved and its amazing how different a system sounds in a new room, yet our ears adjust to this newness in short order. I still have trouble with the theory that this timbre match is more critical than transient response, horizontal dispersion, etc. For instance, would a center channel LaScala even come close to THX specs? (not that is the end all). Well, I'm rambling again, but try to help me out here. Thanks, Michael

I've taken enough heat on this topic that I'm going to ask my friend IndyKlipschFan, to bring over a heresy or another cornwall so I can A/B that setup with my RC7. I'll upgrade to a Dolby Digital receiver for an accurate test as well. Does anyone out there have any particular movies that would help accentuate the timbre mismatch between my Cornwalls and RC7. I'm guessing anything with slow pans across the front soundstage would be best. Much appreciated. Michael

Frz, What I am referring to is that in PWK's day, there was no discreet center channel with the directionality needed for today's modern home theatre setups. Just because the Klipsch founder used a Belle, LaScala, or other cabinet for an 'electrically-derived' third channel is a far cry from our needs for a specifically engineered center/dialog speaker today. I am very pleased with my two-channel setup using Cornwalls, and equally happy using a modern RC7 center channel speaker in conjunction with them for HT use. No, I'm not Dolby DIgital yet and maybe it will make a huge difference with the capabilities of that system to localize sounds LCR, or anywhere in between the three mains. If so, I gladly swallow my words and will trash the RC7 before I will give up my Cornwalls. I just think that the directionality and crispness (transient attack, if you will) of the RC is far superior to that of a Heresy or LaScala. Others will, of course, differ. BTW Roger (INdyKlipschFan) point well taken, I've GOT to get a digital receiver! Thanks for the kick in the pants. Michael

definitely CORNWALL all the way.

Ohh, this is going to be a goooood one... Cornwalls- Mains/ HT L/R RC7- HT centre RB3II Maple- HT surrounds ksb1.1 (4) + ksc-c1 +ksw12 = mini bedroom theatre system ksb1.1 (pr) gallery/showroom ksb1.1 (pr) back patio ( I just love those little plastic boxes) k....ceiling (pr) will be installing in kitchen area

I've always been of the opinion that 'timbre' matching is irrelevant in the HT/2ch system debate. When watching HT, the center does most of the work, when in 2 ch mode it is inop. I use a RC7 (specialty center-channel speaker) with my Cornwalls. It keeps up efficiency wise, and the 'timbre' difference when listening to HT is not a factor in my mind. I'd much rather have this setup than watch HT with a center channel speaker such as LaScala or heresy that was never intended to be a center channel speaker. Others will disagree. michael

That rabbit's a killer... Go on, chop off it's head... but the fangs....the claws.... LOOK AT THE BONES!

Danny, Just don't let the 'tech talk' overwelm your love of the music. I've got a friend who got into collectibles (gold records, autographed guitars, etc) Now he hardly ever really listens to the music he used to really enjoy. Michael

Great suggestions Richard and HootingMonkey! I'd use it to DOUBLE the size of my music collection! How? I'd get a new Stanton Stylus for my Technics turntable(s). I just moved and can't believe how many LP's I've either saved since new (those teenage years when I used to score an LP, 'soundguard' it, record to cassette and then store it away. Plus those weird collectibles I've scored at garage sales and from friends over the years. Probably have 1000, more than the CD's iv'e scored to date, many NOT duplicates. Like the ideas of banana plugs for speakers, spl meter, etc. Very creative group! Michael

let's get simple with this. RCA audio (lets call it radio shack), RCA Monster, Composite Video, Subwoofer 'coax' ARE ALL SHIELDED cables. They are all coaxial design (one signal carrying cable surrounded by a shield). A balanced cable would have two signal carrying cables inside a shield. The only difference is the mechanical build of the cables, ie solid vs stranded conductor, type of shielding, material of non-conductive cable parts. They all carry signal both ways (arrows on a cable- what snake oil!) For a signal cable for your subwoofer, I'd just get a GOOD GRADE RCA audio cable, anything else is just good $$ spent on marketing IMHO. Others will undoubtedly disagree. If you can hear the difference in a blind A/B test, be my guest, spend all the $$$ you can afford to blow. Michael

Hi Eugene, I enjoy your descriptions of music on it's own terms. IMHO, too many Forum members get caught up in the technicalities of the equipment and forget the soul of the music. Glad things are sounding good for you these days. I take it you got the room bumps straightened out. What are you using for outboard amp? I like my Yamaha receivers, but would like to give my Cornwalls a little more breathing room without going the $$$$ tube route (sorry to the purists in the crowd) Michael

---------------- On 8/8/2004 9:53:24 AM Danny in San Diego wrote: I just got a pair of Cornwall IIs on e bay and I'd like some suggestions on an amp. I have a Jolida 801A which has many nice qualities about it but has nowhere near enough low end. I then hooked my Cornwalls to my old Yamaha natural sound solid state. Much more bass and power but loss of mid and upper tone and soudstage. I can hear the potential in the Cornwalls but I need the right match. I love the mid and upper range qualities of tubes but I also need plenty of low end. Could I just replace my standard Jolida tubes and get more bottom? Or do I need to go in another direction altogether? Any suggestions? ---------------- WOW, this one got long-winded in a hurry. I'm going to go out on a limb here and try to respond to Danny's question in my own simplistic style. First, welcome to the Forum and congrats on your purchase of Klipsch Cornwalls. They are a great speaker design and should serve you very well for years to come. Personally, I've never gone the tube route, although I understand the love of that genre of gear and it's sound. Is is possible that your difficulty is one of room acoustics, speaker placement or eq? Generally, owners of the Cornwalls place them on the long wall of the listening room and 'toe in' the speakers quite a bit to keep the 90 degree horizontal dispersion off of the side walls, blurring the soundstage. Make sure speakers are in-phase when you switch amps. If, as it has been suggested, you are obtaining the desired amount of bass with your ss yammie with the use of Loudness and Bass controls, you might consider that these controls usually work in the upper bass regions over a fairly broad range, boosting frequencies other than those you wish to adjust. If that's the case, you might stick with the yammie and add an equalizer. I've had very good luck with a dual 10 band Audio Control patched into my Yamaha RXV850's pre in/out jacks. You can really smooth out room response with such a system. Good listening with whatever works for you! Michael

Sounds a bit like my predicament. I knew I would be getting a new home for about 2 years, so every time I saw something Klipsch on sale or clearance, I BOUGHT IT! Now my home looks like a dealership. Got 4 pairs of ksb1.1's (hey at $115 a pair, what a deal), matching ksc-c1 for mini-theatre, 2 pair ceiling, RB3II maple veneer, etc...as well as the Mighty Cornwalls and RC7! what a mess! I'll eventually figure out what to put in which room. My point is that won't you eventually use nearly everything? (except maybe extra centre HT speakers)? If you love yer old KV's, hey, put em in the den, garage, 2nd bedroom, etc. Why give away good speakers that work? I'd definitely stay with the RF and RB series for your main HT system, since that is the only series you can easily purchase 'matches' for. Definitely get a matching centre speaker for that series though. As far as the subs, unless they are highly underpowered for your system, plug em in. Forget the money, enjoy the music! Michael

glad that worked for you. I've not tried it yet since my KSW12 doesn't even come close to keeping up with my Cornwalls. I'll probably put it in the den with my ksb1.1 mini system. BTW, where did you end up putting the sub. Bet it wasn't where you expected it to be?!?!?

Ditto to all that has been said re a DIY Cornwall of differing dimensions. SOmewhat akin to the 'golden ratio' of the dimensions of a listening room, so are the ratios of the dimensions of a speaker cabinet. I think it would be most important to stay away from any extreme changes in dimension or any dimensions where cabinet sides were the same or even multiples of each other (1.5 x, 2x, etc.). I think much can be said for the advantages of having a large baffle board such as the Cornwall has. It does two things, insures that the woofer radiates into no more than 1/2 sphere regardless of room placement, and gives considerable distance between woofer and port exit. Note that even without hardly any interior 'padding' or extra bracing, that nearly all of the Cornwalls bass energy is channeled forward out of the cabinet, the thing hardly vibrates! Klipsch definietly got it right with this simple, elegant cabinet design. On my Cornwalls, the ports are two slots located approx 3/4" from bottom of cabinet interior (for bafffle board support) that 10 1/2" wide x 2 1/4" high. There is a 'shelf' that runs from the baffle board toward the rear of the cabinet the entire interior width that is 10 1/2" from the front face of the baffle board. Hope this helps! Michael

yes please more info, what wood are they made of? S/N's, location, price, etc. Hard to believe a pair of speakers built in the 1960's would go unfinished for 45 years? Michael

Billiard DUDE! Don't let those cable/satellite butchers near your system. In fact, don't even let them near your house unless your'e standing right there. I've seen installations where wire was stapled to roof shingles, vinyl siding, and drywall. These idiots get paid by the installation and have NO IDEA about how to properly and unobstructively run CATV wire through walls, in attics, etc. Get a REAL ELECTRICIAN to run all connecting cables for you from the outside junction box the satellite guy provides. It is a simple matter to go from the scrambler box through your Home Theatre once you get all the cable wiring in. From what I've seen, the 'radio' stations are just additional stations you pay for and are accessed just like any tv signals. For $10 a month though, you can get one of those new Cirris or XM svices that have a modular receiver you can put in your car or plug into a base station attached to your stereo. Don't know what the reciever costs, but they are becoming widely available. Hope this helps Michael

quick fix for stripped screw holes in wood: take a couple of toothpicks (a sliver of hardwood is better), insert in screw hole and snap it off even with top of hole, this will 'tighten' the hole up enough that the screw can get a new bite.