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(Lots of hyphens in that title...I like it... I bet this topic has your full and undivided attention if you're here reading this.) So let's get into the basic idea: crossing the ideas of Mr. Roy Delgado and Mr. Tom Danley on horn design, namely using a K-402 as the basis of a multiple-entry horn design--like the Unity Horn design of Sound Physics Labs. [The Synergy Horn of Mr. Danley is still patented, but it reuses the exact physical design of the Unity horn 100% (which is an apparent violation of patent practice in the second patent). So I won't be talking about Synergy Horns in this thread very much, but rest assured, the basic physics involved with the Unity and the Synergy horn designs are exactly the same. I like Unity horns, so I'll talk about those.] Specifically, what I'm discussing is a cross between the K-402 horn used on Roy's Jubilee (the real secret of the Jubilee, IMO) and the multiple-entry horn design of Tom Danley--whose original Unity Horn patent has now expired. So neither of these topics are controlled by legalities except of course the names that may be copyrighted by Klipsch and Danley Sound Labs, so I'll just refer to this new design as my "New Center" design, since I'm currently using it between two 2-way Jubilees as a center loudspeaker. What am I really talking about? Perhaps some pictures will help: The horn itself with drivers attached: So the first question is: why? That's pretty easy: I needed a better center loudspeaker between my Jubilees, but the size of another Jubilee is not possible to accommodate in my room. So I reused the horn profile of the most important horn--the high frequency K-402 horn used in the Jubilee--in a full range loudspeaker design. How can you do that? Isn't the K-402 just a HF horn? Well, the answer is: no, it isn't only a high frequency horn. We'll get to that in more detail as time goes by. Suffice it to say that the K-402 is used, unchanged, in the KPT-305 mid-bass module used by the 4-way behind-the-screen cinema systems. This module goes down to about 200 Hz using only a puny 8" driver that Klipsch provides. So the K-402 horn is good from at least 200 Hz to 20 kHz. I was needing more low end than just 200 Hz, so I decided to try my hand at a multiple entry design that reuses the aperture of the K-402 for both the bass woofers and the apex-mounted 2" compression driver. How does that work? Basically, you take two or more woofers and mount them on the sides of the back of a K-402 horn and provide through holes through the side of the horn at the right places to provide a secondary entry point for the bass frequencies, while the rest of the horn behaves like a K-402 horn with 2" compression driver. Two for one, basically. No Jubilee bass bin is used. Besides the fact that the Jubilee bass bin is exceptionally large, by itself, as a center loudspeaker, it just isn't possible to use the Jubilee bass bin in my case. But I still wanted everything else that I get from my Jubilees on either side, and I want this center loudspeaker to seamlessly integrate in terms of its timbre, coverage angles, and in all other sonic performance areas. In addition I get a few things that I don't get with the Jubilees: 1) point source loudspeaker performance (more on this topic later). [This is a big deal that Danley has been capitalizing on of late. Using separate horns for each way of loudspeaker has interesting issues that few people typically think about.] 2) I avoid the issue of dual-mouth bass bin polars at the crossover frequency that the Jubilee bass bin has. In fact I get the same polars all the way through the crossover region--something that is an issue for the Jubilee (refer to the EASE data for the Jubilee). I get full polar coverage up to and through 600 Hz and above. The Jubilee bass bin has issues starting at 200-300 Hz in this area due to its two bass bin mouths. 3) I don't have any folds in the horn. The advantages of this are many, and have been discussed in detail in the forum threads many times. 4) The cost of the center loudspeaker is about 1/3 of a full-up Jubilee. This isn't a trivial point to consider. It's also much less cost than Danley Synergies. 5) I don't need a corner of the room in the center of my setup to get good bass response, like the corner-located Jubilees need. Danley Synergies also have an issue in this regard (except the SH-96). EDIT (21 March 2019): a more recent measurement at ±1 dB resolution using new PEQs, Danley-style crossover filters, and tri-amped. The compression driver is a BMS4592ND (dual diaphragm) making the K-402-MEH a three-way design. Note the -3 dB frequency on the low end (where the cursor is shown): More REW measurements, like spectrograms, harmonic distortion, can be found on this page: A discussion of MEH crossover filters (focusing on the Danley SH-50 design): Polar performance is summarized in this plot (normalized curves to the on-axis response, 10-60 degrees off axis from centerline, or otherwise stated...20-120 degrees included angle) (EDIT 25 Oct. 2018: These polar response plots will be updated soon to reflect a more successful crossover filter overlap scheme): EDIT (4 March 2018): A normalized spectrogram of the horizontal polar performance using OmniMic (freeware): The -6 dB point is the blue-green color in this plot. This is spectacular directional performance down to 100 Hz, which is solely due to the dimensions of the K-402 mouth. This is significantly lower than the nominal polar cutoff frequencies for virtually all other horns used in home consumer environments. The effect of having such low frequency directivity available is outstanding in-room performance and ability to couple to the boundaries without polar lobing effects much more effectively than even the Jubilee bass bin. This is outstanding polar directivity performance that I have not seen in any other loudspeaker. 6) All of these advantages will also work even better for those that might want to use this design instead of Jubilees in the corners--except in a package that is about 1/3 the size of a Jubilee--essentially the same volume and form factor as a La Scala II, and about the same weight (190-200 lbs). 7) You can use this loudspeaker in a vertical orientation--like the difference between a regular and vertical Cornwall--without having to change out the internal baffle. The horizontal coverage can then be 60 degrees instead of 100 degrees. Ceiling bounce issues can be controlled at the loudspeaker in this orientation. Etc. Why doesn't Klipsch do that already? Probably because the Jubilee is aimed at the Cinema marketplace, which requires much higher average SPL. Secondary to this have been the patent issues that have more recently been resolved by the expiration of the controlling patent. Why not use a Danley Synergy Horn instead? Well, price for one. And all the Danley products are designed for PA use - even higher SPL than Cinema. This means that the requirements that they have been designed to don't match the needs of the home hi-fi enthusiast, like myself. Additionally, the K-402 horn is a better horn than the Danley dual-flare conical horns, in terms of polar control and coverage angles. The Danley Synergies used at home have been the SH-50 or SH-60 designs, which have about half the horizontal coverage angle that I need in my listening room, and they have insufficient low frequency headroom relative to the modified K-402 with two 15" woofers. You would have to buy two Danley SH-96s to have two stereo loudspeakers, and those units apparently go for $8363(US) each--they have 11 drivers in each cabinet which is neither necessary nor useful for the home hi-fi enthusiast, and those drivers cost real money. This K-402 design is much more "fit for purpose" than any of the current Danley designs. Danley SH-96 Polars: Danley SH-50 polars: Chris
Hello Everyone, An opportunity has presented itself and I'm going to take it. In order to fulfill my commitments however I need to generate some capital. My wife is a vet and we have been asked if we'd like to buy-in to a successful Vet Clinic with her colleagues. It pains me to post these up as i love them very much. I'll go into a bit of detail on how i collected and put the system together. My journey first started with a diy project utilizing a pair of 15" Radian 5215Be's coaxial drivers I purchased from Frank Fazzalari (Radian Dealer) from Coherent Audio. I put the drivers into some cabinets made by Bentwood (photo link below). I was happy with the outcome for awhile and it was my first time hearing 2 channel audio with the beryllium diaphragms. A few months pass and i see an ebay post for a single K-402 horn located in Florida. I wasn't able to get a pair as some other members on the forums snipe them first The single K-402 had an 5-6" crack on the top, I have not found an acoustical differences due to this crack. I will post additional photos when i get home tonight with up close HQ pics. The K-402 arrived on a pallet from Florida so my search began for another single. As you can imagine it is difficult to locate these, let alone by themselves for sale as a single. I was able to find one through Rescue Audio here in St. Louis and it was in perfect condition. While i was there i also purchase the KPT-904 LF cabinets that were also in great condition. So, at this point i had the horns and LF sorted. I wanted to incorporate the beryllium diaphragms with the K-402 horns as I've heard rave reviews from people on the forums. I contacted Trax Audio (Radian Dealer) in Utah about my plan to purchase a Radian 2" 760 PB and switch the diaphragms with the Radian 5215Be's. This would allow me to create a Radian 760BePB for the K-402's. I brought all the drivers to Bill Elrod at Winston Electronics in St. Louis, MO to switch the diaphragms for me, which he did a great job. I have 2 separate ways to handle the crossover. I have an active crossover, the Electro Voice DC-One which does a great job and is a 2 in 6 out active. I also purchased a Marchand XM44 crossover, which i prefer because i purchased a very nice external dac. The Marchand has balance and single ended connections and it can be configured up to a 4-way crossover by purchasing additional input boards from Marchand. They are currently crossed at 60hz and 600hz @ 48db slopes. I had Marchand install upgraded Burson V6 OP amps into the high frequency section as well. Both options can be customized to fit your needs for crossover. When i incorporated the Marchand XM44 into the system i utilized my pc for EQ. Obviously the Electro Voice DC-One can handle everything in one unit. I will separate these from the KPT-942's w/ Be diaphragms as I know people may want to go one way or the other. I also have amplifiers for sale. I have a Pass Labs Aleph 5 for the high frequencies and a Crown XLS 2500 for the low frequencies. They are both in great condition. An Inuke 6000 DSP is available, hand this connected to my subwoofers. These will be listed separate as well. That's the journey, I hope the story didn't get to convoluted and I'm happy to talk to anyone who is interested on the phone to answer any questions. I will deliver up to 100 miles from St. Charles, MO 63366 for free. Any further and I'll have to come up with a delivery charge to cover gas (Midwest delivery). Local pickup is fine. p.s. I have the original drivers that came on the 402s as well, I'll throw them in for free. I will not separate the 942 combo. Klipsch KPT-942 w/ Radian 760BePB Beryllium compression drivers: $3500.00 $3,100.00 KP-904 LF Section: $300.00 Marchand XM44-4AA Crossover: $2,100.00 Electro Voice DC-One Crossover: $350.00 Pass Labs Aleph 5 Amplifier: $1,500.00 Crown XLS 2500 Amplifier: $250.00 Inuke 6000 DSP Amplifier: $290.00 Bentwood Angel 15" corner cabinets: $1500.00 $1,200.00 Photo/Vid Links: KPT-942 Video KPT-942 Photos Bentwood Radian setup
I was getting quotes from Cinema dealers on the cost of a new set of Jubilees and one of them said he needed to hold off because the Klipsch factory is revising the cost of the Jubilee because they have made some major internal changes this month? No other information was given. I thought it was odd to not give me a quote, since when do salesmen not sell? Then I found the updated web site. http://www.klipsch.com/pro/cinema/behind-the-screen http://e994010f48279d85b5d7-a0bc3fbf1884fc0965506ae2b946e1cd.r57.cf2.rackcdn.com/product-specsheets/KPT-Cinema-Grandeur-Data-Sheet-v01.pdf This is interesting; "The new KPT-1515 low frequency enclosure has been redesigned and affords the same frequency response as the KPT-MWM-LF, but is almost 1/3 shallower – making the Cinema Grandeur much more versatile in installations where space is limited.
Hey I was recently looking into some big badass horns from Autotech, and was wondering what I should actually look for.. a lot of those horns only include size measurements and crossover point. Not a lot to go on.. The SEOS-30 horn were recommended to me once as a similar design as the K-402, but is this even? No way to know without some good comparisons. Sizewise it does look to match. But as it had so few info I was looking into some other horns, which had more info (I asked them, and if the info is not included on the site then they dont have them). Question is, what to deduce from the included specs? How much should I be looking at the frequency responses? I know "all compression drivers" and horns need EQ (which I will be applying, with lets say a Xilica), so are the ranges even relevant? And what about the polar maps (only horizontal), what is good? I'm guessing it should be a uniform as possible within the appropriate range (in my case that would be 500-700hz and up). Was hoping to maybe find a polar map of the K-402 as I know it to be excellent, but havent had any succes finding it. And, in your expert opinions, what look like the "ultimate horn" (design) for HiFi in a moderate room ((5x6m/15ftx18ft) with an adjoining room of 8square meter/40sqft). Not super relevant in the question I want to be asking at this moment, but I will be going for the horn that best fits my size requirements (I actually only got one which is it shouldnt exceed 1,5-1,66 ft. in height). Design wise it will be matched with a LaScala bin (or maybe even a stack) and Faital HF200 (or 20AT) and I will also test it with the K55M (+ 2" adapter) and a K77 (or CT120) tweeter in a 3-way (I already have those, so it doesnt hurt trying it right) Hoping to get some good (general) info into horns and what to look for when comparing them! Thanks!