HII Posted February 10, 2002 Share Posted February 10, 2002 Has any one heard the Bottlehead Foreplay/Paramour combination with Klipsch Heresy's? I have Heresy II's and am considering buying/building these amps and preamp. The price is within my budget. Can I go wrong with these? Are there better alternatives new or used? This is going to be my first tube purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 10, 2002 Share Posted February 10, 2002 Bottlehead makes excellent kits and the combination should do quite nicely. In addition, upgrades can be had for these kits from Doc B as well as DIYCable.com, which sells an inexpensive upgrade cap package for both the Paramour and the Foreplay. The bass will roll off quite quickly with Heresy, however; some feel it needs low end augmentation. Although I am not a big fan of the subwoofer with SET, you might look into it as a valid option to reach below 50hz lows. I would opt for a sealed enclosure design to keep the speed. As for the Bottlehead kits, they are a fine choice and the Bottleheadd forum is a definite plus. SET and horns make an amazing combination and the Heresy will benefit here. I am not an expert on subs by any means by I know that DIYCable carries a supposedly good sealed enclosure design (Rava)employing the 12" Shiva driver from Adire. Looks to be a fast enough rig to keep up with the Paramour. Email Kevin Haskins at www.diycable.com/ since he carries the subs, upgrade kits for Bottlehead, and currently uses a mod Foreplay and set of Paramours. Of course, you have probably noticed the Paraglow, which is definitely more than the Paramour but has better output transformers and more control in the low end. Colin is also happy with his Paramours as well, those on his later Cornwalls. For used options, I happen to really like the Wright Sound WPA3.5 but you will have to wait on this used by searching Audiogon often. Some like the DECWARE ZEN but I personally think the Bottlehead and Wright Sound would be a better option since they actually employ the 2A3, a true triode tube, and reach 3.5 watts, something the Zen just cant do. I might prefer the Wright Sound 3.5 option but it will be more expensive. It will sound subjectively more powerful than that Paramour since it can be driven into Class A2, although I doubt this will be needed with the Heresy II sensitivity. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-10-2002 at 07:31 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HII Posted February 10, 2002 Author Share Posted February 10, 2002 Thanks Mobile. Regarding your comments on the bass, in your opinion, will the Paramours underperform in the bass as compared to solid state amps or are you just refering to the fact that the Heresy's bass is cut off around 50hz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 10, 2002 Share Posted February 10, 2002 Well, the Paramours are designed to a price point. I think there are other SET, including the Paraglow, with a slightly better low end. Still, I dont think your going the solid state route will net you better overall musicality. Indeed, I would say that in some ways, the bass will have better tone than even the strongest solid state performers. Others dont agree. But to answer your question, I guess I was mainly talking about the propensity for some to be unhappy with the Heresy low end depth in general. ME? I think it's an acceptable trade off for the great, immediate, dynamic sound. It doenst bother me as much as others. Then, many have found a quality subwoofer to float the boat against the current. I would take a quality tube amp over solid state on the Heresy's any day. One thing you didnt mention, was your musical taste and listening habits. That does play a roll, obviously. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-10-2002 at 04:42 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HII Posted February 10, 2002 Author Share Posted February 10, 2002 I agree with you on the Heresies Mobile. I have never found that the bass is seriously lacking. Sure, they do not produce that rumbling, window shattering bass, but for 2 channel audio, the bass is very satisfactory. I especially enjoy how realistic drum snares sound with these speakers. On some tracks the snare sounds like it is absoulutely live! I also have never been impressed with that "car stereo bass thumping" anyway. I like bass to sound real and my preference is to have great overall musicality throughout the lows, mids and highs. In regards to my music preferences, I like all types of music: Classical, female vocals (i.e. Saragh McLaughlin), Accoustic guitar (i.e. Jessie Cook), Rock (all kinds), and am just starting to get in to some jazz music ( i.e. Diana Krall) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Alas, something else that Mdeneen and I agree on...vocalists. Can we have another? The suspense is killing me... Pitting this modern vocalists such as Diana Krall and Patricia Barber against the likes of Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan is a scary proposition. You realize just how much soul and feeling existed in the likes of Holiday and Vaughan. It wasnt only "pipes" as much as the experience and feeling behind their voices, something that Krall, Barber, Cole, and the likes of Sarah K can only mimic. Actually, listening to Billie Holiday is just on another level altogether. And Sarah Vaughan is right up there. Or course, you do have ole Ella. If you take that last, almost vapid release by Krall then you can easily see what I am talking about. The over produced strings were almost over the top. And the cover art finally pushed her over the 100% style over substance arena. Krall did have one fine sounding release that is not too bad... Love Scenes actually has some excellent sonics to boot and is passable musically. Of course, this doenst have much to do with the Heresy.... Stick to tubes, whatever you do. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 May I also submit Betty Carter, Dinah Washington, Nina Simone, as a few others ahead of MS Krall in the pipes and life experience department. Now I must play something by Betty Carter. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 I only have Love Scenes and I like it quite a bit. I have never heard any of the other ladies mentioned. I know who they all are but have never heard them in my living room. I will have to search some out on vinyl. Just to stay on topic... I sure do love my '76 Heresy's! Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 If you decide to go for a sub to match your Heresy's I would recommend you take a listen to the REL Strata 3. It is a 10 inch unit (sealed) that goes all the way down to 20 Hz and integrates seamlessly with the Heresy. I have been totally delighted with mine - it is the first sub that I have owned that simply plays and doesnt boom! As for vocals - might I venture to introduce Jacintha. She is available on both XRCD and SACD and is truely amazing. A whole different ball park from Ms. Krall IMHO. Strongly recommend - "Here's to Ben" and, if you have SACD - "Lush Life" in full surround sound. ------------------ 2 * Heresy 2 (mains) 2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears) 1 * REL Strata 3 sub Accuphase E211 amp. Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (solid state). Marantz CD6000 player Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player Stax Headphones Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver Sharp Video 32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV Mogami interconnects Silver Synergistic speaker cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 I've collected all the Diana Krall albums and she's probably one of my favorites to throw on after my 1-3/4 hour commute home. I am not going to dispute anybody's opinions, but would like to offer a few observations ... (1) She's young and is probably 15 years away from her peak musically and vocally; she is a pianist first, and a vocalist second. My all-time favorite pianist is Erroll Garner, and Diana's percussive 9/8 chops remind me a lot of him and he groans his way through songs while sitting on the Manhattan Yellow Pages Anyway, as a piano child-prodigy from Canada, the vocal piece feels like an added dividend at no extra cost. (2) She's trying a lot of stuff on for size, and probably has a pretty good idea of what is working for her and what isn't. The re-released "Stepping Out" album is, IMHO, her best, and it was her debut album. The "Big Shoes" cut on that (instrumental) is wonderful (along with 4-5 other tracks, including "Jimmy" which has a wonderful bowed bass section), and just demonstrates where she can take the rhythyms and percussiveness of the piano. (3) Her albums are well-recorded, and it nice listening to a well-balanced recording that is pretty hard to find. I also have Jacintha and Patricia Barber ... Jacintha is indeed nice, but feels a bit more formulaic that DK, and Patricia Barber is my first choice for someone to listen to at 1 a.m., just before closing time while nursing a 4-finger Johnnie Walker Gold (ice to the top). If you haven't heard Josh Groban, go grab his first and only (so far) album which as produced by David Foster. While there is not a plethora of artistic depth, it is a well-recorded and orchestrated album that showcases this 20 year-old's great (and I mean great) baritone voice. If you want a sneak preview, go to http://www.joshgroban.com and hit the "listen" section ... His "Gira Con Me" blows Andrea Bocelli away, and it will be 15 years (for sure) before Josh finds his stride vocally. He's only been singing I think for 6-7 years. Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring is fun (a bit campy but will give the Khorns a real workout), and The Prayer, a duet with Charlotte Church (of the UK) will get the goosebumps going. ------------------ If you don't like what is coming out, you wouldn't like what is going in." -PWK- --------------------- Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 just throwing my waylessthan 2¢ in re/vocalists... Diana Krall - Don't hate her cuz she's beautiful. Seen her twice, even better live. Agree with above post, great piano...excellent voice...not hard to look at is a bonus Patricia Barber - Easy on the eyes too (No comments necessary re/orientation). Very interesting arrangements. Jane Monheit - needs to dig deeper, another looker (big time), my wife likes her Shirley Horn - my favorite Lucinda Williams - I know it's a curve ball in this group, but she is awesome Blossom Dearie - another curveball, must have had the boys beggin' back then, extremely sharp wit Chris ------------------ 2 channel Klipsch Cornwalls (1978) Cary CAD 300SEI amp (WE 300B's, various NOS 6SN7's) Arcam Alpha MCD cd player Sony 5000F Tuner (1968) HT Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear) Klipsch KV2 (center) Klipsch SW12 (sub) Marantz SR700 receiver Toshiba DTS DVD JVC SVHS VCR Sony Hi8 VCR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barista Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 I too have been very interested in tube amps here lately. The Paramour is one on my list for sure. I have really been interested in some of the Antique Sound Labs stuff. Specifically the AQ1003 DT . At $750, 30wpc with a integrated preamp, it looks to be an excelent buy. If I'm not mistaken, a fellow on the board has one he runs on his KLF 30s. He raves about it. Only thing that worries me about the Paramour is whether or not it could sustain enough low end to keep me happy. I don't like boomy bass, but I do want the power to be there when it needs to be. As for great Jazz artist and recordings, I would have to say my all time favorite LP is the Ella Fitzgeral & Louis Armstrong Verve recording. If you don't have this in your collection, get it. What a wonderful pairing. Louis's raspy, rough voice and horn playing with Ella's smooth as silk vocals. It's a jazz masterpiece, IMHO. ------------------ Barista T. Bill This message has been edited by Barista on 02-11-2002 at 02:40 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HII Posted February 11, 2002 Author Share Posted February 11, 2002 Barista: I am going to audition a Passion Audio I10 integrated tube amp next weekend with my Heresies. I beleive this amp is a direct relation to the AQ1003 (Same manufacturer and same parts). I am still interested in the Paramours though, as the SET amps seem to be very highly regarded here. The Paramour/Foreply combination appears to be very good value and all of the responses here are very positive on the these amps and preamp. I too am concerned about the bass response and louder volumes, however, Mobile does not think that this should be a problem and he seems to be very knowledgable with SET amps. The problem is you just can't audition these amps, nor return them as they come in kits. HII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barista Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 HII, Passion Audio I10! Wow, great find. Looks to be about $200 cheaper than ASL to boot. Let me know how it sound when you audition it! Where can you buy these? I live in Dallas, and can't seem to find any hifi shops who dabble with tubes anymore. ------------------ Barista T. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Ok, two small notes of caution here. I have heard of some reliability problems with gear from the ASL factory. This had been some cause of concern to me as well since I used to recommend these amps as a great low cost option if someone wanted new. I do know of people with gear from this company that is doing fine. Yet I have heard some pretty scary stories as well. And a company I am associated with has elected not to carry this brand online due to issues. This is just a note of caution, that's all. As for the Bottlehead Paramours, I think they will NOT have quite the low end control of other amps with more hefty output transformers. They are built to a price point. Now, will the bass be a floppy goose egg? No, but at more taxing levels, I dont think they will offer the control of other more costly units, even their Paraglow. In some ways, besides the low cost and kit option, I think it worth spending a bit more if possible. But plenty are happy with the Paramour. This is just from what I have heard based on comments from friends and partners. Something like the Paramour will surely not have the bass impact and slam of something like the Welborne LAbs Moondog kit. Of course, this is more money. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-11-2002 at 05:24 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HII Posted February 11, 2002 Author Share Posted February 11, 2002 Barista: Check out www.fineaudio.net. This is a local store near where I live that carries the Passion Audio line. With your hefty American $, the exchange rate should make this unit really cheap. Again, I am still interested in the Paramours. A question that I have for Mobile is, keeping in mind that the bass response will probably be inferior to something like the Passion Audio I10, will the sound quality and musical ability of the Paramours be far superior to the I10? Furthermore, if I were, at some point, to upgrade the Paramours transformers to Magnequest (or something equivalent), will the bass response of the Paramours improve substantially? Again, I do not require that booming bass, but prefer quality midrange, highs and defined realistic bass so that all the bass notes are punchy, clear and well defined. I have inherent bass limitations with my Heresies as they only go down to 50hz. With this in mind, I already am satisfied with the bass of the Heresies, and just as long as the Paramours provide equivalent bass (and better sounding)to my 35w solid state amp, I am sure that I would be very happy with the Paramours. HII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Gotta agree with Chris on that one,Josh Groban is UNBELIEVABLE!I first heard his voice on the Ally McBeal show and I swore it was a voice dubbed in with this young actor but I was wrong.I too visited his web page in the past and am going to purchase his cd.You know he's good if a Metalhead like myself likes his work. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 While looking for a used Cary SLP 50 B I can across this link. It's probably been posted here before, but I haven't seen it yet. The older Diane Krall CD's are better IMHO. The new one has less vocals and more strings. http://www.soundstage.com/tubeor/tube1.htm danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Well, the lowest transformer option in the Paramour is not exactly a beast. You read the comments from customers online any they pretty much a ecstatic, yet this really IS a low cost transformer option. If you can in any way swing some more cash, I would elect to go better transformers. But that is just me. I hate getting almost there..but with that nagging need to upgrade once again. I think the little Paramours are fine amps for the money. They are just not going to be the most refined solution. In other words, as I said, they are made to a price point. Nice link to some Kevin Deal comments. Problem with Kevin is that many of his tubes are VERY expensive, although there are still some reasonable prices. But worse than that, as his stock has dwindled, or for other reasons, he has decided to only sell certain tubes to customers that buy his amps or CD players. He no longer will sell any 6SN7 unless you bought equipment from Upscale Audio. And I think he has now added a few more tubes as well, including NOS 12AX7 and 12AU7. Not sure of those last two but believe so. Still, that article has some good info. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-11-2002 at 07:39 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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