NOSValves Posted February 14, 2002 Author Share Posted February 14, 2002 mdeneen Your instruction's were great. I feel like patting myself on the back . I adjust the output tube balance without a problem it was relatively easy. I'm not sure if this is a good sign but both sets evened out exactly the same at about 36 VDC on my VOM. Randy Bey I'm still Alive I've been spending allot of time reading over at the HH scott forum and learning as I go. I have a question. One of the American radionic Caps has a wax like substance on the bottom of it. Is these a leaky cap ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 GREAT! Mdeneen did a good deed here. Now you see how relatively simple, yet rewarding it is to do this work yourself. It really is not that hard! And it makes you feel great you didnt blow $75-$100 for a shop bozo to do same. As for the substance, yes, that is a leaky cap. It really is common. I think you could replace the caps yourself with a bit of practice. And you could order the parts sep and save big $$$ over kit, which actually does not include the best parts to be honest. Auricaps are better. And their PS caps are Illinois wich are ok but much better out there. Worth it. How does it sound? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 14, 2002 Author Share Posted February 14, 2002 mdeneen The Cap in question is .1 MFD 400 wvdc and is white American Radionics its about 1 1/4 " X 1/2 ". Its not in a spot where I feel safe to feel if its hot. If you know what I mean But it doesn't seem to be. You were right the balance didn't do anything. I've been checking as best I can figure and been talking to my Dad and we have narrowed it to be somewhere before the Output tubes so far. But I'm not a real sure what I'm doing. I checked the DC to the output tubes and they all check exactly the same at 430 on my VOM they call for 420 but this difference could just be my VOM. The 5AR4 checks out fine also at 440 which is 10 high also. I pretty muched ruled out it being a tube problem by switch tubes from channel to channel and there no change. Is there anything else I should check that you can think of ? Oh and when recapping what brand do you suggest or prefer ? Thansk for your help This message has been edited by NOS440 on 02-14-2002 at 04:10 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 mdeneen, can you show me some data on this coupling capacitor issue? I would generally recommend staying around the same value as the old for coupling caps. But you almost ALWAYS seem to side with this old school approach, almost completely forgoing any advance in anything audio preferring to call ALL newer approaches as Audiophile marketing hype or subjective (as opposed to GOOD scientific research) opinion(negative connotation here). Yes, some of the exotic parts issue falls under law of diminishing returns... but you continuously undermine ANYTHING remotely in this field. I can tell you that the modern oil caps are simply amazing... so smooth with excellent detail. Putting a Jensen oil (they have been in the business for 50 years btw) vs a Hovland vs a Orange Drop 716P can be easily discernable. And you can hear the increase in performance. Of course, I would not put something like this in the Scott. But I might suggest the reasonable Auricaps for the important coupling caps. And I would opt for good PS caps as well. No, not Black Gates WKZ at 100 a pop. But there are good alternative low ESR caps. I dont know what your agenda is here but it almost seems like you completely distrust "subjective" opinions on sonics preferring to rely on measurements. Perhaps you can look in to Richard Marsh's work in cap design or some of the development going in at Jensen and Audio Note. Caps can make a serious difference in the sound of components. I admit, NOS could probably install some Orange Drop 716P and be pretty happy but I think these caps are not as sonically open and seem to color the sound more than Hovlands and the cheaper Auricaps. But Hovlands of the same value would probably not fit. Auricaps would I belive. I dont think I haev seen you side with one single development or advance in audio, preferring to almost shun everything with a hint of this flavor. I mean, christ, you are so biased against almost ANYTHING of this nature. Of course, it is relative as I had to BEG the guy working on a friend's EICO to please sub the 716P over the 715... he said the same type of thing. It's like banging your head on the wall! Meanwhile, you use loaded sentences that seemingly bait like a troll, dismissing any development in audio as unscientific. We are not talking EXOTICA here. I mean it is like pulling teeth. Yes, warn that to go overboard with exotic parts is not wise. But to so color these decisions every time someone suggests something out of the old skool approach is equally biased and unwise. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Nice reply. I do not conddemn old school parts. I want parts that make the components better. Sometimes, a Orange Droip 716P works great. I have them in one of my EICOs. Worked fine. You dont see me calling it JUNK. On the other hand, I am tired of seeing you debase EVERTHING THAT IS NOT something you used in 1969. You dont seem me hawking ONLY esoteric parts at all. In fact, any part you have never used is esoteric. If you see my posts, you will notice I recommned all sorts of brands, some VERY inexpenive, some more expensive, some esoteric, some plain as paper. You are actually biased againsst ANYTHING new, which is just as short sigted and narrow minded as the DIY pinhead that can ONLY use Infinicaps or Exotic Teflons. This approach is EQUALLY off the mark for it once again, fails to look at each use of the product and is, at times, buying by BRAND name and price. I dont think either approach smacks of truth or is open. You actually are not even remotely curious about anything outside the realm of what you use. Power to you for getting NOS going with his piece. If you notice, I have lauded your efforts. But Christ, enough of the bias against anything that is not in this realm. IT is just as far off the mark. Believe it or not mdeneen, some things that involve CHANGE are advances. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 14, 2002 Author Share Posted February 14, 2002 Lets all be friends guy's. this isn't worth argueing about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 I was reading through this thread and noticed a little heating up in the personality department. I am just starting down this road of upgrading and going back to tube amps etc. All because I grabbed some nice old Klipsch horn driven speakers. I have never met any of the members of this forum, and I can only tell their respective credentials from how they discuss problems and issues that we beginners bring to the table. As far as I know some of you could be top notch engineers who have the highest of credentials and experience. For example, I just read this statement about Capacitors from mh: < "I can tell you that the modern oil caps are simply amazing... so smooth with excellent detail. Putting a Jensen oil (they have been in the business for 50 years btw) vs a Hovland vs a Orange Drop 716P can be easily discernable. And you can hear the increase in performance. Of course, I would not put something like this in the Scott. But I might suggest the reasonable Auricaps for the important coupling caps. And I would opt for good PS caps as well. No, not Black Gates WKZ at 100 a pop. But there are good alternative low ESR caps. "> This creates in me an image of Mr. Mobile Homeless at a bench with a particular amplifier with a particular circuit taking one after another of every Cap currently available and systematically plugging it into the circuit for an objective comparison. What I want to know is , did you really do that? Sometimes I am totally amazed at what seems like such absolutely thorough knowledge of what is available and what it implies sonically. I am curious how you actually obtained this knowledge which seems like it would take a high paying job at a major test laboratory to obtain. Forgive my naivete here, I am only beginning down the path and it seems like there is so much to know and so many damn variables and comparisons and evaluations. Has someone, maybe you in fact, actually tried every one of these Capacitors in an amplifier, and then went on to compare every one of these available Caps in yet another amp circuit, and then another, and then another? And are the sonic evaluations of one Cap over another further verified with a sample of listeners over a range of recorded music and a range of additional necessary components to the system like speakers and preamps and media players etc.? Seems like such an overwhelming number of variables in order to come to the desired conclusions. Maybe I am making it more complicated than it actually is. Just Curious. -lippedcayed and hornsayed, OR -awed and dismayed This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 02-14-2002 at 10:43 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 You're right, NOS. Actually, it was great for mdeneen to help you with your amp. I am all for it; it's a great service. I just want all options to be open with no preconceived notions about any of this, whether it be new or old. Old and new can come together to make a something better. My 2A3 amp is basically from a 50 year old circuit pre-dating any of these push pull amps. I believe that old and new can combine when each has things to offer. I dont think anyone here could accuse me of overlooking anything based on simple preconceived notions are bias just because it is OLD, new, cheap, expensive, rare, common, past, or present. I prefer to look at quality wherever it lies, be it in a 40 year old piece of vintage gear that would be laughed out of a modern Hi-Fi salon, to a modern Parafeed, Push Pull Triode featuring battery heated filiments and esoteric parts. I try not to let prejudice or standard notions dictate my advice or perception of something. Vinyl has merit alongside SACD... One does not have to spend $5,000 on hardware. Great musicality and emotion can be derived from a $100 40 year old tube amp. Yet a 60 year old design can employ modern parts and technology and perhaps take it to another level. The important thing is to remain open minded and not jaded, while not neglecting what had quality in the first place, or falling to the misshapen habit of chosing new for sake of new. I shouldnt have reacted so harshly, you are right. I was hoping you would remain open to new AND the old. Sometimes, a more expensive part and implimentation does indeed bring about an improvement; yet sometimes it can be a false lead or hollow drop to progress for progress' sake. Still, the only way to learn is to always be curious and not shut off. I have a 30 year old, cantankerous BMW Bavaria 3.0 with dual weber carburators. There is nothing like sitting behind the wheel of this machine and feeling the craftsmanship and performance of one of the best straight six engines ever made. Yet, I can also appreciate my old 92 Miata for its great throw back to the days of the Lotus Elan with none of the foibles of that fine, yet finicky, British machine. The Miata is a car lambasted by my vintage German audio cohorts for it supposed "feminine" bias... Yet, despite the preconceptions, this damn car is probably one of best all around sports cars I have ever owned. Ok, well maybe that ole 63 Bel Air... What the hell am I blabbering about now? I need to listen to this solid state amp some more and stop messin' around... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 Solid State what up with that. You must be off your rocker LOL !!!! Let me ask you this MH if you had my Amp what brand caps and such would you install in it ?? Keeping it somewhat affordable Oh and I was throwing the blame on anyone just saying lets not argue Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Thanks, Clipped. Good to see you are now in the Consumer Reports mode. You paint quite an impossible picture there. A regular Mike Wallace, eh? Actually, those are not that many caps in that quote. Think about it. Four caps used for coupling... Orange Drop 716p This really is a great cheap cap and one of the first optionf for redoing vintage gear. I had never ever used this cap until I finally got the EICO going and it is a good cap...and the least expensive to boot. You dont see them in new gear that much but is a staple with the DIY vintage crew. In one of my HF-81. Jensen Copper PIO These are in my Welborne Labs Moondogs. They actually say Audio Note on them but are really in fact, Jensens that Audio Note renamed. Audio Note in the last two years have split from this company and started making there own caps. This is probably the most musical, smoothest, most natural sounding cap I have heard. I have heard them in Cary SETs, Cary PP SLA-70, Welborne Moondogs, and Cary Preamps. Some think they sound slow ...a too sweet. But in a good circuit, this cap is so damn smooth and harmonically rich. Hovland This is a great cap as well that is smooth but still has that transient snap that others look for... I have heard these in countless amps now - They are the second choice for most Moondog coupling caps. I still like the Jensens better. They perform well in Preamps... one being the really great overachiever Wright Sound 12A preamp. This is good upgrade for this piece Auricap This is a new cap that I have heard in others equipment but never my own. It is not as expensive as some of the others but it is pretty smooth from what I have heard in pieces that have had Hovland and Auricaps. It is a good alternative and to me, a step up from the little 716p Remember, the simpler the piece of gear, the easier it is to hear the parts differences. Also, the more transparent and revealing your system is, the easier it is to see the subtle shadings. If you plug a Hovland cap in a 2A3 SET after a oil cap, the difference actually changes the presentation of the amp! Seriously. Coupling caps really do make a difference...which is why so many new designs are going to NO coupling caps in the circuit. As for caps like Solen and Black Gate....ELNA Cerafine...Nichicon....Panasonic. This are caps you usually see in power supplies. If you look at my Moondog page, you will see a mixture of the first three caps listed: Solen - ELNA Cerafine - And Black Gates. The Solen is the only one of that mix that is NOT a Electrolytic cap (It's metallized polypropylene). Some prefer it in tube power supplies. They are big beasts and do not fit in things like EICO and SCOTT... The Electrolytic is the cheapest form of cap and is really best avoided as coupling caps but in its highest form, it really good in power supplies. The BIG Black Gate WKZ(which two of our members actually have in their amps) is considered one of the best power supply caps ever made. I can only say it does seem to present a really black background when put over a stock computer grade electrolytic. On the other hand, it takes FOREVER to break in and warm up. Both Edmond and Ed have the big beast in their 2A3 amps. IT is QUITE an expensive option. One cap that I HAVE that is very expensive but that I dont really recommend as much as the MIT cap. IT is VERY transparent and made a huge difference in my Cary preamp. The RTX series is VERY quick. Yet I now dont think they are the smoothest and most musical offerings. They ARE tranparent...but possible at the expense of this smooth quality. Have I sat and tested each of these caps? Hell no. But I have heard all of them swapped in and out of circuits. And I am leaving out things like Illinois and Kimber caps which I have in my ASUSA amp currently. What is important is to no WRITE THESE PIECES OFF because of expense, or lack of expense, reputation, or lack of reputation etc. I ASKED Ed to send me that Monarchy Audio SM-70 amp so I could HEAR IT FOR MYSELF. I am glad I did. Next week, I'll be getting in a SLEW of amps to hear. One thing is great. The Cornwall is an amazing speaker to audition equipment on... It will tell you what is going on upstream like no other speaker I have owned. Forget Five Easy Pieces. You just entered The China Syndrome. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-15-2002 at 07:39 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 mobile homeless Why is it that everytime I start to read reply from you I go get a cup of coffee because I know I'm going to reread it a few times. So much good info ! Out of all the caps that you've heard do you have one that you would say would reproduce the Original scott sound the best ? Mdeneen, mobile homeless Okay now lets get into my further findings last night. I started playing around with my 7 7189's to see if I could get the AMP to sound right with them. Never did but you sure can tell the difference between them I think out of the 7 some Tele's that came with it are weak but the Amperexs seem fine. Well anyways while doing this I noticed again the tempeture difference in the output transformers again. The right (good sounding channel) gets warming alot faster than the left and is alway's warmer. So I put the 4 Amperexs back in and let the unit warm up at low volume and settle in for a hour and it started to sound great again no distortion out of either channel. But the left transformer is at least 15 degrees cooler than the left at all times and takes way longer to warm up. The right tranformer has more things surounding it like the 5AR4, 2 output tubes and the left trans. While the left has only the 2 7189s and the right trans warming it or limiting the heat transfer. Maybe this is normal ? Now to make things even more confusing this morning I fired the beast up and within 5 minutes max it sounded perfect. Oh and I now put my foot down and got my wife to let me move it back upstairs with my Klipsch SF-2s and ksw-15 sub(the basement is not musically friendly to say the least). The center channel output really works well for a sub input. This room is only 12' X 12' and really sounds awesome with the Scott and 1st Vinyl,2nd CD player or even FM for casual listening (Can't wait to rid the scott of the hissy static that it omits on the Phono channel). From what I've learned so far my guess is all I have are some caps or electrolytics that are having to warm up to get near spec and that's my problem. I bet this thing really sings when I replace all these. Most likely this weekend or next at the latest. Again thanks for helping me and turning me on to the world of Tubes. The more I get involved the cooler I think this hobby is !! Craig Ostby This message has been edited by NOS440 on 02-15-2002 at 10:25 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 I bet you have some out of spec resistors/caps in there. Those resistors are notorious for floating all over the place. One quick note, is the warmer transformer nearer the power transformer? I know this sounds a bit absurd, but the closer output to the power trans is almost always hotter. I cant remember the interior of that unit but people have written me about their EICOs wondering why the right output is so much hotter than the left... REAson? It is RIGHT next to the power trans which get very hot. Of course, this could have NOTHING to do with your situation but it's just something I wanted to mention that might seem obvious but is overlooked. If you want to go the cheapest route that will get that amp sounding pretty nice, I would opt for the Orange Drop 716P in the position of coupling caps. I think the Auricaps will sound better, but the Orange Drop 716P is a neat little cap and is used by many of the vintage crowd. It is a film/foil cap and is BETTER than the more common Orange Drop 715. Make sure you get the 716P. For your power supply filter caps, you have all sorts of choices. I would try for the highest voltage possible here and perhaps move up a bit in capacitance. With tube rectified amps, you really dont want to drop a ton of capacitance in here, unlike solid state designs where massive amounts can be dropped in (choke PS with tube rect. is slightly different story). What to buy? Sprague ATOM would be good here. The Nichicon MUSE. Also, many are saying the new Panasonic TSHB caps are nice with low ESR. So here are the choices cap wise: coupling: - Orange Drop 716P - Auricaps Power Supply Caps: - Panasonic TSHB - Sprague ATOM - Nichicon MUSE series The resistors are a whole nother story! heh.... kh ps - Out of spec components can also cause the outputs to run hotter. The output transformers are ususally pretty robust and the iron in this scott, eico etc is usually pretty sound. But do mdeneen's test. I am willing to bet it is not the output though. But the test is wise and you learn more to boot! Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-15-2002 at 04:42 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 mdeneen, what chip do you have on your shoulder? Why have you actually become a glowing *******? Christ. That reaction was completely and totally uncalled for. It is absurd. How old are you? You seem to have a problem reading others posts carefully. And youre reasctions are so over the top, it is embarrassing. Where did I suggest randomly uping the capacitance to super high levels? In fact, I plainly explain that with TUBE RECTIFIERS you CANNOT go berserk with a huge increase in capacitance! Can you read carefully? I then in the next sentence go on to explain that with a choke or a solid state rectified supply, it is MUCH different (in other words, I said to stay NEAR the value as tube recitifers cant handle the big increase like Chokes or SS rectified units)! You have done this so many times it is absurd. As for the 450volts rec, I would always tell him it is safer to go higher here but not less. I was throwing out a ballpark figure for the most common voltage of PS caps in vintage gear. Obviously, it it calls for 475, then you should at least go for that amount if not more. As for the coupling cap and PS recs, they are all sound devices and nothing AUDIOPHILE crazed about them I find the tone of your response absolutely uncalled for and near embarrassing as it shows the chip on your shoulder. I had nowhere NEAR this tone in my posts. It is completely out of line. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 You apparently have a deep seeded personal problem. At your age, change (like in parts) seems to be a lost cause. Perhaps you have had your head buried in technical matters to the detriment of your own psyche. In this case, perhaps a 450volt cattle prod might do the trick. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 You guys need a BUNNY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 Holly fright what happened. Lets all relax. I love all this advise and don't want to be the start of a war LOL !!!! Let all just settle down. Mdeneen please don't go I'd be lost without your technical advise and test know how. So lets all get along Okay !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 Oh and Mdeneen I'll do those test later. I have some running I have to do. I might need some clarification here and there though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Hell, I'd love to get along with the ole coot...but he keeps making fun of my infirmities. Hell! I am guilty! I Like the pretty gold caps that cost more than an Egyptian Tide Clock! Of course, the cost of an Orange Drop 716p is about $1.75, but hell.... this audiophile stuff is EXPENSIVE! http://www.angela.com/catalog/capacitors/ kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-15-2002 at 04:53 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Wow, dude. Like... love... wow! I'd like to know how the two fellers' advice contradicts each other. It would be a good start to deciphering that little fracas. Wow! Like... love, man, love! Wow! How much do dealers charge to bias new tubes? My manual advises against DIY biasing. Is this advice overstated? Did I just f*rt? Wow! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 mdeneen I take it that both these test are done with the power off and the unit unplugged right ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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