Confused over my HT set up

[KlipschHead281]

Ok, over the past 5 months I have replaced my main's, center, surrounds and added a new subwoofer. On the left facing wall about 3ft from the corner I have my KSW-300 subwoofer with the phase at 180, the surrounds are RS-42's and the rear channel is a single RS-42 set up as a single channel in my AVR. All front speakers are set to large and in the AVR I have the crossover at 80 but the mix set to BOTH and the subwoofer output is going to the Line In on both subs, so the mains get full frequency and the sub's get everything below 80hz, the back channels are all set to small. All speakers are set to 75db per my Radio Shack meter. the subwoofers are actually set to about 80db per the meter.

From my main listening position it utterly rocks, sounds unreal, WOTW hits so hard I question the integrity of my living room handling it. However 3 feet to the right where my wife sits, sounds slightly out of phase bass wise and from the side listening position forget about it, utter garbage.

So, this is how I have it set up. the room is 15ft wide by 16ft deep. The front layout is as follows: RF-82's, RC-64 and AV123 MFW-15 and to the left off picture is the KSW-300

Everybody says set the speakers to small no matter how well they handle full range but the wife and I don't always have the subwoofer on (for now) so setting the speakers to small makes them sound horrible without the sub, obviously. Setting the fronts all to large again, sounds unreal from where I sit, not so good from all other positions. This isn't much fun when friends come over. So, I guess I could set my huge speakers to small negating having speakers of this size (in my head anyway). Can someone explain why setting such big speakers to small is the correct thing to do and why I should re-config this setup to use the subwoofer whenever we have the rest of the system on.

I realize having the KSW-300 mixed with the MFW-15 isn't considered the best thing but again, from my seat the mix of these two is unreal. I wanted to move the KSW-300 nearfield but there isn't a way to do that. I am going to experiment tomorrow with all sorts of settings that I'm sure will drive the wife crazy but some input from people who know their stuff will help get me in the right direction.

Please don't post "just set them to small and be done with it", I have read that before and I'd rather get the technical reason on why such awesome sounding speakers belong on the "small" setting. Maybe I'm just not getting it...

[toddvj]

There may possibly be a few issues going on here. It's great that you get good sound from your position, but I can completely understand why you would want others to get a good experience as well.

As far as why to use the small setting for your speakers, I think you should use whatever sounds better to you. If it was my system, I'd set the mains to small, and the x-over at the lowest setting your AVR allows. If you are able to adjust the crossover frequency to each speaker individually, that is even better. All that being said, there is nothing wrong with using large.

One thing you said that caught my attention was "...so the mains get full frequency and the sub's get everything below 80hz," this isn't quite true. Your sub gets anything recorded for the LFE channel (which could be frequencies higher than 80Hz) Plus everything recorded for the Surround channels that is below 80Hz.

I suspect that you are probably having problems with the two subs cancelling each other out. I would experiment with placement of them, but also with the placement of your mains. Maybe if they are spread out farther, you would get a more even soundfield?

That MFW-15 is a good looking sub, BTW.

[RockOn4Klipsch]

I think most people adjust the speakers to small for HT use so there are not so many standing waves in your room as well as taking the load of the reciever. If all your speakers are set to larger, during dynamic scenes you may not get the impact you deserve because you have a limited power supply.

I think your problem is most so as Todd has said, you probably having standing waves in the room that are canceling out at other seating posistions.

I use to be a very selfish listener, ONE chair in the sweet spot, I've moved everything around in order to maintain the best oomph at all seating posistion, it's not MY ideal setup but sound better over a larger space.

[KlipschHead281]

There may possibly be a few issues going on here. It's great that you get good sound from your position, but I can completely understand why you would want others to get a good experience as well.

As far as why to use the small setting for your speakers, I think you should use whatever sounds better to you. If it was my system, I'd set the mains to small, and the x-over at the lowest setting your AVR allows. If you are able to adjust the crossover frequency to each speaker individually, that is even better. All that being said, there is nothing wrong with using large.

One thing you said that caught my attention was "...so the mains get full frequency and the sub's get everything below 80hz," this isn't quite true. Your sub gets anything recorded for the LFE channel (which could be frequencies higher than 80Hz) Plus everything recorded for the Surround channels that is below 80Hz.

I suspect that you are probably having problems with the two subs cancelling each other out. I would experiment with placement of them, but also with the placement of your mains. Maybe if they are spread out farther, you would get a more even soundfield?

That MFW-15 is a good looking sub, BTW.

Thanks for the reply, agreed, the subs might be cancelling each other but I have tried it without the KSW and while not as bad it's still there. I'm going to work with the phase knob and adjust the speaker sizes and try again from different positions. I am contemplating another MFW-15 to smooth the bass out and down the road an SVS EQ.

I have already tried spreading the RF-82's apart, while imaging improved I didn't have a good place to put the MFW, the room just isn't big enough to allow for it anywhere but the two front corners.

[KlipschHead281]

I think most people adjust the speakers to small for HT use so there are not so many standing waves in your room as well as taking the load of the reciever. If all your speakers are set to larger, during dynamic scenes you may not get the impact you deserve because you have a limited power supply.

One reason I buy Marantz is because their receivers can handle the output and I demand they do it for the money they cost. So if it says it will deliver the goods, I'm not going to give it the easy out by adjusting for it, it either does the job or it goes up for sale. During dynamic scenes in the sweet spot the systems hits so hard the floor moves, literally moves. I think it can handle the load very easily. BUT, if the system sounds better with the mains on small, I'll give it a shot and see what happens, it just means we turn the sub on more often.

I think your problem is most so as Todd has said, you probably having standing waves in the room that are canceling out at other seating posistions.

I'd have to agree, an a good EQ could help here but I think the solution is a matching MFW-15, the wife will put up a fight though, so I'll take her to dinner tonight and apply some "booze" prior to discussing it. [6]

I use to be a very selfish listener, ONE chair in the sweet spot, I've moved everything around in order to maintain the best oomph at all seating posistion, it's not MY ideal setup but sound better over a larger space.

It would be very easy to be selfish here, from where I sit, man, it's perfect, and my wife says to her it sounds fine where she sits. BUT, I know it's not right there and when friends are over, no way I want it to not be right for them. I think I'll remove the KSW and retune the system, if I move it to the left corner then she'll have the sweet spot, only thing I can think of is another matching sub.. yep....

[Mr. RF62]

I think the phase is a good place to start as having it set at 180 out will prolly fight against the other one(assuming it is set at 0). I have two subs in my setup and I've had to set both of them at different phases cause one is in front of me, the other behind. If yours is both at the front, I would say they should be set the same or very close to it. My reasoning is you don't hook your front speakers 180 out of phase.

[KlipschHead281]

I think the phase is a good place to start as having it set at 180 out will prolly fight against the other one(assuming it is set at 0). I have two subs in my setup and I've had to set both of them at different phases cause one is in front of me, the other behind. If yours is both at the front, I would say they should be set the same or very close to it. My reasoning is you don't hook your front speakers 180 out of phase.

Setting the phase of the KSW to 180 is what got it sounding perfect from my position (possibly crossed at the speaker itself?, would explain having to use 180) but I agree, it's got to be the KSW helping cause it. Before the wife and I go out tonight I'll unplug it and run through the WOTW during the town square scene where they come out of the ground and we'll see how it is then, if it still bad then tomorrow I'll change to small and reset the levels then if I'm desperate I'll let Audyssey give it a shot.

[Rich_Guy]

Have you tried adjusting the phase while you are sitting in the other listening positions?

[KlipschHead281]

Ok, have been working on the system since 7am this morning. I have the mains set to small, the crossover set to 60hz and things sound more uniform from the 3 positions and it still kicks major butt from my position, in fact from both mine and the wifes position it sounds very close.

Only downside right now is the subs have to be on. I'm going to try Audyssey next after the wife leave to go to the store.

[Mr. RF62]

That sounds good to me. FWIW, I have mine x-over at 60 hz as well. I like it.

[peshewah]

I also have my xover set at 60hz. KlipschHead, how does the RC64 blend with your 82"s?Is it a lot better than the RC 62?

[KlipschHead281]

I also have my xover set at 60hz. KlipschHead, how does the RC64 blend with your 82"s?Is it a lot better than the RC 62?

During pink noise tests you can hear the difference but during voice panning from left center to right or from center to either RF-82 it sounds natural. As to the RC-64 being better than the RC-62, depends I suppose, the RC-64 is an expensive massive center channel for sure and for me I feel it sounds excellent. I haven't heard the RC-62 but I bet it would match well in my system as well.

[KlipschHead281]

I received my RC-42's this weekend but haven't had a chance to put them in place or hear them. I'll be doing that tomorrow night, I hope.

[flaming eye]

It`s to bad you can`t put them in opposite corners diagonally - like one 2 feet from the right front corner & one 2 feet from the left back corner that`s what I had to do to get even bass all around my HT/living room & I have all 4 of my kg 5.5`s set to large , my x over is also set to 60 hz it sound`s bad-*** no matter where you sit music or movies

[KlipschHead281]

I finally got the RS-42's hooked up and installed. I still have to run the wires into the wall to hide them but figured I'd snap a pic and post it. I had family over right after putting them up and they loved them! Step by step the system is getting there.

[slumberer]

You're not going to like what I have to say, but....you have too much displacement for the size of your room. The bass is basically destroying itself before it can be heard outside your very small listening position. I like to leave my sub on all the time and use night modes when I don't want to shake the walls. I definitely set speakers to large from the source and use individual crossover points in the receiver for all speakers. Running some low frequency sweeps can help you get the proper integration with your mains (probably closer to 40/60 than 80hz) then you can set up a night mode in which you cut LFE but not Subwoofer volume (this way your system will still integrate well with the mains, but not wake the neighbors). Your problem with the tightly focussed sweet spot is easy to see from the first photo; all those drivers are too close together and toed in to sound good anywhere else. If you can move your mains out toward the corners (maybe put one of the subs between one main and the TV and the other in the rear of your listening position) you will find the sound far better outside your central listening position. Room treatments can help tame the bass problems but the deal is that you have too much subwoofer for your room, sorry if this opinion upsets you and feel free to disregard. Good Luck.

[KlipschHead281]

You're not going to like what I have to say, but....you have too much displacement for the size of your room. The bass is basically destroying itself before it can be heard outside your very small listening position.

Adding subs smooths out the bass and allows me to keep the gains down. The bass response is incredible from all 3 positions now that I have the mains cut off at 60hz as I posted earlier.

I like to leave my sub on all the time and use night modes when I don't want to shake the walls. I definitely set speakers to large from the source and use individual crossover points in the receiver for all speakers. Running some low frequency sweeps can help you get the proper integration with your mains (probably closer to 40/60 than 80hz) then you can set up a night mode in which you cut LFE but not Subwoofer volume (this way your system will still integrate well with the mains, but not wake the neighbors).

Ummm what? I don't live in a condo or town home so not sure if this was meant for me??

Your problem with the tightly focussed sweet spot is easy to see from the first photo; all those drivers are too close together and toed in to sound good anywhere else. If you can move your mains out toward the corners (maybe put one of the subs between one main and the TV and the other in the rear of your listening position) you will find the sound far better outside your central listening position. Room treatments can help tame the bass problems but the deal is that you have too much subwoofer for your room, sorry if this opinion upsets you and feel free to disregard. Good Luck.

This doesn't upset me at all, I have covered this already however, I have moved the mains to the corners and tried all sorts of placement, the fix was cutting the mains off below 60hz. As for the toe in, no matter how I point the MFW it sounds the same, I have it toed in for looks, the mains are toed in perfectly for the couch positions. Right now the system sounds incredible, thanks for the input.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I love your enthusiasm, up late and early trying to get irt right. LOL.. Been there, done that, and still tinker sometimes to a point too!

Get a laser pointer.. make the two middle seats be the 100% sweet spot to the outer ears as you toe in the left, right, n center right between you with your speakers. I have a 4 seater HT seat system. the two middle are just fantastic.... the outter two are almost there......as well.

I think it was mOOn used to say build it for yourself... having 8, 12, or 20 seats looks cool, but if your a family of four.. your never gonna use it. BTW, real HT seats out of movie theaters suck after 1-2 hours too!

I spend a lot of time with the kids and some great nights with my wife in the "man cave." I also have the guys over for sports, and if we need more seats, we can always bring some in, or sit on the floor.... Sometimes some major parties and also sing Karaoke in there too...

But the thing is... 90% of the time it is family. Do it for you. Make it sound great for you too.