Any TA guys out there??

[artto]

I'm hearing about the "half back" theory from my friends.....that is that they are waiting to see if the market makes it half way back to 14,000 and they will be selling....I suspect this will be happening for a few years. In addition, the "baby boomers" are the largest group in American history and they are starting to retire.....they will be net sellers, not buyers...it does not look good

Tom, unfortunately, its BS. It won't make you or anybody any money. In fact, I'd go so far as to say your friends might be confusing what they call the "half back" theory with a mathematical FACT.

When a security declines in price, say 50%, it must go up 100% to get back to breakeven. 100% is twice as much as 50%. It's not surprising that typically it will also take aproximately twice as long to get back to breakeven. When you consider that even a rather swift downturn like the one we've recently had, which according to my criteria, began in December 2007, and if the March 2009 low holds, took 15 months, expect at least 30 more months until you recover. Add them together and you've lost 45 months ~ nearly FOUR YEARS tolerating unneccessary stress and risk ~ just to get even.

[artto]

I'm hearing about the "half back" theory from my friends.....that is that they are waiting to see if the market makes it half way back to 14,000 and they will be selling....I suspect this will be happening for a few years. In addition, the "baby boomers" are the largest group in American history and they are starting to retire.....they will be net sellers, not buyers...it does not look good

Tom, on second thought, your friends "theory" could simply be considered a "strategy", and that's fine, as long as they know the rest of the plan.

Also, I think ya'll might be surprised by what the baby boomers do. For me at least, I see more, not less. And even though I'd like to think otherwise, I'm probably more typical than I care to admit (ponytail and all)

[Rockets]

Arto, you're correct you don't know me, and at first glance I think you're reading a LOT more into my responses than is there. My comments concerning market direction, were really my way of saying back to you, there are no absolutes in trading. I didn't mean to imply anything else. Some of your other comments...I'm really just in awe. I don't know how you reached your conclusions as such, when almost every thing I've said has been rather open and lacking in precise detail.

I'm no expert, and I don't pretend to be. I've watched a $2000 investment turn into $40K and all I had to do is sweep it off the table, Did I ...NO... Why not? Lack of a plan? NO, I had one. What I didn't have and still struggle with is control of my emotions. It's the bane of many traders and something I work on every day. I realize that I will never be a successful trader until I have that dragon slain. My other major fault , which really falls back on the first, is second guessing myself. I've blown more trades for failing to execute a plan. Call it a lack of discipline...or emotions or a combination. I don't care, it's my issue and one day I hope to master it. It's easy to say to Plan your trade, and trade your plan...it's just hard to do sometimes.

Before the market fell apart, the charts told me to get the hell out, and I did. I parked my money. Stayed out for months. Then even though I lacked a clear sign, I gew impatient and in reality I got suckered into a mini rebound, I reentered the market and unfortunately like most I rode it down, like the frog placed in a pot of cold water, but slowly boiled alive.Since the bottom I've seen a 38% rebound in my investments, but I wish I'd just stayed out to begin with. It's no real comfort, but I had a lot of Wall Street experts joining me in my stupidity.

I've read, and you probably have as well books by Alexander Elders, John Murphy and others. All well respected technicians. Any one of which probably knows more than all of us on this board combined. Frankly I believe a lot of what they have to say. That said, I don't place any value in Fibonacci numbers either and I realize many of the indicators are derivatives of others. Do I care? Not really. If I use one indicator and find another that's in family, when I'm searching for confirmation or a signal by at least three sources, I don't double count those in family as two, I consider them as one source.

You may not agree with these authors, maybe they don't fit your style of trading. However, I find that they speak to me. I think divergences of indicators vs. price is one of the best tools there is for predicting the markets future. Can you nail it down and say tomorrow is going to be the day the market turns? Hell no you can't, and I don't know anyone that can. However, as a warning of thing to come, I've seen it work too many times to not take heed. Do I think TA is infallable, no it's not. If it was easy everyone would be doing it, and some software weenie would have written a black box program that would nail the market every time. So far, no one has done so, and I doubt if they ever will. Anyone purchasing such a program is just wasting their money IMO. That's not to say one can't use TeleCharts or Metastock to run a prescreening in search of tradeable stocks.

Good luck with your trading.

Your experience in shorting is exactly why I don't and probably never will.

[Coytee]

I've never been a proponent of shorting the market however, shorting it doesn't necessarily have to be the high risk it is associated to be. All you have to do is buy some call options to protect you from being wrong. Of course, the expense of buying the options cuts into what you might make but it will none the less, reduce your risk to a managable level.

As for knowing when to sell something, I'd suggest that no one can do that consistently either. I know I can't and I've been doing this actively/daily since 1986.

What I MIGHT do for someone who has a higher degree of risk taking is simply write some calls against their position or perhaps writing puts to setup the purchase in the first place. If you REALLY think the stock is going to fall back, you might sell an in the money call on it for half your position. If you think it will only pull back a little bit, you might sell an out of the money call.

If you think a stock is going to start going up and want to setup the chance to buy it, you can sell a put on it. If you are aggressive you can sell an in the money put. More conservative, sell an out of the money.

As it was once put to me many many years ago... if you think the market is going to go up, there are opportunities to make money. If you think it's going to go down, there are opportunities to make money. If you think it's going to stagnate and go sideways for a while, there are opportunities to make money.

[Rockets]

Coytee, I've never been an option player. It's on the to do list, but will have to wait until I've mastered a few other things.Many, Many ago I played in the Futures market. My first trade netted a couple of grand in less than a half hour. In the end, I had my *** handed back to me. Partly my fault, and lack of experience, but the biggest reason for me bailing was my Alaron broker and the "system". More than once I got burned by them or the "system". The final straw was when I was on the phone w/ said broker and was long a commodity, I told him to execute a sell order to exit the market. I'm still on the phone w/ the guy and request a confirmation from him the trade was executed. He tells me he thinks it was, as the commodity traded through my exit price, but he can't tell me for certain because the Board of trade has up to 24 hours to post the trade results. Say what??? So, I go away semi-happy. Two days later I get a margin call from him... It seems my sell order was never executed at all, and by the time he realized it, I was already DEEEEEEEEP in the hole. I filed a complaint and got most of my money back, but it was still a bitter lesson to be learned.

I vowed to stay out of that market until I could control my trades and not depend upon a broker. I may have to wait until I retire to play there again. It's such a fast moving market, you dare not take your eyes off of it, and you defintely need to see a confirmation of your trades. Having a preplanned stop order in back of your entry order may not save you.

Just another one of life's lessons...

[Colin]

DJIA Direction

There is only so much that technical analysis can do. When Lucent loses 70% of its value overnight, all charts, (short and long term) become useless; there is no prior pattern to base future decisions upon. When something like that happens, fundamentals return to rule the day.

We have had an extremely sharp recovery since the beginning of March, 2009. The narrow Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) is up 35% to the middle of June, 2009! This bounce comes despite the absence of good news in the market, very high price-earning ratios and relatively low yields.

Moreover, there are no large break-outs, gaps, strong ceilings, or volatile tests of solid support levels on the daily chart. It has been a steady climb; not the up and down “W” pattern of a sharp and volatile turn-around. It is the climb of a sustained bull market.

Why is this? I think it is because money needs a place to go. Let’s consider the alternatives: Bonds? At a peak now, with real interest rates relatively low. Real estate? Possibly at or near the bottom, but no sign of solid recovery yet. Commodities? Possibly. Hard to buy and hold the physical, some raw material stocks might be cheap though. Oil is up to $70 despite a huge inventory build and gold may be topping out near $1,000. Foreign currencies? The massive U.S. spending should eventually make other currencies attractive, but until the U.S. economy recovers, the USD will remain the safe haven of choice. Foreign stocks? Sure China, India and Brazil will make massive gains in future years, but right now, they await the U.S. recovery.

So American stocks then. There are dozens with low P/E and high yields. This is the Warren Buffet move: collect interest now on preferred stocks, convert to common when there are significant gains.

Think we are due for a correction? Certainly. It is the bottoms that make a bull market, not the highs. Yet except for a break-down and break-out gaps in April and then May, both of which were quickly covered, I don’t see a serious test of this sharp recovery. I also don’t see any run-away action that indicates a sharp correction coming.

Therefore, if anything, I suspect that the DJIA may fall into the summer doldrums and drift sideways to down with the lack of good news.

Meantime, I think that the big bank stocks (UYG, FAS) are rushing to free themselves of the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) restrictions so the executives can collect their big bonuses. Once they pay that off, I think you will start seeing quarters with good bank news.

[Colin]

The inventor of mass production line vehicles, Ford Motor (F) has led this sharp DHJIA recovery since March, 2009, along with every other stock, piece of junk and other-wise (a rising tides lifts all boats). Ford has doubled in this period, up $4 from its lows. It moved up faster than the 30 industrials. In fact, it has gaps at $4.50 and $5.75 that are not fully covered. While F may be the last remaining American car manufacturer, it still has a long road ahead of it. There is a loose top at $6.50 now. The summer doldrums could easily see F drift down to fill those gaps. Yet, the market trend and F, since March, seems to be a recovery to higher prices…for now.

[Rockets]

Colin, I agree with you. I'm in the group of people that believes that one of the first things to recover from a recession is infastructure. Companies are likely to start expanding, and infastructure needs to be built. Purchases for vehicles and the such are likely to increase by consumers that have put off buying for the past few years and now need a new car or light truck. Who's the #1 light truck builder? So companies such as CAT and Ford look good to me from the bottom feeder perspective. High risk? You bet, but there's a good chance of greater rewards, if we do indeed get a sustainable bull market running again.

BTW, if you've studied Alan Mulally, the CEO of Ford, you'll quickly find out that the dumbest move Boeing ever made was in letting him go. Which is probably the reason why the street likes him. In short, they believe he can pull it off and so do I. Yeah I know the fundamentals don't support it, so I guess it's a leap of faith, and TA. Yes, I know leaps of faith have no place in planning a move in the market, but I'm willing to make this exception based upon Mulallys' track record at Boeing.

I have one for you. Look for ELX to break out of its channel. I can't promise it, but........ As companies rebound, once again they'll be needing to upgrade their IT, and companies like Cisco, ELX and EMC should begin to move.

Of course, all we need is for that #$%^ head in N. Korea to drop a nuke into South Korea, and we're all back in the toilet again. JMHO

[Coytee]

I've never been an option player. It's on the to do list, but will have to wait until I've mastered a few other things.Many, Many ago I played in the Futures market

I can't explain enough details here that would need to be said BUT... consider this: Who is the 'gambler' and who is the one 'typically' making some money?

Scenario: You go out to Vegas and plunk down a $100 bet. One of two things can happen. You can win and make a million dollar payoff or you can lose, fair? What happens from the perspective of Vegas? They are not making a million dollars off of you BUT might get burned by you (lose their bet) and owe you a million. What they are really doing is selling a LOT of small bets, collecting a LOT of $100's and in general, pocketing most of that change.

If they were continually paying out than they brought in they would not have been in business for the duration they've been in business.

With options you can buy or sell a put or a call. You can also buy or sell a spread. The spread can be a credit spread or a debit spread.

Long story short... writing a call agasint your position (covered call) is a VERY conservative thing to do. So conservative it is actually allowed to happen in an IRA account. I like this the most because we then don't have to ever worry ourselves about tax issues. Also makes a great way to create some cash if need be for example, if someone needs a RMD (required minimum distrubution). You can either sell some underlying asset or write a call agasint them and take that cash out...waiting to see how the call pans out. I've done this for my mother for the last 5 years or so and have yet to sell the first part of her underlying assets. I'm simply using what I'll call "house money" received from selling these covered calls.

You can write a covered put (though some call them naked puts, I contend they can not, by definition, be naked) Regardless... if you are looking to buy stock ABC at $27, then I'd suggest to you it's worth contemplating selling a put on that stock, perhaps selling a $25 or if you are really bold, sell a 30 strike or if you are REALLY confident, sell a $35.

Beauty is, YOU get to choose the asset you are going to sell, YOU get to choose the month of expiration, YOU get to choose the strike price. Once you make those choices, the market will tell you what it's worth and YOU then decide to do or not do it. Only if you are 'wrong' will you be exercised (either put the stock that you wanted to buy at a price you picked in a time frame you chose... or have the stock called away at a price you picked in a time frame you wanted). If you are 'right" and NOT exercised, then you simply keep the premium paid to you, like Vegas keeps your bet.

Point being... I hardly ever (99%) recommend anyone BUY an option of any kind unless it is for a stated reason. Otherwise by purchasing an option, you are merely gambling and may as well throw darts. By selling them, (for example a covered put) you are setting yourself up to either buy the stock you want to buy, or to keep their money (the buyer of that option).

Tough to discuss this when typing... even the disclaimers alone should be 34 pages [:|]

People make option trading out to be something complicated and it doesn't have to be that complicated. I can even draw an example where selling an option is BETTER than buying the actual stock!

[artto]

I'm no expert, and I don't pretend to be. I've watched a $2000 investment turn into $40K and all I had to do is sweep it off the table

This tells me you're a gambler, not a trader, dabbling or otherwise.

[Rockets]

Coytee, I have nothing against options, and agree they can be a very usefull tool. Unfotunately, I know enough about them at the moment to just get me into trouble. Yeah, I'm once bitten, twice shy on any high leverage plays, but really I just have no experience with them. I have three options books by Angell, Cohen and Fontanills sitting on my shelf now that have yet to be read. I'd love to trade options, but frankly I'm not ready yet. Someday...........

I guess I have another nagging issue about options. I have a co-worker that during the last Bull, had (so he claims) over a million bucks in his trading account that he earned trading options. Now the market has his million bucks becasue he gave it all back, by trading options. [:'(] When I finally do get started...I don't want to be like that!! Hell, I can do that now w/o the options[]

Yeah I know all about being tough to discuss while typing...I think my lack of being more verbose at times has caused some to assume things, or draw conclusions about me, which are not true. It's been the story of my life. Strangers take one look at me and see trouble written all over me. More than once i've been told that I'm not the person that they ASSumed I was. I can't fault them though, we all do it...unless your Mother Teresa... That's the bad thing about email also...more than once my wife or someone else mis-read my intentions or words. Problem is, I think I say/write too much as it is.

[artto]

http://www.elitetrader.com/tr/index.cfm?s=17&t=72

I strongly suggest you bookmark this page, make a hardcopy of it, read it and re-read it as necessary, as many times as you have to

And stop blaming your emotions or lack of discipline for your errors when you don't even have a strategy or trading system developed around it. Emotions are part of the equation and come with the territory. If you're not feeling anything you're either dead or not paying attention.

[Rockets]

You know Arto, I want to thank you for the link. I will investigate it, and I do appreciate any positive comments or ideas.

That said...

As far as the rest of your comments...please stop ASSuming things about me to which you have ABSOLUTELY no knowledge. Right off the bat you stated you don't know me, and then ten minutes later, you act like you can read my thoughts. Seriously, your negative attacks, comments and condescending tone are offensive and counter productive. Re-read your own comments and ask yourself how YOU would respond if someone spoke to you in such a manor. You come across like some Richard Cranium. I want to believe you don't mean to, but I really have to wonder. I don't have to wonder about your appreciation of it if done to you. Frankly, it's one reason I've been purposely vague in my reponses. I've read many of your other threads, and did not wish to be subjected to belittling, or engage in some urinating contest. Seriously,

My trading strategy, of which you have inferred several times already, but never bothered to ask, can be found in the book below. There are other books that have echo'd similar rules as well. I had ASSumed you'd read it, I think any trader worth his salt would have, but obviously I'm in error. My bad...my apologies. Not that matters, but I have a book case full of trading books. I've read most of them, but not those dealing with options. I say this to let you know I'm not the freaking idiot that you infer, nor am I ignorant. I lack certain skills that I am amply aware of already...it's just going to take time to hone those.

Your other critiques, I will let lie for now, for they too are baseless, inaccurate assumptions.

With all do respect, I think if you had ever read, Trading for a Living by Alexander Elder you would have learned that emotions do indeed play a significant role in trading.as does discipline. I don't think that you are a clinical psychologist, but he IS one that happens to be a trader,.so if you want to argue the point, email him and tell him he's a D F that doen't know what the hell he's talking about. With 4 1/2 stars out of 201 reviews, I kind of think most people must have gleaned some value his book.

Have I mastered it?? Nope, still a student, not a professional, but I am better than I was before by a large margin. BTW, Are YOU a professional trader?

Here's the link, though I have a feeling you won't make use of it.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw_0_20?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=trading+for+a+living+by+alexander+elder&sprefix=trading+for+a+living

From Library Journal
Soviet-born author and practicing psychiatrist Elder (director, Financial Trading Seminars, Inc.) shares his learning over the years as a professional trader and expert in technical analysis and his principle of understanding the three Ms (Mind, Method, Money), which will strengthen the discipline required to be successful in trading. He explores crucial factors in the markets that most experts overlook, including time, volume, and open interest, and describes little-known indicators to track them profitably. In addition, he covers many of the more technical approaches to investing in futures, such as factoring in the meaning from the Elliott Wave, oscillators, moving averages, Market Logic, and point-and-figure charting. His unique viewpoints in this overly saturated genre explain his particular view that most traders sabotage themselves, while offering tips for others to avoid doing the same. The narration by Richard Davidson soundly guides the listener through this highly specialized work that, although first published seven years ago, remains recommended for university libraries supporting a finance and business curriculum.DDale Farris, Groves, TX
Copyright 2001 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Product Description
Trading for a Living Successful trading is based on three M’s: Mind, Method, and Money. Trading for a Living helps you master all of those three areas:

• How to become a cool, calm, and collected trader
• How to profit from reading the behavior of the market crowd
• How to use a computer to find good trades
• How to develop a powerful trading system
• How to find the trades with the best odds of success
• How to find entry and exit points, set stops, and take profits

Arto, to be clear, I don't hate you by any means, so please don't think otherwise. As much as I may think your intelligent and articulate, I just don't appreciate your negative, self serving comments, and no one else does either. In closing, I will offer you this in all sincerity, I wish you great success in your trading.

[artto]

Listen up Dude.

I don't have to assume anything about you ~ you've told me all I need to know ~ at least as far as trading is concerned.

From all the things you've said, as far as I'm concerned, you don't have a clue as to what a trading strategy is, what a trading system is, or how to develop or implement one, much less follow it. Otherwise you wouldn't have even asked the questions you did in the first place. Or post all the follow up junk in the second place including that book you posted telling everyone that is a good place to start (no its not). Just the fact that you've been combative with someone who knows more about the subject than you do in both theory and practice instead trying to learn something from it is tell tale enough.

Just read, and re-read, and re-read that document. Hopefully in a few years after reading it dozen times or more and studying what's in there, AND THEN PRACTICING IT, you might have an edge being successful at trading. That is the beiginning. Not where you're at now.

You're the one who took $2 grand, turned into $40K and then blew it. You'll never make any money if you don't learn how to keep it. I can keep it. I have the account statements and IRS records to prove it. 2008 was a really bad year for the stock market, one of the worst ever. I had NO LOSSES to show my accountant, only profits, and I don't mean from interest bearing money market funds. "And I'm the bad guy"?

What you've done is fallen into the trap of listening to people who've already figured out that they can make more money by selling you books, software, and "education" than they can make trading for a living.

For your information, this now is how I make a living, so I guess, yes, that would qualify me as a professional trader. I'm not charging you anything, not that it matters.

I'm telling you, if you don't change your attitude, you're doomed to failure and you can forget about anything Dr Elder says, controlling your emotions and discipline, or that link I posted.

Good Luck (lucky for you, that's a large part of the equation)

[Rockets]

<sigh> I really didn't want to go here....

Tell me, one who knows me so well, exactly WHEN in my trading career did I take 2K and turned it into 40K? Was it last week, last month, a year ago or over ten years ago?? Was it before I started learning about TA? As I started and still hadn't gotten a grasp? Or after several years of following Trading for a Living?? You don't know, you have no way of knowing, but yet you feel as though you know me??? Give me a break? You act like you've never made a trading error or mistake in your life, but we both know that's not true. So why is it, only my errors count??

Why don't we talk about your screw ups?? When did you become aware? How long did it take? What books have you read? Have you played options? Futures? What about TA doesn't click for you? Would you agree that not eveyone has the same trading style, or do you hold firm to some religious dogma that your way is the only way?

Answer me this. Have YOU read Trading for a Living? Come Into My Trading Room? How about any of John Murphys' books? Jack D. Schwager ?? No? Have you even heard of them?? Then get off of your high horse. You have no place in telling me that I'm clueless. Let's see, you said that Elders book wasn't a good place to start....Hmmm, there's a whole bunch of people over on Amazon that would disagree with you, but what do 'they' know.... I'm sure they're all village idiots too. It's an excellent place to start if you want to learn about TA, Mind, Method and Money. Is it the last and final word in trading, uh no and I'm not suggesting other wise.

I'm the one that's combative?? Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!! That statement kills me. Lets get this straight, you attack me, not in just one email, but several, and only then do I mildly defend myself and I'm the one that's combative?? What freaking planet do you live in?? Do you think anyone else reading this will buy that?? Seriously dude, look in a mirror. P.T. Barnum you're not.

This one kills me too. I never, ever said you were a "bad guy". ...actually I used to kind of like you believe it or not and I think you are both quite intelligent and gifted actually, but your holier than thou personality sucks. Really, you need to listen to yourself from the perspective of some one else. Are you married??? No need to answer that, I don't want you to embarrass yourself any further.

No trading losses in 2008? WOW!!!! Me either!!!! ...maybe we have something in common after all !!!!. Unfortunately, I expect to have some losses in the future, and in your perfect world, evidently you don't. I know of NO professional trader that has a perfect record year in and year out. NONE. If I were to ever hear of such an individual, I'd run the other way....with my money of course.

Once again, you assume too much about me. You think you know me, but you, like so may other don't know #$%^. about me. How could you possibly? It defies all logic for you to make such a claim. I deliberately held back info, becasue I thought you were phishing...and what do you know...you were. That's pretty low don't you think? You don't know if I have or have not progressed since my worst trade.. . regrettably the one I was honest enough to open up to the world on. Basically, you have no facts or timeline to go on, and yet you know me? yeah, right...Give me a break.

Further anyone that reads this thread, can pretty well ascertain how you are actually a BULLY. You're not offering anything useful....OK, ONE thing, but beyond that, nothing at all except for personal attacks upon me.. It's quite plain to see you're just trying to pick a verbal fight. Why ??? I can only venture to guess, but let me try for a change...

Let me play Dr. Phil, and assume a few things about you. Hey, this might be fun assuming things about someone I've never met before...just trying to walk in your shoes brother....

You know, I could make equally stupid and inflammatory remarks about your trading mistakes, but just exactly what would it gain me? Your admiration?? To prove that I can be just as mean spirited as you? Do you think your passive aggressive attacks on me and negative comments will make me admire you? Is that it??? Holy Cow ... That IS it, isn't it?? OK, now I get it... I've noticed you've taken this tack several times in the past on other forum members, belittling them with your condescending tone, while trying to appear helpful. You're a 'right' fighter aren't you? C'mon admit it, this is Dr. Phil remember?? You can't stand it when someone else challenges your knowledge can you? It just pisses you off to no end doesn't it?? Does that give you some kind of superiority rush? Is that what makes you tick my friend? In your mind you probably think you're bestowing upon us mere mortals your great knowledge of the market and Universe.....Psssssssssst...you not. You've offered us N O T H I N G , sans one link to your trading utopia.

Let me ask you, what is the difference between a professional gambler and a professional trader? I've got news for you...nothing, they both take calculated risks, and both have a firm control of their emotions. For some reason I have a feeling you'll want to argue the point, which is too bad for it just will expose you further. I challenge you to tell any professional gambler/trader otherwise. Am I a professional? Nope, but I'd venture to guess that neither are you. Emotions don't play in the market? Ever hear of crowd psychology? Oh, I forgot you never read the book.I hate to say this but your intelligence level is starting to slide on me....you're no longer the ten I thought you were.

Yeah, we both caught a lucky break last year, but so what?? I'll admit I'm still in training, and still have a LOT to learn. You on the other had just want to brag to me and everyone else how great you are without sharing any of your techniques, or methodology. Pity, but that does say a lot about you.

Look Arto, if you have something constructive to add, I'm all ears my friend. However, if it's something just to stoke your ego or more condescending trash talk, please save it for someone else. Seriously. I don't care about your ego. Not one bit... I could care less, and you no longer impress me. I have my issues to deal with, and apparently you have yours. The difference between us, is I'll admit to mine. How about you?? yeah I...didn't think so.

As it stands, I'm very sorry I ever started this thread. I was hoping for an exchange of ideas, and instead it's been hijacked by an egotistical omnipotent jack ---.. You've killed this thread with your personal attacks, and. therefore should be quite proud. I'd ask for a show of hands, but you wouldn't believe them either.

Ok, the LAST WORD is yours. I'm willing to give it to you, I mean you are the RIGHT fighter, so feel free, it's yours. Enjoy it, Savor it, After all, I've exposed you for what you are and I'm done with this thread. There's no need for me to post any further, nor read your reply. I have better thngs to do than to argue w/ a snobbish fraud. BTW, you know what they say about arguing with a fool don't you??? I don't want to remove any doubt by continuing, so please have at it.

Once again, good luck in your trading....I still don't hate you, but my opinion is mightly low..........along with everyone else that read this. Well done... sport.