I Made the New ALK Universals, a Few More Qs

[nola]

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Here are the pics. Not pretty, but hopefully they will get tested late tonight or tomorrow

Q: How exactly does one match caps? I don't think the Sonicaps used on my Heritage gear were matched, etc. Mr. Ks caps all had numbers on them, but I have no idea what they mean.

Q: If I get the Ctites tweeter and need to attenuate it, should I just use a smaller cap to the tweeter in a AA network or simply buy a volume control (L pad, or some type of potentiometer as found at partsexpress, radioshack, etc) for the Klipsch AA or ALK Uni networks?

Q: I tried removing the solder from the inductor. Some flaked off, I got some off with the soldering iron tip. But could not get all of it off. If I did short a loop or 2, how would I know and can it damage anything?

As stated on the prior thread, I only soldered 1 autotransformer cnxn, held the others with disconnects, and put the 7.5 uF cap directly into the terminal strip.

Any other thoughts appreciated.

[nola]

2nd pic:

Sorry the pix came out so tiny.

Can repost if anyone asks with full size pics, but didn't want to waste space - since I do not know how to upload more than 1 pic per post, and I have 5 pics.

[J.4knee]

Here are the pics. Not pretty, but hopefully they will get tested late tonight or tomorrow.

Q: How exactly does one match caps? I don't think the Sonicaps used on my Heritage gear were matched, etc. Mr. Ks caps all had numbers on them, but I have no idea what they mean. You need to use a capacitance meter or a good RLC meter to measure the capacitance of the Caps, the numbers are usually part numers and some number that looks like .22uf this number is the vaule of the capacitor in this instance a .22 microfarad capacitor.

Q: If I get the Ctites tweeter and need to attenuate it, should I just use a smaller cap to the tweeter in a AA network or simply buy a volume control (L pad, or some type of potentiometer as found at partsexpress, radioshack, etc) for the Klipsch AA or ALK Uni networks? The Crites tweeters from my experience seem to be about a db or two less in output than the K77's so I doubt you'll need to attenuate them. You could get Al's tweeter attenuator if you need to trim the output down some.

Q: I tried removing the solder from the inductor. Some flaked off, I got some off with the soldering iron tip. But could not get all of it off. If I did short a loop or 2, how would I know and can it damage anything? You need to use either solder wick or a solder sucker to get all the excess or residual solder off the xfmr terminals.

As stated on the prior thread, I only soldered 1 autotransformer cnxn, held the others with disconnects, and put the 7.5 uF cap directly into the terminal strip.

Any other thoughts appreciated.

[nola]

Thx for the reply. I tried reposting the pix, and they came a bit larger this time, but still not that big.

I did understand the uF of the caps as labelled by the manufacturer. However there were other numbers on the caps which were written in grease pencil and had numbers ranging from about 3 to 25. These were the numbers that I did not understand. Maybe Mr K tested these on a machine like you suggested and tried to match them this way. Maybe these grease numbers were some relative value. The 2 solen 24 uF caps had grease numbers that added up to being only 1 number apart for each set. The Hovlands were a few numbers apart as were 7.5 uF solens. The 2.2 uF sonicaps were about 25% different (grease numbers).

I thought others had said that the C125 ran "hot", so they might need attenuating. Mr Ks attenuators cost almost $90/pr. Potentiometers, L pads, or volume controls cost about $2-20/pr. I had previously used a cheap RS vol control to balance out an Academy center channel which was running "hot" compared to the Khorns. Prehaps not elegant, but it worked. If Mr.Ks attenuators were lower in price, if needed I would buy them in a heartbeat. I have no doubt that they are top of the line. However why get an expensive solution needlessly?

For such a tiny amount of spilled solder, I was not sure either of these would work. (Several found at Radioshack website for $5-11, under desolder search term).

The 10 ohm, 10 watt resistor was left "dangling" in mid air as far away from everything as possible. Mr K's instructions mentioned that this could get hot. Did I do this correctly? (It is the thin green tubular structure near the autotransformer).

Also note the big sort of loops of excess red inductor wires. Not looped near the main coils though, so I guess they are ok, even if not elegant. I simply did not want to have to redo / de-enamel and resolder those Litz ends / connections. One of the 1.3 mH solid core wires was routed above the terminal strip (ALK Uni 1). Due to being a bit off on rotating that inductor coil, it wouldn't work well to route it along the back of the terminal strip. I also couldn't figure out where to glue the 24 uFs on the board if that wire was routed per directions.

Although not in the pics, I did hot glue the terminal strip labels. Not sure how long they will stick. Again the problem was only getting a tiny amount of glue from the gun. By the time I applied the labels, some of the glue must have cooled a bit. I have some "Gorilla glue", bought for applying some weather stripping to my new (but used) French doors (hey, it's only 4 yrs post Katrina) that got put in Friday. Maybe I should have used that stuff.

NOLA

[Deang]

You don't have to attenuate Bob's driver.

What I can't figure out is that with such a well written manual, and the plethora of good pictures for those networks -- why you just didn't follow the pattern. I apologize if that sounds harsh.

I really recommend to those who have limited soldering experience to spend some time practicing before attacking a project like this.

[Al Klappenberger]

The grease pencil numbers on the capacitors are simply reference numbers. I line up a large quantity of caps and number them. I use an LCR meter connected to a computer to measure and record the value of each one. The computer sorts them from low to high. They are then divided into matched pairs to be used in the left and right networks. I can usually get the pairs to match within +-.5% on single caps and much closer on dual pairs like the 24+24 uF set. When you build the netwroks, simply wipe the numbers off with a rag or tissue.

Al K.

[nola]

Dean G - no offense taken. I work in an X ray dep't and before we do any procedure or use any equip't on a patient we check it out and/or do a dry run as needed. I did not do that with Mr Ks Uni. I should have read thru the directions twice and laid everything out. Had I done so, and if the inductors and caps could be placed closely together (if that is 1 of the main goals, close but without crosstalk from adj coils, etc), I actually would have scrapped much of his assembly. I say this as follows (with total respect to Mr K):

The 7.5 uF cap can be directly screwed into the therminal via its lead as the 6.2 and 1 uF caps are no longer used. Thus the solder spike is not needed, nor is the extra wire.

I would move the AT to the back of the board, where the dual caps of 7.2 uF were in the orig plan. (Bob Crites lists a bevy of in and out terminal leads as part of his Klipsch replacement AT, with about a 1 dB diff per set of in and out leads. Is this also practical with the AT that Mr K uses, or simply overkill?)

I would add a thick dowel or small vertical board to mount the 2 24uFs vertically or on top of each other where the AT is now and move the solder pin to that same area too.

I would move the big 1.3 mH inductor closer by mounting it vertically, maybe near the 0.3 mH or place the 1.3 mH below the board or above the board perhaps on its own shelf. Yes, my litz leads look beyond goofy.

I am not certain about where to place the ALK Uni. I might place it on top of the Khorn.

Pls keep in mind that the existing 14g wire that I had is fine, as per the wire. But the insulator used by Philips was a complete disaster. The only way tell which wire is which is whether it has squared or rounded plastic. The wires are very close and very difficult to cut to spread apart without cutting thru to the wire itself. That was most of my wire trouble. I have great wire of other AWGs and plenty of AudioQuest bare wire for interconnects. I finally went to HD and bought more 14 AWG.

I find the AT wire solution, well, in-elegant. I would have looped bare wire into the terminals for mid plus and minus. I would have given them long leads back to the AT. Attachments would have been with disconnect plugs at the AT (unless somebody has a better, non soldered plan), not to the terminal spades. So only 2 wires from the AT, not 7, and versatility would be maintained.

Forgive me for tooting a horn: in our hospital we get many patients referred to do procedures that are not done elsewhere or failed elsewhere. A big part of my job is figuring out how to do procedures and get from point A to point B, where lots of vital structures are nearby, etc. I live in a 3D, not a 2D problem solving world. I have to figure out how to do this stuff. If I can't, the only other choice for the patients is the OR. I apply the same reasoning here. If a goal is to keep stuff tight (but not like the round cup H II), ok - we can all do that in 3D. If it is ok to spread the stuff around and 2D is fine, ok too - just let me know.

These forums are teaching me all the stuff I never learned when I was 15 about electrical stuff. (Big smile) PS - my residents think I am working for Al Queda and making things (no Colter, not to put on top of other things) that go tick,tick.......LOL

If it gets below 85 degrees in the main room, I will test out the ALKs tonight. Darn heat wave....

[Marvel]

I should have read thru the directions twice and laid everything out. Had I done so, and if the inductors and caps could be placed closely together (if that is 1 of the main goals, close but without crosstalk from adj coils, etc), I actually would have scrapped much of his assembly. I say this as follows (with total respect to Mr K)

You are actually not too far off from Al's layout. The biggest problem would be interaction between the three inductors, and looking at your pics, it might not be a problem at all. My own crossovers are a lot simpler, and I have my parts spaced out a lot more, mostly because I had the room.

It is a real art to do these and make them look pretty.

Bruce

[nola]

Bruce,

I agree. It is an art. And I am a rank amateur here. As per a 3D layout, keep in mind that testing out the xover and AT settings would always be done with the xover not sealed behind a Khorn. Thus access to the AT taps would not be an issue. However, as the Belle or a LaScala does not need to sit in a corner, that is a different story. But even here, testing it out on top or to the side of the spkr would make life easier. In my case, I have 8-12 feet of test lead wires (yup, that crap Philips 14 AWG wire), to make A/B comparisons easier. Mr K does mention the component interactions for the extreme slope xover builds.

Hey if we add tube caps and tube inductors we add to prettiness factor too, LOL.

I would still like Dean G, Mr K, et al to comment on passive vs active xovers and EQing (re Behringer deq and dsc? 2496 devices).

Thx

Brian

[nola]

Search terms: compare differences ALK Universal crossover network to vs Klipsch AA xover network; wooden horn; magnetised screw 0.245 mH inductor.

First results, all tested from my LT Khorn, RT Khorn and subwoofer usually disconnected, at 11pm - 1 am:

1) Both my N '75 and T 1979 AA networks (Khorn N and LaScala T) had magnetic screws thru the .245 mH inductor. They were removed (see other thread). When I listened to the speakers running all components at the same time I not hear any difference screws in or out, nor with a magnet (refrig note magnet) adj to it. I did not test the components separately trying this. Boy, compared to the Solen Litz 16 AWG .24s, the Klipsch.245s look iddy biddy tiny. I will get new non magnetic screws.

2) When listened to full range with Barry White's Greatest Hits CD and Elton John 60th B'day DVD, the diffs were - to me - minor, ALK vs recapped AA.

However, when the woofer, mid and tweeter were assessed separately, diffs were significant. (NB: I never tested my KHs, H Is, nor H IIs this carefully, 1 component / driver at a time, following my Crites Sonicap recaps.)

- stock K 77 tweeter (others not connected). Well, I could not hear much from it from either network, AA nor ALK. Even pulled open an H II to test the tweeter lead, attaching it to the H II K 76, in case something was wrong wth my K 77 - again not loud at all. Either I have high frequency hearing loss or the tweeters are simply not loud. In fact, to me they were both kind of quiet. As memory serves me, my hearing test test a yr ago only tested me up to 4000 Hz. Isn't that roughly the cutoff between midrange and tweeter? Has anyone else listened to 1 tweeter at a time / in isolation? Is it "loud" like the midrange? In short, run full range I first thought the highs were better off the ALK. But just listening to the tweeter alone disproved that. Makes me wonder if there really any point in getting the Crites C125. I really would like feedback about tweeter loudness, etc.

K 55 V stock metal horn and K 55 M coupled to the ALK wooden trachorn - others not connected. This was interesting. The 2 horns were clearly different when listened to separately. The diffs were clearly more notable off the ALK. I think the dynamic range of the 55m/woodie was less than the stock 55v/metal. I will have to test some more in case this was due to the 55v vs 55m driver. I pulled a 55v off the LaScala to do the test, but have not done it yet. What I heard seems to run counter to what others have posted. Mr K, others please chime in; I thought the wooden horn would have done better.

Not using the RS SPL meter, it took me a while to figure out setting off the ALK AT (transformer) would match the loudness of the AA, in order to make comparisons fair (I used the next to least attn settings.The setting mentioned by Mr. K for the AT was much quieter than the AA). I did not do this until almost the end of my tests. At first, I thought the AA was better, but at near equal sound levels (best guess by ear) the ALK and AA were both pleasing but different. Not sure how to explain it though. Could it be due to each network having somewhat different cutoffs per the mid range horn,? I guess. I have to admit, that listening to the mid metal horn alone seemed ok, with both networks.

K33 woofer (others not connected) - again, maybe due to different cutoffs to mid horn, the ALK seemed to have a wider range than the AA. Just listening to the K33 alone is not a very pleasing experience.

Sub listened to / felt with others not running was interesting, but not especially pleasing. Now, WOW pods or U 571 depth charges are another story

The ALK I used for these tests was not the one with solder spot on the .20 mH coil (just to be fair, although that one sounds nice too). The AA I used was the only 1 I recapped, pulled from the same LT KH. Of the 2 wooden horns that I have, I have only listened to 1 so far.

Pls keep in mind that I had 8-12 feet of test wires (14 AWG) running from the appropr network to the LT KHorn. I was not a fast lead switcher betw networks either. Also, I only tested the 2 sources mentioned via a stereo setting. My 990 does not do mono.

All comments are both welcome and appreciated.