Will speaker cable make a difference?

[Seb]

Sorry for the copyright issues...

"Seb, One of the points I'm trying to make is... it is all intrinsic value. The effect of a $5 or $5000 cable upgrade is worth something different to each of us. Some are ready, willing and able to pay mucho $ for what might be little sonic value to you or I, whilst others would not spend $50 for HUGE sonic improvements in their system that you or I would detect."

Couldn't agree more. Why do you think I have to fight everybody around me to justify my future speaker purchase?

"Additionally, sometimes the more expensive cable doesn't improve the sound and the contrapositive is true(Sometimes the least expensive does), although generally better=more $$."

Now THAT would be funny... Imagine? Rat Shack wire sounding better than some high-end, high-priced exotic? Talk about losing brand equity!

"It is, of course, a system dependent decision. I would agree that there are diminishing returns for any system with regards to cable upgrade,however, I would disagree with the notion that the money is better spent on the speakers alone. The playback chain is just that, a chain. Any weak link in that chain is going to yield poor performance."

Again, I definitely agree. I was taking speakers as an example, not a generalisation, because it is widely belived (understood?) that speakers are the component that impacts the sound of a system the most. It is true that the playback chain can be cracked open by a weaker link.

"I am of the opinion that since the typical cost of cables within a system are 10-20% of it's total value and an upgrade would be a lower % of that total, it would seem to me the biggest bang for the buck might well be the cables. In Schmidty's case it might be an additional separate stereo amp for only $350 driving those speakers with $150 left over for cables(his 30's are not the weak link here...IMHO)."

Okay, here's where I'd like to add the following: the cable expense for, say, somebody who purchases a set of Energy Take 5.2 should be a higher percentage than for the guy who buys a Klipschorns all around using all separates. Why? Because you need a certain minimum quality of the wire so that that link doesn't affect the sound of the system, or rather affects it in such a minimal way that the system isn't hampered by it. Sure you will use better cable if you're running the Khorns than if you're stuck with the Energy system, but are you going to spend 1500% more on the cables? I wouldn't. Let's run the numbers: a guy buys a set of Take 5.2 plus a receiver. Let's say it runs him $800. Another guy spends 2K per pair of Khorns <3 total, $6K>, plus 6K on a pre/pro and separate amplifiers. The second guy (lucky him) has a total system cost of $12,000, 1500% more than the first guy, who only spent $800. The first guy uses big-gauge Home Depot wire and Radio Shack Gold interconnects, at a total cost of, say, $100. Should the second guy reasonably spend $1,500 on cables? Hell no! Before he does, he'll acquire some AlK xovers, add a separate amp for the center channel, treat his room acoustically, whatever. Those tricks would in my opinion yield a much better return on investment than that huge additional expense in cables... I think $700 worth of cables and interconnects at the most would allow for cables to get out of the way, and stop being the limiting factor in that person's system.

"I am not making a judgement call here on anyone specifically, but if I'm running a $3000 pr of B&W 802 S3 and Radio Shack speaker wire, what am I to gain by selling my 802's at a loss and spending $500 more on another used pair of 802's. Upgrade for "me" would be a pair of $6000 801's and I'm still running Rack Shack cable? I'd gladly go from AQ Lapisx3 to Kimber 1030 for my dollar. Would I get more by upgrading Forte's to Chorus instead of 2 sets of AQ Ruby to AQ Lapisx3??"

Well of course sometimes spending additional money on speakers is not an option, but like I said above, this was only an example. In your case, I would think acoustically treating your room or maybe start delving into surround sound would be viable options, among other numerous upgrades... because you have the minimal cable quality required not to interfere, at least not in a major way, with the rest of your NICE system.

"For me, cables DO make a difference, for better or worse... and so do the electronics."

Cool! Everybody and his ears is entitled to his opinion, last I checked!!

"In sum, since I am of the opinion that it is a worthwhile effort to upgrade cables within a system and others here MAY NOT feel the same, I am simply and graciously offering to rid those who feel encumbered by their ownership an even swap of my terrific cable."

You're exaggerating again. I don't think any sane-minded person, unless driven by charity, would exchange exotic cable for cheap wire, for two reasons: 1) it probably won't sound better, and 2) there is a reason why they spent the money for better cables in the first place, might indicate that they are veering towards your side of the issue rather than mine, and therefore won't give you their precious cable. As for me, if I had expensive exotic speaker wire, I would gladly exchange it for some big-gauge Home Depot PLUS additional financial incentives. But I don't, so I guess unless I find some in my garage like Justin, I'll have to stick with my big-gauge Home Depot and Radio Shack Gold interconnects!

P.S.: Oh, and of course this is all semi-educated, relatively sane-minded, light-wallet encouraged OPINION. Mine.

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This message has been edited by Seb on 03-01-2002 at 11:56 PM

[T2K]

Seb, wondering what brand wire/interconnects you tried with your system vs your Rat Shack stuff to arrive at your opinion?

Keith

[mike stehr]

Coat hangers and Lampcord, Brother!

Bad Topic, Seb.

[SOUNDJUNKIE]

Seb-You make my point for me while at the same time taking comments out of context. That's a neat trick. Like this one:"Additionally, sometimes the more expensive cable doesn't improve the sound and the contrapositive is true(Sometimes the least expensive does), although generally better=more $$."

Seb says:Now THAT would be funny... Imagine? Rat Shack wire sounding better than some high-end, high-priced exotic? Talk about losing brand equity!

"The LEAST expensive" here being between two cables being compared Seb, not the absolute inexpensive vs most expensive. Strike one. Although I did find some non labeled 7 ga Monster type, pulled from a custom install that did sound better than my than AQ Midnight 3's, in MY system. Remember that Seb? Sorry, forgot you weren't there to actually hear them . Then Seb takes another shot with this, my statement:"It is, of course, a system dependent decision. I would agree that there are diminishing returns for any system with regards to cable upgrade,however, I would disagree with the notion that the money is better spent on the speakers alone. The playback chain is just that, a chain. Any weak link in that chain is going to yield poor performance."

So Seb responds:Again, I definitely agree. I was taking speakers as an example, not a generalisation, because it is widely beli(e)ved (understood?) that speakers are the component that impacts the sound of a system the most. It is true that the playback chain can be cracked open by a weaker link". Well, which one is it Seb? Do the speakers MAKE the system? ARE they THE system? Are they PART of a system? HOW MANY CRACKS MUST WE HAVE IN THIS CHAIN OF YOURS BEFORE THE "SPEAKERS" NO LONGER COMPENSATE FOR BAD SOUND!! With anywhere between 2 components(receiver + speaker cable) to upwards of 20 components(INCLUDING ALL CABLES) in an all "seperates" system, the "SPEAKERS ARE THE COMPONENT THAT IMPACTS THE SOUND OF A SYSTEM MOST"? Now playing left field...Seb.

But Seb, I thought I made it clear I wasn't taking about any ONE comment but YOU assume I AM talking about yours. So... since you want to pick my words apart I am up to the challenge. You said what again?:"It is widely beli(e)ved(understood?) that speakers are the component that impacts the sound of a system the most". By who Seb? You? I've gotten excellent sound out of Radio Shack® speakers(circa 1979) with a Realistic receiver that I couldn't get out of my $2599 retail PSB Stratus GOLDi's with $3000 worth of electronics. Certainly my PSB's are "widely regarded" by many to be better than the old speakers from Rack Shack? After all, NONE the Rack Shack speakers EVER appeared in Stereophile mag or their home theatre rag. Do you believe that also Seb? Obviously my old receiver was doing a good job and contributed to the sound,if not more so than my now very expensive electronics. After all Seb, where do all those electrons(holes) originate from?~~~~~~~~~ Seb then says: "You're exaggerating again. I don't think any sane-minded person, unless driven by charity, would exchange exotic cable for cheap wire, for two reasons: 1) it probably won't sound better, and 2) there is a reason why they spent the money for better cables in the first place, might indicate that they are veering towards your side of the issue rather than mine, and therefore won't give you their precious cable." Seb, Seb, Seb... this isn't about whose side anyone is on, it's about making my point, the rediculous offer I made to illustrate my point and the sarcasm that goes along with it. The sarcasm was right up front for all to see... except you. Strike Duo. You REALLY make my point for me here: "...2) there is a reason why they spent the money for better cables in the first place...". Well if they are, why aren't YOU doing it also if you think their reason for doing so is righteous, and your defense of them feverish in nature??? Next batter. I know it's tough to see your words picked apart in front of all to observe and I hope I didn't cause you too much trauma in doing so, but you did start this along with a flame from another thread just days prior. Peace.

[Steve Phillips]

Was going to stay out of this,but here is what I found;

Almost 2 years ago I finaly found and bought my K-Horns(1K for '77)I have had Klipsch since '77.In '90 bought new KG 3s,started using Monster XPHP(or is it HPXP).Have had many series Klipsch since from KG 3,KG 4,Chorus I,Forte I all of which I used the same Monster cable(well broken in by now)Anyway to the point(sorry);

I spent a few bucks on some DH Labs Silver Sonic T-14(same stuff that dbflash tried).WOW,no difference.Well I paid for them,so I left them on.About a month later I got an urge to mess.Put the Monster back on after several hours of Jazz and I listened to the same music long enough to decide I had to put the DH Labs back on.Dull,lifeless mids and highs,almost like putting a sock in the mid horn.Soundstage fell apart,just overall unpleasant.The bass was a bit better,somewhat deeper maybe,enough that I bi-wired with the Monster to the bass section and Labs to the top end.

I sold a pair of '96 Heresy IIs and set them up in the living room using the monster first,then the DH Labs.Asked my wife what she thought and she could tell the difference and liked the DH Labs as well.

These are just my findings and my ears.

I would love to try different wires,but spending green on speaker wire can start to hurt after a while.

Would love to try Audio Quest,Kimber and some others.

Wire size above 12 is a waist unless you need some 100+feet.

There is a lot about the # of strands,silver-copper,it goes on and on.

I don't believe in spending 5 or 6 hundred a foot,but I do believe there is a different sound to be heard,better or worse,you have to decide.

Electronics do make differences in a big way.

That's my dollars worth

This message has been edited by Steve P on 03-02-2002 at 09:07 PM

[Seb]

Wow! That was unexpected... I apologize to all that had to see that ugly thing, whatever it was...

I find it pretty amusing to find the word peace after such a post, SOUNDJUNKIE... But anyways.

Rest assured, SOUNDJUNKIE, I wasn't trying to attack your point or "pick apart" anything, or take your comments out of context, I was just trying to structure my argument in a clearer fashion to make my OPINION clear to all. Guess that didn't work, huh?

I apologize if it seemed like I was attacking you personally, I was just using your post as a kind of springboard to express my counter-arguments to the opinion you and others hold that it is worthwhile to spend lots of money on expensive cable. I don't think that somehow your opinion is inferior to mine, or that it isn't justified, or anything, I just don't adhere to the same point of view!

1) when I talked about Radio Shack wire compared to super-exotic brand name wire, I was exaggerating. Admittedly, that may not be the most rational thing to do, but I guess I was just using sarcasm... Guess I'm not the only one not to catch it, huh?

2) I'd like to know how I "took a shot" at your statement that the audio system was a chain by stating I AGREED with you?

3) The speakers are a PART of the system, imo. Again imo, they are an IMPORTANT part of the system, and they are the component that impacts the sound most because they are the component that is the least good at actually reproducing the sound without coloration. therefore, the better the speaker, the least coloration (or distortion) the sound has. talking about amps, for example, it is my opinion that they impact the sound much less, because as a general rule it is more difficult to tell several good amplifiers running inside of their limits (i.e. no clipping) apart than to tell several good speakers apart (even though I have been able to, and I'm sure tube amps impart a very different sound that their SS counterparts). same for CD players, for example, assuming they are of relatively good quality and use decent DACs. and same for the wires again IMO.

4) As to who believes the same as me, i.e. speakers have more impacts than other links in the playback chain? Well, for one, there was an article in a relatively recent Sound and Vision magazine, if you're looking for industry sources, where the person said he'd spend 99% of his budget on speakers if he could find amps and dvd players for 75 cents each... or something to that effect. Now of course he was exaggerating. Also, I have seen a great many comments in bulletin boards such as this one, where knowledgeable people expressed the same opinion. And you must tend to the same, since you are using speakers that cost almost as much as the rest of your system together... or am I assuming too much?

5) Last thing: when I said that people who paid a lot for their cables must have had a good reason, I don't feel I made my argument any weaker, I was just acknowledging the fact that some people had a different opinion than mine, and that that opinion was fully justified and as valuable as mine or any other, if not more than mine given my lack of experience in the field. I guess it's something I can do, accept that others have a different opinion, allow them to share it, and examine it, agreeing that it holds value.

About the "stab" I took at you in the other thread (BTW, I had to search for a thread invloving both of us since I didn't even remember that one, tells you something about my intention to "flame" you... maybe you put too much importance in very small things.), it was done in bad humor I guess, and I now have apologized. Obviously my tone didn't properly come through, as I am against watermarking of any sort, as you are. Maybe I was just reacting to the harshness of your comment with some sarcasm. Funny how you can use it and it's fine and I can't formalize myself or comment on it, and you get so pumped up over mine.

Anyways, I'd just like to say that I really wasn't trying to put you down or anything, or pick apart your argument, or really anything at all with the wrong intentions. Just trying to express my opinion, sorry if I offended you, and I apologize again to third parties that might have been offended too. Cheers!

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http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment

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This message has been edited by Seb on 03-02-2002 at 11:57 PM

[mike stehr]

You have really offended me Seb.

If you wanna play with some cheap wire tweaks,

try archiving AA cables.

Keep a open mind when you read these threads,

'cause you will wanna laugh at how deep these guys get.

Thats it for me, I don't do wire posts anymore.

I keep it to myself.

THANX!

[Seb]

yeah, I never took part in wire threads before, guess I'll steer away from now on...

I always wondered why they got so ugly. I guess I still wonder how this one did...

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[Audio Flynn]

Seb,

It will take some time to sweat the details in your system to embrace the performance of fine tweaks.

Add speaker placement and resonance elimination to those wire tweaks previously discussed.

I would get a bit touchy if someone trashed my Audio Quest Coral between my DAC and preamp.

[montigue]

$500 spent on speaker wire is insane...$300 spent on speaker wire is insane....Even $200 spent on SPEAKER WIRE IS INSANE!

Now if you owned a pair of $8000 speakers then I guess I can understand spending some money on wire for peace of mind.

But seriously, if you get to the point in this hobby where you are actually spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on speaker wire. You should really think to yourself. "Am I going insane"? or "do I need to get a life"?

Take control of your hobby, don't let it take control of you.

[Seb]

Flynn, yeah, I know, i'm still at a basic level here, I have a couple major upgrades to do before I really start tweaking fine details.

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http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment

http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection