Late 70's Era Integrated Yamahas versus Mid 80s Yamaha Seperates

[thefluffy]

I have been enjoying my my Cornwalls and LaScalas through a CR-1020 Yamaha Integrated. I really enjoy the sound of it. Sadly, it is not mine to keep indefinitely. In planning for a future all heritage Home Theater set up, I have began considering some of the Yamaha seperates from the mid 80s. I've especially been look at the M-60 and M-65 power amps from Yamaha. Reviews on them are excellent and they seem to hold a great value for approx. $150 to 200 an amp. The auto class A on these also intrigues me.

So, here are a couple questions. How does the sound of these amps compare to the CR-1020 I am currently using? Has anyone had an opportunity to compare these? I must say I really enjoy the sound of the CR-1020. To me, it sounds superior than the sound that is produced from my Dad's Denon AVR 3803 that replaced it in his set up. Additionally, how difficult would it be to use say 3 of these M-60 or possibly M-65 power amps with an Outlaw Audio Decoder/Preamp like the 990 or possibly a Denon AVR 3808.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to figure all this out while I have the time to research. I'm currently deployed as a member of the USAF and have some free time to research this while I save the extra money I make while deployed.

Thanks,

Daniel

[Bill H.]

Here you go.............just replace with your own ! Only 379.00.

http://www.classicaudio.com/forsale/yam/CR1020.html

[thefluffy]

Bill,

Thanks for the link. However for that price, I could get 2xM-60s. I'm trying to plan for a Home Theater set up down the road. I intend to eventually use seperate power amps for all my channels in that setup. I actually considered using multiple CR-1020s or possibly 2020s or 2040s for power amps. I'm just unsure I want to pay that much money per a power amp for my setup. Not to mention that it is impossible to find a replacement pot for the volume nobs.

I am really curious if anyone has compared the sound and perforamnce of the M-60 and M-65 seperates to the late 70s era Yamaha integrated amps.

Daniel

[Islander]

I had a CR-1020 from 1977 until 2004 and was always happy with it, but when I replaced it in 2004 (due to the second or third failure of the power switch, plus one channel had failed) with a 1998 RV-V392, I really liked the improved sound. The next year I got an RX-V750, which improved the level of detail in the sound even more, although it didn't at first sound as warm as the 392.

As well, the AV receivers are designed from the start to be used in home theatre systems, so they already have the multiple (5 to 7) channels needed, plus all the decoders for Dolby, DTS, and whatever other programs are used on movie and music discs. They also come with the LFE/sub out connections and bass management systems needed to properly integrate a sub into your system. A subwoofer is definitely needed for movies, but is needed by most speakers for music, too.

The CR-1020 was great in its time, but much better stuff is available now, especially if you're setting up a multi-channel system.

Finally, using more than two channels of external power amplification is easy with an AV receiver, not so much with a stereo receiver. The Yamaha AV receivers make good pre-pro (pre-amp/processor) units if you want to add a separate power amp or amps later. Many forum members are using them in this way, including me.

The 12V trigger on the newer receivers mean that they'll turn on any power amp with a 12V trigger input, so switching on your receiver also switches on all the power amps, which is pretty convenient.

Using vintage audio gear may be fun and inexpensive, but the newer gear does sound better. Those engineers haven't been idle all these years, and the improvements keep on coming.

[Bill H.]

For something new, alot of folks have commented that they like this Unit from Emotiva !

http://emotiva.com/upa7.shtm

[thefluffy]

Thanks for the input so far guys. One of the primary reasons I am looking at the vintage stuff is price. I simply don't have the finances to afford some of the newer seperate poweramps. Though, the Emotiva looks to be potentially affordable down the road. I don't particularly care about the 12v trigger on and off. I am ok with turning the power amps on seperately. I want the seperate power amps because I feel that most of the integrated AVRs that I have heard are lacking in the amplifier sections. This includes a couple of higher end yamaha's that I listened to at Custom Audio as well as the AVR 3803 and the 3808. I like the idea of being able to slowly piece it together to. It would be more affordable and easier for me to start with buying 1 power amp then buying another one until I have all the ones I need.

Lastly, I really hope someone could answer my question. How do the Yamaha seperates such as the M-60/M-65 compare to the older CR-1020 and its brothers. I hope that doesn't rude. I really do appreciate the input so far especially Islander's input on the newer Yamahas compared to the Cr-1020.

Thanks,

Daniel

[thefluffy]

On a quick seperate note, the THD Figures on the Emotive are pretty high. Any thoughts on this?

Daniel

[russ69]

Fluffy,

As Islander said, the old gear from the 70-80s does not sound all that good (unless it was one of the few good high-end products. think thousands of dollars). Even the newer low priced consumer electronics sound better. Islander summed it up, listen to this advice.

On your second note, THD means nothing, if it did, I wouldn't be able to listen to my 1% THD tube amps.

Thanx, Russ

[stormin]

Fluffy,

As Islander said, the old gear from the 70s does not sound all that good Even the newer low priced consumer electronics sound better.

On your second note, THD means nothing

Thanx, Russ

Some crazy notions in my experiences.

[Appleskinner]

Daniel,

I am also in the Air Force...stationed at Davis-Monthan AFB in Arizona.

I'll have to disagree with the other comments. I own a Yamaha CR-1020 that I rotate in and out of my system every few months. Of the several receivers I've owned over the years and A/B'd with my Yamaha, the CR-1020 is head and shoulders above the HK's/Sansuis/Marantzs in both clarity and overall listenability. I've used this receiver on Heresys, Cornwalls, LaScalas, Belles and Fortes with outstanding results. I also own Yamaha's top of the line separates from the late 80's -- the CX-1000 preamp and MX-1000 amplifier. To answer your question, I believe the MX-1000 is one of the finest sounding amplifiers made in the <$2500 range. My main system is all McIntosh, but there is something about the sound of the 70's/80's Yamaha gear on Klipsch speakers that no other amp can match -- especially the new stuff. If you like the CR-1020, I assure you that the sound of the M-65.

Give me a shout if you have any other questions.

[SilverSport]

My Yamaha CA-610 II from 1979 sounds great...my Nakamichi TA-2A STASIS from 1989 sounds wonderful...my Outlaw Audio RR2150 from 2007 sounds beautiful...I don't fall into the camp of the vintage SS stuff sounds less than newer SS gear...now as for Tubes...my 1959 EICO HF-81 sound fabulous...my...[]

Bill

[thefluffy]

I'm very glad that a couple of you guys stood out to defend the vintage stuff. Honestly, I was starting to wonder if I was crazy. Especially when I read statements like:

"Even the newer low priced consumer electronics sound better."

Before the CR-1020 I had a brand new $200 Sony Stereo Reciever (i don't remember the model nor do I care to remember it) that I owned for about 4 days before I decided it wasn't even worth the $200 I spent on it and an 5 year old AIWA Stereo Reciever that I borrowed from my brother until I convinced my Dad to let me use his CR-1020. Neither one of these even touched the CR-1020. I mean, it was night and day. I noticed the differences between the AIWA and the Yamaha instantly without initially doing an A/B test with the two. It was that bad. Sadly, the AIWA even sounded better than the Sony. Granted, it wasn't near the difference between the Yammy and the AIWA.

"The old gear from the 70-80s does not sound all that good (unless it was one of the few good high-end products. think thousands of dollars)." So, the definition of high end back in the late 70's (keep in mind I wasn't around then) was in the thousands of dollars? My dad paid somewhere around 600-700 dolloars for this CR-1020 back in 77 or 78 I believe. That was as much if not a little bit more than what he paid for his pair of Cornwalls that he bought with it. Keep in mind, he compared the 1020 to the Mcintosh seperates that Custom Audio had at the time that cost about 2x the price for the Pre and Power amps (I don't know which models these were). For the price, he heard no reason to buy the Mcintoshes over the Yamaha and he never regretted it. How much would that 600-700 $$ transform into these days for brand new audio equipment? I would have to guess around 2 - 3k? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Russ, please don't hate me for contratadicting you. It is just that my findings heavily contrast the findings you have had. Maybe I just haven't heard the right "newer low priced consumer electronics."

Now it sounds like me and Appleskinner might get along! I like that u compared the 1020 to the marantz, sansui, and Hks amps. That is a comparison that I have really wanted to make. I just haven't had the local opportunity. I am curious as to your thoughts on the Mcintosh stuff versus those Yamaha seperates. Granted, the Mcintosh stuff is definitely out of my price range.

Thanks,

Daniel

[russ69]

Sorry guys, I'm not saying you can't have a satisfying system using older low priced gear. I'm sure some of the combos sound fine. It's been what, 35 years since I had a 70's receiver. I think what I want to say is that good separates are quite a bit better than what you can achieve with a receiver, almost any receiver (there are few gems, but they were VERY expensive and rare). Daniel, yes I had thousands of dollars into my stereo in the 70's, my turntable and cart was around $1500 back then and I had plenty of room to move up so maybe you can see where I'm coming from.

You said; "My dad paid somewhere around 600-700 dollars for this CR-1020 back in 77 or 78 I believe." That may sound like a lot but it's not. I think the same 700 dollars today buys a better sounding piece of gear. Don't let me talk you out of something you like, it's just my opinion. Your mileage may vary!

Thanx, Russ

[gigbyt]

Hello,

I have had the yamaha cr-2020 recently and it sounded very nice powering my cornwalls.

I also got a chance to try out a yamaha m-60/tube preamp combo at the same time and the m-60/tube preamp

sounded just a bit better with my cornwalls, although the class a setting on the m-60 didnt seem to add or subtract anything to the sound.

Now when we hooked up a pair of heresy's to the m60/tube preamp it was a night and day difference over the cr-2020 receiver.

the heresy's sounded very good with the 2020 but with the m-60/tube preamp it was like a totally different speaker.

more and better bass, very real mirange and the cymbal crashes had a shimmer that the 2020 couldnt deliver.

the heresy's were very close to my corwall's at low to mid loud volumes 60-90 db with the m60/tubepreamp combo.

My buddy who owns the m60/preamp and heresies was considering selling them until he heard them hooked together.

They are now his permanent bedroom system and he will not part with them[],LOL

I also have a sony db-830 ht receiver circa 2001, that sounds like a big load of crap in comparison to all the vintage gear ive tried : hk330c,hk930 ,hk730

yamaha 2020, yamaha m60/tube preamp, scott 299a,and my current stereotech(mcintosh) 1200 that seems to have a certain kind of magic to it.

[pmsummer]

Of all the mainstream consumer electronics companies, Yamaha has probably done the best job of maintaining their quality over the years and avoiding the BPC malaise. I've got (and use) a CR-1020, CR-1000 (my fav), and a CA-2010 (in addition to my Mac SS gear and Fisher and Scott tubes). They are all fanatastic, although it's about time for the 1020 to visit the doctor.

I also have a mid '90s Yamaha A/V integrated amp (can't remember the model). It's currently running Cornwalls in my "home theater" (2.1 set-up currently, although the amp will do 4.1), and it sounds really good.

So, back to your question: The M-60 and M-64 amps are great. Go for it.

And I will disagree with some of the posts here. Too much modern consumer gear has not consistantly retained high-fidelity quality sound. The marketplace has promoted gear with a very "forward" mid-range, and big bias in low frequencies, to match changing consumer tastes in compressed program material. Yamaha's dedication to "Natural Sound" is real, and unique among consumer brands.

A happy disclaimer: I have heard a few examples of amps using tri-path chips, and they are very impressive sounding, starting with the cheapo Sonic Impact T-Amp, and going upwards to more serious products. This technology has been a bright spot.

[thefluffy]

Thanks for the input guys!

I appreciate the comparison gigbyt. That is exactly what I was looking for. I am curious, what Tube Preamp did you use?

I am contemplating using a Tubebuffer with a dac before a preamp. But, it is a pretty cheap chinese made tube buffer. So, my expectations are pretty low and it is mostly just for experimentation purposes.

Gigbyt, what do u think about the CR-2020 versus the hk930 and hk730. That is a comparison I have really wanted to make.

Thanks,

Daniel

[gigbyt]

Gigbyt, what do u think about the CR-2020 versus the hk930 and hk730. That is a comparison I have really wanted to make.

Well just going from memory here, I really liked the hk930 and 730 they have excellent tuners and fm radio(which i listen to alot) sounded

like music instead of just noise, very lifelike not flat i guess. Also i could run the hk's knobs in the flat position and it sounded great.

The yamaha 2020 also has a great tuner but to me sounded less alive and lifelike, but could sound great with a strong signal and some fiddling of the tone controls.

the phono input sounded better on the yamaha with my sl-1200 as the source.

I did notice that i often would be turning the bass and treble down a couple notches on the yamaha, especially if i was listening at higher volumes, but

the yamaha also held its composure better at high volumes versus the hk units.(the extra power of the cr-2020 helping in this regard i guess).

I did not really want to part with the Yamaha and still kick myself for selling it sometimes.(to a fellow forum member here who loves it).

I just thought it would have been a shame to let it sit in a closet not being enjoyed.

It would have been nice to throw it into the loop every now and then.Also having all those buttons and switches to play with is nice[H].

the yamaha was quite large and heavy and i thought looked great as well, although i am more fond of the simpler look of the hk units.

In the end the yamaha did not have as much of that certain Magic to it versus my stereotech 1200 to my ears anyways.

the tube preamp was a dynaco pas-3 that had been serviced locally(NH).

My buddy won't sell it to me but i keep trying,LOL.

hope this is helpful, I"m interested in trying the tube preamp/ss amp combo Maybe a crown k2 with a dynaco pas- 3x.

But ultimately i would like to go back to the scott 299a,b or C route. preferably NOSVALVED.

I never should have parted with that Scott 299-a i had , I miss that one the most.

AHHH, tubes and cornwalls....................... Anyone agree?

[thefluffy]

A little update. I finally have the money to spend on the Yamaha Seperates. I purchased a C-70 for the Preamp. I am on the lookout right now for either two M-60s or two M-65s. I am also on the look out for a T-70 Tuner. When I finally get them, I will post some thoughts comparing them two the CR-1020. Does anyone have suggestions on an affordable DAC? I'm looking for one that will work for 2 channel audio. I want to to accept a Coax input, 96Khz/24 bit capable, and affordable. I am thinking around $200 to $300. That is about all the budget will allow. I have been researching the Gigawork DAC available on ebay. It is a sorta DIY DAC for about $109 + Op Amp upgrade for about $30 plus around $50 shipping for the both. But, It is hard to find alot of info about the DAC. There is a lengthy discussion at diyaudio, but it focuses alot on modding it to use Transformers for outputs. I am not to fond of that idea considering that the transformers will put me out around $150 to $200. I greatly would appreciate any input!

Daniel