Got my new RF=3s?????

[John0392]

With great anticipation I received my new KLIPSCH RF-3IIs. Even left work early when I know they arrive. Hooked them all up and almost cried. Not from happiness but DISSAPPOINTMENT. My family could feel my pain. They sound bad. Hardly any base, little mids and anything but clear highs.

How could all of you and the reviews be soooo wrong. I do like the Klipsch sound and had the quintet system that I thought was pretty good.

If I didn't have the sub there would hardly be any base at all. As for dynamics? none! The RC-3 is OK, not great just OK.

From reading the threads on this forum I know they have a breaking in time; however, I assumed they were suppose to sound great and then get better.

These things will not play music good at all. Haven't tried on DVD yet, but music?, no way.

They sounded much better in Tweeter.com.

I have waited all my adult years to get THE SYSTEM and now, and now, and now.

I couldn't sleep well last night and now I'm up super early to write this.

Is there something I'm suppose to take out of the port or something. Didn't feel anything in there?

[speed3]

Whoa John,

Your comments about the RF-3's are completely surprising, especially from someone who has owned other Klipsch products.

The RF's are leaps and bounds beyond your old Quintets. I think you may need to adjust the placement of the speakers if the sound is the way you claim. The horns are very directional and you have to play with it a little to get it right.

When I first got my KLF-10's, the base seemed weak for twin 10" woofers. I had owned KG 4.5's in the past with a single 10" woofer which seemed to have significantly more bass...at first. I played with the speaker placement a lot since they have a rear firing port to get the bass right. It also took a few days to actually break those puppies in.

It also took some time to break the tweeter in. I left everything running for about a week while I was at work at a fairly low volume and it made a big difference by the end of the week. Everything smoothed out and the mid-bass got much punchier yet remains very tight.

I think this is probably the issue since you state that you really liked the sound at Tweeter when you bought them. THese speakers should sound even better in your home, or at least that has been my experience.

Give them a little time and I think you will not regret it.

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My System So Far:

Fronts: KLF 10 (Med. Oak)

Center: KLF C7 (Med. Oak)

Surrounds: Def. Tech BP6

Sub: SW-12II (Black Ash)

Receiver: H/K AVR 25II

DVD: Panasonic DVDR31S

CD: Yamaha CDC 655

[Underhanded Penguin]

John, I'm not sure what you're expecting, but the RF-3 won't play those really low bass notes that are reserved for subs. Even the tallest biggest tower speaker (except something like the Dynaudio Evidence) will not play much below 30hz. RF-3 is rated to go down to 37hz, but I won't be linear all the way down to 37hz. By 40hz, it would have lost some "steam" already. If you wanted to make sure you get the most bass out of your main speakers make sure you have them set to "large" on your receiver. Otherwise, setting them small and letting the subwoofer handle 80hz and below is what is recommended to minimize wave cancellation. It might not be a problem for your room though, so try both out and see which sounds best to you. If it is as bad sounding as you seem to say, then there might be something wrong with the speakers. Regardless of how much bass there is, the RF-3's should sound pretty damn clear. Make sure you have good and recognizable source material that you can play back so you can benchmark how the music should sound.

-UP

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Liv Tyler as Arwen: "If you want him, come and claim him!" - Translation: "I am very hot."

[John0392]

I appreciate your comments. First, I have them toed in to the sweet spot as recommended. I have them away from the wall for the port. Actually moving them closer should create more bass effects howbeit not good. I have to put my ear up to the bass to actually see if anything is coming out. Doesn't seem to be anything coming from the port. I tried the sub in many different ways and it is doing its job. When turning sub off I should get some decent bass I would thing at least some punch - not much at all.

It would seem strange to me that both speakers could be bad. (1) maybe but both sound the same.

Am I hooking them up correctly. There are two set of hook-ups. I have taken off the gold bridges and hooked up the wire to the top two posts and bridged the bottoms with 14 gage wire (black to black and red to red)

I have an H/K AVR receiver with 85 per channel. The loudness is there; however the highs sound very tinny/plastic sounding and with not much mids or highs to help the horns sound like orphans.

[HornEd]

John, you describe a condition that suggests something is amiss. Granted, your new speakers may not be the top of the line... but they Klipsch and certainly should be above where you now have them in your mind's eye. Speed3 and Underhanded Penguin points are well spoken.

The first thing I would double check is the wiring to be sure that the correct polarity is maintained... it isn't the condition you describe will occur. Secondly, (as indicated above) the position of any ported horn loudspeaker is critical as to aiming it like a rifle to the sweet spot while maintaining a correct (for your room, it varies) space between the rear ports and a major reflective surface.

With your heart and hopes linked to the success of these speakers in the theater of YOUR mind, I hope you had the good sense to pick-up (or borrow from a friend) an analog Radio Shack SPL meter... and have some way to generate "pink noise" so that your speakers can be set-up properly. The number one cure for disgruntled Klipsch owners is properly setting up what they already have. At about $35, the RS SPL meter is cheap insurance that you are doing the right thing!

Keep us posted after the fact, John, like you did on the way to your purchase. The odds are a little patience and a fair amount of tweaking will bring you GREAT audio rewards. Here's to your turnover HornEd

[John0392]

I feel as though I know all of you in my journey. I hate to have this happen seeing my chest was puffed. I couldn't in all conscience even invite my wife to hear especially after all I had to go through to get these things (Yes at this moment they are things!).

I tried to be very sure the polarity was correct.

Just how do you do that pink noise and work the SPL. I will get one by hook or crook. I did tweek several different ways and should have even accidently tweeked to some satisfaction I would think. The volumn gains go from -10 to +10 no matter how you cut it and turning from large to small to sub yes/no.

Referencing my above post did I hook up correctly not withstanding the polarity?

[HornEd]

Take heart, John.. the odds are that you will find an inexpensive way out of your "mind pothole" with a cost effective audio redemption.

Getting the most form a speaker set-up, particularly one with horns, is a job which requires feedback beyond human hearing. Just like your eye fools your head into thinking that movies "move" through "persistence of vision"... a similar phenomenon occurs in the persistence of sound that helps make music the soul stirring stuff it is. That's why there is no substitute for a mechanical device.

SPL means Sound Pressure Level... in a "low-tech" word... "volume." Probably your receiver already has the ability to generate "pink noise"... so all you need do is beg, borrow or steal (with the intent to make restitution ) an analog SPL meter. Turn it on to the 70 dB slot and select the receiver option that puts "pink noise" through the left main. Raise the volume until the meter needle hovers around 75 dB. Then, leaving the volume alone... send the "pink noise" signal to every speaker in turn, using the internal +/- adjustments of the receiver to bring all of them up to the same 75 dB level.

Obviously, you can also use your SPL meter to map room characteristics like standing waves... which also may be part of your problem. Walk around the room looking at the meter while listening to low bass material... standing waves will be reflected in wide variances of perceived sound... from twice as loud as it should be to no sound at all... and it varies with the length of the wave... so each frequency behaves differently in your room. That is not a Klipsch phenomenon... that's physics... whether you want to "go figure" or not!

"Video Essentials" and "Avia" are both highly recommended set-up disks... but somewhat dated. The cheapest and easiest to find minimal set-up disk is probably the one for $9.99 on the shelf of Sam Goody's. This will at least generate "pink noise" and call attention to out-of-phase wiring. You may already have some help in that area is you have a DVD with THX options in the special features or audio set-up areas of many movies... particularly those done by Lucas Films... THX is their profit center.

Hang in there... just think of what that concept has done for bad guys and remember you are not one of them! HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 03-06-2002 at 03:44 PM

[John0392]

Would an equalizer help with balancing out room accoustics?

[HornEd]

Yes, that is exactly what they are for... creating flat responses where peaks and valleys make disquieting fare. But, they also have their own unique penalties and shortcomings.

I try to solve the problem and only use my eq as a diagnostic tool to find out more about my audio environment. Eq's make your amps work harder and potentially create additional problems for people with particularly good ears. Eq's are a trade-off kind of thing in everyday use IMHO.

But, in a situation that sounds as drastic as yours, John, it may also be a matter of what-ever-helps. Sometimes I have gotten relief as simply as isolating speakers with sand-filled stands or a piece of Dynamat (usually found in the Car Stereo area) under each leg.

Your questions are getting better and better... believe it or not, good times may not be so far away in time or pocketbook! Catch you on the flip side. HornEd

[Maximo]

Also try to see if your receiver can set the front speakers to large or small. Try setting them to large cause this will channel the lower frequencies through the speaker where small channels them all to the sub. I just bought the RF-3s and there is no lack of bass even without a sub hooked up. Im using a sony str de945 so your reciever is better then mine prolly, and should probably let you set those fronts to large.

whoops, penguin already said this

This message has been edited by Maximo on 03-06-2002 at 12:01 PM

[John0392]

Well, I've certainly done the Large/Small thing. Perhaps using a dedicated amp for fronts might help. I have a (25) year old Kenwood Power Amp with one channel out that I could probably get fixed. It certainly not digital but toggle complete with power meters? Of course it just may be my ears or the speakers character themselves (I hope not) the quint system sound pretty good as I have stated.

I'm just looking for that Klipsch Dynamic and punch I've read about.

[LyleS]

John, I'm not sure I understand what you did when you hooked up your speakers ??

I haven't used the models you have personally but in general terms:

If a speaker has 2 sets of binding posts on the back, one of them is for the tweeter, and one is for the woofers. This allows you to bi-wire (run two sets of speaker wires to the amp) or Bi-amp (run the tweeter from one amp and the woofer from a different amp.

If you have a single set of speaker wires from your HK, you need to leave the gold jumpers in the back of the speaker to ensure that a signal gets to the tweeter and the woofer from your receiver. I'd remove the wire you did the bridging with, and just try the speakers with the jumpers in place. With the jumpers in place you should be able to hook the speaker wire to either set of posts on the speaker.

Finally, if you've had the quintets, before, you may have some very lightweight speaker wire. As you are now planning to send some bass to the new RF's, you should at minimum use some 12 guage speaker wire. (Home depot seems to be the preferred vendor for this esoteric wire .. )

Hook it up as I've described, and take a listen.

Hopefully this makes a big difference to the sound.

The HK should have more than enough power to give you the upper bass you desire. Like others have said, the lowest bass is best handled by your subwoofer.

Hope this helps.

Lyle.

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Gear: Klipsch La Scala ;THX home cinema: KT-LCR, KT-SW15

Onkyo Integra DTR-7 THX

Denon POA-2800 Amplifier

Panasonic RP91 DVD

NAD 7140 Stereo receiver (Pre Only with Denon Amp)

[Stu Pidass]

Try bypassing all digital filters in your receiver. My Marantz SR800 has a 2 channel direct mode which accomplished this. Hopefully your HK will also have this option.

Good Luck.

f>

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'81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover

'73 Heresy Centre

'78 Heresy Surrounds

Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz)

Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver

Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

[John0392]

It's interesting you said keep the gold colored bridges, whereas, on other threads they said do just as I have done (or the oposite) in removing these and using a good gauge(sp) wire.

I am using 14 gauge wire on my hook-up. there can't be THAT much difference between this and 12 gauge?

I'm not awhere of any digital filter by passing on this HK. Maybe I don't know where to look but I have had for a while now and I would have noticed something on this.

[Underhanded Penguin]

JOHN!!!!! it's no wonder you're not getting any bass!!! If you are using one set of speaker wires from your receiver to your speaker, you have to leave the bridges on so that the signal goes to both the tweeters and the woofers. What you probably did was wire the cables to the top binding posts, which are your tweeters, and without the bridges on, the signal only goes to your tweeter. For now put the bridges back on. This will give you back the bass that was missing. With the bridges on, it doesnt matter which set of binding posts you use. Just continue using the top ones. Post back later on if you want to find out how to biwire or biamp. For now, this should solve your problem. Or at least I hope it does... Good luck.

-UP

Oops. I just realized Lyle said this already. Let us know if it works.

------------------

Liv Tyler as Arwen: "If you want him, come and claim him!" - Translation: "I am very hot."

This message has been edited by Underhanded Penguin on 03-06-2002 at 01:50 PM

[John0392]

I truly hope you right; however, let me repeat that I have the posts bridged with heavy gauge speaker wire as I was advised to do on other threads? Black up to Black down same for the reds.

If this is absolutely not correct then that probably is the problem.

[Guest BobG]

John, I am only guessing, but it sounds to me that your L and R speaker are not wired in phase with each other. This should not be the case as you say you've checked polarity, but check again. You may have a wire reversed at the receiver side. If there is more bass with just one speaker playing than with both (use the balance control to test) then the speakers are out of phase. One is wired + on the amp to + on the speaker while the other is wired + to -. This will cause the bass to cancel and leave you with sound much as you describe. Even if the wiring is proper, it is STILL possible to have an out of phase condition. I once installed a Very high price pair of monoblock amps and found that one was internally wired out of phase. The + of the amp went to the - on the speaker jack. Had me going for quite a while. Try reversing the speaker wire + for - on just ONE speaker. If it sounds better that way, then my diagnosis is confirmed. The sound you describe is definitely not that of a properly functioning pair of Klipsch speakers.

[John0392]

Thanks Bob, I will certainly give this a try. How about the other comment about the bridge with the metal piece vs the wire I installed?

[Deang]

They are wired correctly. Your homemade straps are fine.

Please answer these questions:

What speakers did you used to have?

How big is your listening room?

How tall is your ceiling?

How far away are you from your speakers?

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deanG

[John0392]

I sorry I did it correctly. That eliminates one problem.

I used to have the Quintet surround

My room is 13'x13'

Ceiling is 7'

I am about 11' from RF-3s and 12.5' from RC-3.

I can't come into the room anymore without blocking doorway. My wife is already peaved that I came out as far as I did. I have heard that the closer I get to the wall with these ported beasts the more bass I should hear howbeit not good bass. There doesn't seem to be much coming out from the port. I would think I would feel a little breeze at higher levels; not.

I will check to see if I wired wrong; however, I do believe everything is in phase. + to + - to - etc.

I will put the gold straps back on just in case. We shall see.

I am really hoping I did something wrong as you can imagine.