major sound inconsistencies while listening to music?

[Leb_CRX]

The issue I am having is driving me bonkers...I cannot seem to get ANY consistancy with the sound when I am listening to music (2.1)...they either sound too bright, and no bass, too bassy, or too muddy, and the ODD song sounds GREAT...but 90% of the time, it sounds terrible...and I have no idea what's causing the issue, and I am hoping someone can help

My setup is as follow:

Receiver: Denon 889(http://www.denon.ca/ProductDetails/3324.asp) which is equivalent to the 2310 in terms of processing.
Fronts: RF-82's
Sub: Velodyne 15 inch
Media: HTPC using digital out to the receiver, ALL the effects turned off, playing ALL FLAC audio.

for the receiver, I have ran audessey, and checked db output with a sound meter, but I only have it enabled for movies, rest of the time the EQ/Effects of the receiver are off...I've tried it both ways, and no difference

My library contains mostly rock and heavy metal, some country...now I know what you might be saying...well it's the source...but I play the exact same files on my 'work' PC, which has a kenwood receiver powering 2xRB61's, and a 10 inch sub, and it sounds MUCH better, and much more consistant.

when I use audio CD's, the same issue arises, each audio CD will have it's own characteristics...for example, CD1 will be super bright, CD2 will be super bassy...which I understand it's how it's recorded/edited/mastered, but I want to be able to find a balance somewhere...with my other setup, you're usually in the middle of the spectrum, with the rf82's, you're on one side or another it seems, rarely in the middle, this could be because it's a higher end speaker, I don't know

I've even as far as thought it was my PS3 causing the issue since the media software transcodes flac, so I sold it and I built the HTPC, but the same issue is happening

I am ready to sell my RF82's and look for another set of speakers, this is frustrating me to no end, if it's the receiver, I'll change it, if it's something I can do with the PC, I'll do it, any suggestion welcome!

[Oblio]

Try analog out from PC and turn off processing in your receiver.

[Leb_CRX]

I'll get some analog cables and give it a shot

you thinking the denon's DAC is coloring the sound even though the features are disabled?

[Oblio]

I'll get some analog cables and give it a shot

you thinking the denon's DAC is coloring the sound even though the features are disabled?

Perhaps, can't trust the bit twiddlers [8-|]

[LarryC]

I cannot seem to get ANY consistancy with the sound when I am listening to music (2.1)...they either sound too bright, and no bass, too bassy, or too muddy, and the ODD song sounds GREAT...but 90% of the time, it sounds terrible

Could your speakers be out of phase? The oddities you're describing could result from their being out of phase, and would change as you move from side to side, kind of as you described.

Occasionally, single drivers are out of phase, instead of the speakers as a whole. That's tough to figure out; someone on the forum in the last year did a lot of work figuring it out in his system, ending up reversing the phase on one of the woofers I think. Kinda' complicated, that was.

Good luck --

[LarryC]

This is the thread on tracking down a single out-of-phase driver between a pair of Khorns: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/118570.aspx

[WMcD]

Excuse me if this is has been done.

It seems to me you have to set up a somewhat controlled experiment to see whether what you like, or what goes bad, can be attributed to the amps or the speakers -- or speaker locations.

Can you try the speakers on the output of the Kenwood. Just replace the RB-61s (which you like) with the RF82's.

Similary, try the 61s on the Denon.

Also regarding a controlled experiment, are the 61s in a location similar to the 82's? That could make a very big difference in performance.

I expect that what you're hearing is the results of the RF-82s being excellent reproducers of very variable recordings.

This is not to say anything bad about the 61s or their placement or the Kenwood.

It is well known that high performance systems make the variations in records very obvious.

The other side of the coin is less discussed. Low performance systems make poor recordings less noticable.

Maybe poor recordings is an inaccurate term. Producers goose up compression, treble, and bass in the hope that the recordings will sound better on poor systems.

Overall, all recordings tend to sound the same, mediocre, when filtered though a mediocre system.

Wm McD

[Leb_CRX]

Could your speakers be out of phase? The oddities you're describing could result from their being out of phase, and would change as you move from side to side, kind of as you described.

Occasionally, single drivers are out of phase, instead of the speakers as a whole. That's tough to figure out; someone on the forum in the last year did a lot of work figuring it out in his system, ending up reversing the phase on one of the woofers I think. Kinda' complicated, that was.

Good luck --

Thanks for the reply and for the link

I read the thread, and was hopeful...so I re-checked the wiring, all was ok
so I downloaded SweepGen, and gave that a try...I could not hear a difference when they were in-phase, or 180-phase, or independant...or notice a different sound level, tone, or anything...it all sounded the same to my untrained ear
so I did the battery trick, and they seem to be both in-phase

[Leb_CRX]

Excuse me if this is has been done.

It seems to me you have to set up a somewhat controlled experiment to see whether what you like, or what goes bad, can be attributed to the amps or the speakers -- or speaker locations.

Can you try the speakers on the output of the Kenwood. Just replace the RB-61s (which you like) with the RF82's.

Similary, try the 61s on the Denon.

Also regarding a controlled experiment, are the 61s in a location similar to the 82's? That could make a very big difference in performance.

I expect that what you're hearing is the results of the RF-82s being excellent reproducers of very variable recordings.

This is not to say anything bad about the 61s or their placement or the Kenwood.

It is well known that high performance systems make the variations in records very obvious.

The other side of the coin is less discussed. Low performance systems make poor recordings less noticable.

Maybe poor recordings is an inaccurate term. Producers goose up compression, treble, and bass in the hope that the recordings will sound better on poor systems.

Overall, all recordings tend to sound the same, mediocre, when filtered though a mediocre system.

Wm McD

thanks for the post, and one of the thing I actually fear is that this is a performance issue where I've left poorer speakers behind and upgraded to the rf82's and this is just something I have to deal with...to tell you the truth, at that point, I'd rather have shitty inconsistant speakers then good speakers that sound like crap (to me) 90% of the time... I REALLY think there's a variable in here making things awful, and I really hope to resolve it, I love these speakers, I don't know why, I just do...klipsch is the reason I was turned onto audio and to something other than HTIB's and I really hope I don't end up switching loyalty

I should mention that on the weekend, I hooked up one of the rb61's to the denon, left channel, and left the rf-82 as the right channel, I could hear a huge difference between the speakers (expected), but I had guests come over and I couldn't actually put it through it's paces

tomorrow during the day, I'll hook them back up, as well as the kenwood as well, and listen

I'd love to do it now, but kiddo is asleep, and without cranking it a bit, the difference is hard to spot

I'll post results, thanks for everyone's help

[mikesmith11]

which cables do you use? i use these ones and they have been working really well. I had them for a while now

[PrestonTom]

Don't bother with fancy cables. The original complaint was about an "inconsistancy" in the sound quality.

I think Wm McD has hit the nail on the head in his answer.

-Tom

[Leb_CRX]

which cables do you use? i use these ones and they have been working really well. I had them for a while now

both the coax out and the speaker cables are monster cables
not because I am a fan of the brand, but because I got them dirt cheap at a local clearout store

[Leb_CRX]

Don't bother with fancy cables. The original complaint was about an "inconsistancy" in the sound quality.

I think Wm McD has hit the nail on the head in his answer.

-Tom

Fair enough...Thanks

ya I can't wait to run it through it's paces...I didn't have a chance tonight, but I have a buddy who's a more experienced audio guy coming over to check it out either this week or on the weekend, I plan on going to BB and picking up another receiver to compare it to instead of using my kenwood...I am starting to have my doubts about the denon to be honest...one of the reasons below

Today while playing with it quickly
ok so the 2 channel output is set to:
speaker size: small
sub: enabled
output: LFE
crossover: 80hz
no eq, audyssey disable

now, based on everything I've read regarding the denon (and it may be different for others), when you set your fronts to 'small', no matter if you have LFE or LFE+Main, any frequency below the crossover gets sent to the sub ONLY, and your fronts don't play it...here's a link explaining:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15018166&postcount=662

Mains - Small

Sub - LFE or LFE+Mains doesn't matter

Here, the mains only play frequencies above whatever their crossover is
set to. Anything below the crossover is redirected to the sub. The sub
plays the LFE channel and the redirected bass from the mains regardless
of what you set it to.

now here's the interesting piece, the genSweep was set to 50Hz, and the output was coming from the sub and the speakers, I turned off the sub to be sure...it seems to not respect the settings...makes me question what else it's not respecting...I know it's a small thing, but just adds to my frustration right now

sorry, kind of venting

[kelA]

I am not sure if on your model if you have a independent 2 channel setting (Custom) on the Denon, but if you do, have you tried setting the mains to large and completely disable the sub? I notice a more even sound when I do this on my 3808. I also use Direct setting for 2 channel listening. I have not been a fan of using a sub with music. The crossover setting is not a brick wall you may still get some information below the setpoint.

[Leb_CRX]

I am not sure if on your model if you have a independent 2 channel setting (Custom) on the Denon, but if you do, have you tried setting the mains to large and completely disable the sub? I notice a more even sound when I do this on my 3808. I also use Direct setting for 2 channel listening. I have not been a fan of using a sub with music. The crossover setting is not a brick wall you may still get some information below the setpoint.

thanks for the reply, and yep, the 889 does have the 2 chan independant setting, and I was infact using direct.

update: I had my buddy over today and we spent a good hour playing with the denon, I didn't get a chance to go out and buy another receiver, because we got the denon to satisfactory settings...a new receiver will be in my future plans, might go seperates if I can afford it, we'll see...but no rush, I am happy with the way it sounds right now

so through trial and error we found the issue...there's a huge gap(not sure if it's due to room, speakers, or what) but between 80-100...I turned up the crossover to 100, and BAM things suddenly came to life... I guess the klipsch's really struggle down low, either that or my room/furniture cancels those frequencies and the needs the power of the sub.

we tried all sorts of settings, setting them to large, lfe, lfe+, small, lfe, life+, and nothing made them pop like the crossover setting, go figure

does anyone have any info on how I can plot a graph of db/freq? how does one go about doing that? I checked quickly with a sound meter, and the gensweep software, and at first glance, I have a house curve, but there's a LOT of gaps in there, I don't know if that's normal, but def something I'd like to look at