Live vs Recorded

[Hifi jim]

An interesting topic popped up in Stereophile's coverage of THE Show and CES. In the VMPS room there was a live vs recorded exhibit which featured a singer (a cappella), and the previous live performance was recorded and played back immediately. Most felt the recording offered more air and life than the actual live performance. John Atkinson (Editor in Chief of Stereophile), is paraphrased in the brief article: "That's because we were hearing the acoustic of the same room twice, both at the time of recording and at the time of playback". Interesting. Most horn speakers that I've heard sound more live and less overly Hi-Fi and airy for these same reasons. Horns tend to be less room dependent as they direct the sound to the listeners ears more directly and use less of the room acoustic in their presentation. That's my take anyway. Interested in others thoughts and comments... http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2010//index1.html

[artto]

You haven't read Paul Klipsch's papers have you!?!

As I recall, Paul Klipsch's friend across the pond attended such an event ~ decades ago.

The orchestra came in third.

[artto]

Horns tend to be less room dependent as they direct the sound to the listeners ears more directly and use less of the room acoustic in their presentation. That's my take anyway. Interested in others thoughts and comments... http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2010//index1.html

Not true. Absolutely not true.

[Cornman]

Artto, I am amazed how you say so much with so few words, thank you & carry on sir.[H]

Cornman

[Marvel]

Artto, how did your Christmas recordings go?

Bruce

[russ69]

The sound of unamplified music is NOT my standard for recorded and reproduced music. I believe recorded music is an art unto itself and it does not have to sound like the live reference. I say this because, we are a long way from being able to produce this sound AND we may not particularly like it if we did. I don't want to hear toes tapping and pages turning, but that's just me.

Thanx, Russ

P.S. I don't want the whole Mormon Tabernacle Choir in my music room either!

[artto]

Artto, how did your Christmas recordings go?

Bruce

Bruce, here's what other Forum members have said at Steve's Jubilee audition. The Gloria excerpt I brought along is available for free ~ just let me know where to send it. (Oh, it turned out very excellent ~ read what others said)

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/127405.aspx

[Hifi jim]

Horns tend to be less room dependent as they direct the sound to the listeners ears more directly and use less of the room acoustic in their presentation. That's my take anyway. Interested in others thoughts and comments... http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2010//index1.html

Not true. Absolutely not true.

Care to elaborate?

[artto]

The sound of unamplified music is NOT my standard for recorded and reproduced music. I believe recorded music is an art unto itself and it does not have to sound like the live reference. I say this because, we are a long way from being able to produce this sound AND we may not particularly like it if we did. I don't want to hear toes tapping and pages turning, but that's just me.

Thanx, Russ

P.S. I don't want the whole Mormon Tabernacle Choir in my music room either!

Russ, you are more than welcome to "believe" whatever you want.

The fact of the matter is that yes, recorded music can be an art form unto itself, and does not have to sound like the a reference ~ especially if there isn't one, or if that was the artist's intentions.

However, the art form also includes those artists and recording engineers/producers who are attemping to record the live event.

I must take complete disagreement with you that "we are a long way from being able to produce this sound". Why do I say this? Because for better or worse, I have achieved this, at least to some degree. And others have also experienced the same thing.

Have you ever been in a room where a simple recording was taking place and then while the master tape was being played back, the same musicians were still in the room, occassionally conversing with each other, only to become confused in that "Bill" wasn't actually saying anything, it was him talking in between tracks? Or how about a single soloist recording himself so that he can record (over-dub) a second track producing a duet with himself. While the musician was playing along (or so we thought) he made an awful mistake, we looked up and to our surprise he wasn't playing, he was sitting there smiling ~ it was the recording ~ he knew he had made a bad mistake at that part on the recording and had stopped playing but we all thought it was him.

You also say that "I don't want the whole Mormon Tabernacle Choir in my music room either!" Well, that's not the point, actually. The objective (for me at least, with this type of recording) is to litterally (well, virtually of course) "take you there". You've heard the expression used for great high fidelity, "the speakers seem to disappear", right? Well, take it one step further. Make the room disappear! Get yourself transported to the concert, via the recording and playback system. If you think this is not possible, I say you are wrong, and I can bring forth numerous witnesses that support my view and have come to the same conclusions. Some of these situations have been posted on this Forum.

Over the course of several decades, I have played music professionally. I have recorded in studios. I have recorded live-in-concert. I have made experimental recordings of live outdoors sounds combining everything from crickets chirping with rolling thunder moving in with planes, trains and traffic in the mix to measuring sound levels of lightening strikes outside compared to the sound level in my room.

When your playback system can reproduce all these things, and do so in a way that can at least fool some of the people some of the time, then you are on your way to an accurate playback system. And if your system can achieve that, then after that, you're welcome to alter the sound however you like to make it "sound better" to you, and still say that you have an accurate playback system.

[artto]

Horns tend to be less room dependent as they direct the sound to the listeners ears more directly and use less of the room acoustic in their presentation. That's my take anyway. Interested in others thoughts and comments... http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2010//index1.html

Not true. Absolutely not true.

All speakers radiate sound in all directions. Many horns are
designed for specific directivity. This doesn’t mean that no sound is radiating
outside the angle of directivity.

In domestic environments, the reality is that the spaces are
very small, acoustically speaking. It’s very easy to get plenty of early
reflections off the room surfaces regardless of where the speakers are placed
or what type of speakers they are. Consequently, “the room” becomes a large
part of the equation. Acoustically, there are many things that come into play
that affect the sound we hear from the speakers. The speakers and room can be
thought of as a “system” and should be treated as such. This is especially true
in our acoustically small spaces. It’s something that we go through great
lengths to get “right” in our best auditoriums and concert halls, yet most
audio enthusiasts seem to ignore it (although this is changing, albeit
slowly,).

Lets take the familiar Klipschorn as an example. It resides
in a room corner. The K400 midrange is a “controlled directivity” horn. The
exit angle of this horn is 90 degrees horizontal and 30 degrees vertical. Since
the Khorn is required to be in the room corner residing at a 45 degree angle (in a 90 degree angle corner), the sound
radiating from the K400, still radiates sound beyond the 90 degree angle. The
horn mouth is only about 18 inches from the side walls. What happens? Sound is
reflected off the walls and bounced towards the listening area. We have a time
delay between the direct and reflected sound. I find it fascinating (amusing
actually) that some people are so concerned about time delay in speaker
components while completely ignoring the time delay introduced by room
reflections. You are not hearing the speaker. You are hearing the result of the interaction between the speaker and the room.

So, as you can see, even though we may be using a controlled
directivity speaker, this does not alleviate any interdependence between room
and speaker. Furthermore, after that very first “wave” of direct sound hits the
room surfaces, its all about the room, that is what you are mostly hearing ~
the room.

[stormin]

The sound of unamplified music is NOT my standard for recorded and reproduced music. I believe recorded music is an art unto itself and it does not have to sound like the live reference. I say this because, we are a long way from being able to produce this sound AND we may not particularly like it if we did. I don't want to hear toes tapping and pages turning, but that's just me.

Thanx, Russ

P.S. I don't want the whole Mormon Tabernacle Choir in my music room either!

Russ, you are more than welcome to "believe" whatever you want.

The fact of the matter is that yes, recorded music can be an art form unto itself, and does not have to sound like the a reference ~ especially if there isn't one, or if that was the artist's intentions.

However, the art form also includes those artists and recording engineers/producers who are attemping to record the live event.

I must take complete disagreement with you that "we are a long way from being able to produce this sound". Why do I say this? Because for better or worse, I have achieved this, at least to some degree. And others have also experienced the same thing.

Have you ever been in a room where a simple recording was taking place and then while the master tape was being played back, the same musicians were still in the room, occassionally conversing with each other, only to become confused in that "Bill" wasn't actually saying anything, it was him talking in between tracks? Or how about a single soloist recording himself so that he can record (over-dub) a second track producing a duet with himself. While the musician was playing along (or so we thought) he made an awful mistake, we looked up and to our surprise he wasn't playing, he was sitting there smiling ~ it was the recording ~ he knew he had made a bad mistake at that part on the recording and had stopped playing but we all thought it was him.

You also say that "I don't want the whole Mormon Tabernacle Choir in my music room either!" Well, that's not the point, actually. The objective (for me at least, with this type of recording) is to litterally (well, virtually of course) "take you there". You've heard the expression used for great high fidelity, "the speakers seem to disappear", right? Well, take it one step further. Make the room disappear! Get yourself transported to the concert, via the recording and playback system. If you think this is not possible, I say you are wrong, and I can bring forth numerous witnesses that support my view and have come to the same conclusions. Some of these situations have been posted on this Forum.

Over the course of several decades, I have played music professionally. I have recorded in studios. I have recorded live-in-concert. I have made experimental recordings of live outdoors sounds combining everything from crickets chirping with rolling thunder moving in with planes, trains and traffic in the mix to measuring sound levels of lightening strikes outside compared to the sound level in my room.

When your playback system can reproduce all these things, and do so in a way that can at least fool some of the people some of the time, then you are on your way to an accurate playback system. And if your system can achieve that, then after that, you're welcome to alter the sound however you like to make it "sound better" to you, and still say that you have an accurate playback system.

Very enjoyable reading your thoughts. More folks get caught up in the actual hi-fi than the music and it shows everyday. I've got a high-end audil dealer near me that has himself too caught up in the hi-fi as well. But then again maybe its more about the wine than the music or is that more about the image than the wine.

[Don Richard]

Horns tend to be less room dependent as they direct the sound to the listeners ears more directly and use less of the room acoustic in their presentation. That's my take anyway. Interested in others thoughts and comments... http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2010//index1.html

Not true. Absolutely not true.

What's not true? The high axial Q of a horn speaker system directs the sound into the room while keeping the sound off the walls, thus minimizing early reflections, This is a big reason why pattern control horns are spec'ed for highly reverberant environments.

[Don Richard]

Lets take the familiar Klipschorn as an example. It resides in a room corner. The K400 midrange is a “controlled directivity” horn. The exit angle of this horn is 90 degrees horizontal and 30 degrees vertical. Since the Khorn is required to be in the room corner residing at a 45 degree angle (in a 90 degree angle corner), the sound radiating from the K400, still radiates sound beyond the 90 degree angle. The horn mouth is only about 18 inches from the side walls. What happens? Sound is reflected off the walls and bounced towards the listening area. We have a time delay between the direct and reflected sound. I find it fascinating (amusing actually) that some people are so concerned about time delay in speaker components while completely ignoring the time delay introduced by room reflections. You are not hearing the speaker. You are hearing the result of the interaction between the speaker and the room.

This will happen below the frequency where the K-400 loses pattern control, around 800-900 Hz. Compared to a direct radiator without waveguides, where pattern control < 90 deg is non-existant at any frequency, you are hearing more of the direct sound.

[ZAKO]

NOT TRUE,,90 deg. is only approximate,,, and sound still will radiate beyond those perrimiters,, diffraction effects still come into play at mouth edge of horn,,wether conical or tracktrix or any shape ,,room reflections will accour..

[artto]

This will happen below the frequency where the K-400 loses pattern control, around 800-900 Hz. Compared to a direct radiator without waveguides, where pattern control < 90 deg is non-existant at any frequency, you are hearing more of the direct sound.

I'm sorry, but you are quite wrong Don. You can argue with me about that one until the cows come home and I'll just tell you that IMHO you haven't gotten far enough into this particular subject otherwise you would not be saying such things (not that a K-400 loses pattern control at X frequency ~ it doesn't really matter). My apologies if I sound arrogant and somewhat curt as that is not my intention.

First of all, we are not comparing anything here in regards to speakers. Nor is this about how much or how little direct sound reaches ones ears, in a reverberant space, or free space. This about live vs. recorded sound. And it is a matter of fact that in an enclosed space (unless its anechoic) you are hearing mostly reflected sound regardless of speaker type or whether its live or reproduced. I was simply using a simplified example to try and explain something explain to Russ.

[artto]

What's not true? The high axial Q of a horn speaker system directs the sound into the room while keeping the sound off the walls, thus minimizing early reflections, This is a big reason why pattern control horns are spec'ed for highly reverberant environments.

And this is absolute hogwash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While it may be true that pattern control horns are spec'd for highly reverberant environments, you've confused the issue of why that is done in those environments with the reason for having a great acoustical environment so you don't have to resort to that sort of thing in the first place, which really is only a "make do with what we can" approach for stadiums and arenas where acoustics take a back seat to everything else. In such large spaces with little or no acoustical treatment this makes sense. But even for a relatively large (say 30x40x15) residential space that approach accomphlishes next to nothing.

[Don Richard]

NOT TRUE,,90 deg. is only approximate,,,

What on earth are you writing about? What I said was that direct radiator speakers rarely have any pattern control.

As for diffraction effects around horn edges, if the horn is large enough to exert pattern control then diffraction effects will be minimal. This basically means that they are inaudible.

[Don Richard]

And this is absolute hogwash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While it may be true that pattern control horns are spec'd for highly reverberant environments, you've confused the issue of why that is done in those environments with the reason for having a great acoustical environment so you don't have to resort to that sort of thing in the first place, which really is only a "make do with what we can" approach for stadiums and arenas where acoustics take a back seat to everything else. In such large spaces with little or no acoustical treatment this makes sense. But even for a relatively large (say 30x40x15) residential space that approach accomphlishes next to nothing.

I know that what you wrote following "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is hogwash, you didn't have to alert me about that. []

You are incorrectly assuming that all listening rooms are acoustically perfect. They aren't. You can either absorb reflections, or not allow them to occur to begin with. Pattern control devices greatly reduce early reflections to begin with. Therefore, less treatment is needed.

[artto]

And this is absolute hogwash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While it may be true that pattern control horns are spec'd for highly reverberant environments, you've confused the issue of why that is done in those environments with the reason for having a great acoustical environment so you don't have to resort to that sort of thing in the first place, which really is only a "make do with what we can" approach for stadiums and arenas where acoustics take a back seat to everything else. In such large spaces with little or no acoustical treatment this makes sense. But even for a relatively large (say 30x40x15) residential space that approach accomphlishes next to nothing.

I know that what you wrote following "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is hogwash, you didn't have to alert me about that.

You are incorrectly assuming that all listening rooms are acoustically perfect. They aren't. You can either absorb reflections, or not allow them to occur to begin with. Pattern control devices greatly reduce early reflections to begin with. Therefore, less treatment is needed.

"You are incorrectly assuming that all listening rooms are acoustically perfect."

EXCUSE ME? Take a look at my avatar Sir.

That is a room that does not have perfect acoustics, but it's pretty **** close. Its mine. I built it. It's had three major revisions. It's been published in several magazines. There's a documentation thread on it here on the Forum. AND it has controlled directivity horns in it.

So, Are you telling me that if I remove all the acoustical treatment the played back sound won't change very much because according to you the controlled directivity horns are greatly reducing early reflections?

ROTFLAMFAO

You need a reality check Sir. And maybe some hearing aids too. I little real world experience, over say 20 or 30 years worth, at least, might help too.

[russ69]

Russ, you are more than welcome to "believe" whatever you want.

Thanx Arrto but you may have not fully understood my point nor may I have fully explained my point. Your quest for the perfect recording of musical events is what we all would like to hear from our systems (if that was the original intent). I have actually heard a few systems that have done a reasonable job of creating this illusion on certain material. Usually very large systems in very large rooms. Anyway, my point is that this is a rare event and restricted to limited recordings played back on systems that exploit a particular recording. It's a worthwhile chase and it may be the Holy Grail we all want to achieve but for me, this "perfect playback" never was able to support the illusion for very long and only on limited demos.

At this point in my life I'm willing to accept that we have a loooooong way to go.

Thanx, Russ