more noticeable - outboard DAC or separate power amp

[amusingisthedawn]

I am looking to eventually do both, but financially I want to make an almost even tradeoff.

I'm going to put my DCD3520 up for sale, but I don't know what will be a better move. Do I buy an outboard DAC (been eyeing up a PS Audio D3), or do I buy a nice 2 channel amp?

Price for both would be in the 500 dollar range. Which one would I listen to a cd with and go...ah yes, that was the better choice?

[wuzzzer]

What are you going to be using to play CDs?

I don't have any experience using an external DAC but I can tell you that a separate amp made a huge improvement to my ears.

[amusingisthedawn]

I'll use my bluray player as a transport until I can afford a nice transport.

Did using an external amp take away any hiss or noise you heard at really high volumes?

[4tay]

Having a power amp in a box separate from the pre amp has always made a bigger difference for me. For a while in the 80's, counterpoint used copper shielding on components to block stray EM/RF/Noise between components. IMO, many integrated amps just aren't properly sheilded between the power output stages, and the sensitive, low level input stages. All else being equal, the same pre-amp stage has always sounded cleaner to me separated from the power amp.

A CDP or DVD OTOH, does not have a power amp section that generates as much stray hash as a power amp. There are far too many great sounding one-box cd/dvd players for me to subscribe to the external dac all the time. I think the improvement with an external dac is more due to the superior dac and circuitry, rather than just physical separation from the transport.

It is not likely that a sub $1,200 CDP will have a DAC equal or better than an outboard dedicated DAC like Bel Canto etc. etc. When you get into the $2k-$3K CDP range, it's quite a big "*IF* and "WHICH DAC* will make any actual improvement, vs just sound different. I know on paper, some 90's one-box were supposed to sound great. But because the analog section was so cheap, an external DAC improved the sound with better parts.

[amusingisthedawn]

So...I would be better spending my money on an amp than an external DAC first? If I buy an amp, I will be using my bd player to listen to cd's since I will have sold my DCD3520 to offset the costs. In doing so, will the amp still make a difference more so than the outboard DAC?

[Chris A]

Newer preamp/processors have pretty good DACs nowadays; about 10 years ago, DACs had quality differences that you could hear. And I believe that oversampling has been the norm for most Blu-Ray or preamp-processors playing CDs. Check your preamp/processor- you may have a good DAC already.

I would avoid analog RCA signal-level cables like the plague (I've got a story on that one). Use HDMI wherever possible between boxes- it's the most immune to noise but can carry SACD/DVD-A output streams. My optical S/PDIF buses have been crippled on both my pre-procs (Outlaw--which is DVI-only, Onkyo) so that they cannot carry these two formats - but the Onkyo's HDMI 1.3a bus can.

You might keep your eyes peeled for new HDMI 1.4 pre/processors hitting the market: these will be able to carry/switch 3-D Blu-Ray video to a 3-D-capable flat screen (if you like that sort of thing). I intend to wait for the prices to drop and the titles to show up first before crossing that bridge.

Chris []

[4tay]

Here is a great pre-SACD example of a SUPERB one-box cdp. The Sony XA7ES. It's DAC was one-bit. It was stunningly revealing, and musically smooth. I felt no need at all to pay more. It STILL sounds great.

[amusingisthedawn]

I don't really understand your message.

If I want to listen to a cd and I want an optimal sound quality...I really don't think running a bd player through hdmi and a newer receiver will be the best solution.

I suppose you are suggesting I would be better spending money on a new amp instead of an outboard dac ultimately though?

[wuzzzer]

I'll use my bluray player as a transport until I can afford a nice transport.

Did using an external amp take away any hiss or noise you heard at really high volumes?

Emotiva's amps have a much higher gain than a lot of amps (I believe its 32dB). Some of their amps aren't recommended with high sensitivity speakers due to hiss that is heard. My LPA-1 does exhibit some hiss through my speakers but I have to be within 2 feet of them to hear it. I don't hear it at all if the room is completely quiet and I'm sitting on my sectional.

The biggest difference I've noticed with an outboard amp is the clarity of the sound at high volumes. Using my receiver as an amp the sound kind of hit a brick wall at a certain point and the dynamics and realism went flat. I can turn my volume up much higher now and everything sounds just as awesome as it does at it does at lower volumes. Sometimes it seems to even sound better.

[wuzzzer]

I don't really understand your message.

If I want to listen to a cd and I want an optimal sound quality...I really don't think running a bd player through hdmi and a newer receiver will be the best solution.

Like was said, today's DACs are a lot better than ones from a while back. I'm using my PS3 as a CD player through HDMI into my receiver. It sounds superb.

[willland]

I am going to throw you a curve right now. Sell your Panasonic BD player and your Denon CD player. You want great DACs(Burr-Brown PCM-1796) and top shelf video processing(Silicon Optix's Realta chip) and rock solid build quality(23.1 pounds), you can't go wrong here. I almost pulled the trigger myself but it is too tall(5-9/16 inches) to fit on my shelf. This is a $2000.00 player.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARBD8002B/Marantz/Bd8002-Reference-Blu-ray-Dvd-Player/1.html

By the way I have an Acurus A150(150w/ch) amp I could sell you. Lot's of punch down low with fine detail in mids and highs.

Bill

[amusingisthedawn]

If that was the case...I would prefer to buy an oppo bd83 SE. This is something I still might do because the load time on the panasonic is awful!

I would still eventually buy an outboard dac to use with the oppo. But my question still remains...

Do I do that, or do I buy an amp? What will my ears be thanking me for more?

[willland]

Do I do that, or do I buy an amp? What will my ears be thanking me for more?

With my systems, amps have made the most difference. When I added my B&K amp to my Onkyo receiver, my RF-63's took on a whole new dimension. Seperation/detail and punch were obvious from the get go. All the fine details and better bass even at lower volumes. I hooked the Acurus up to my Marantz 2252B and powered my Quartet's and was blown away by the pounding bass and really detailed highs. I gained all that and still kept the warm Marantz mids all with a 20 year old cheap HH Scott CD player. Go for the amp first.

Bill

[RockOn4Klipsch]

If that was the case...I would prefer to buy an oppo bd83 SE. This is something I still might do because the load time on the panasonic is awful!

I would still eventually buy an outboard dac to use with the oppo. But my question still remains...

Do I do that, or do I buy an amp? What will my ears be thanking me for more?

I think the amp would be the better purchase depending on what you are currently have doing the DAC, I noticed a big difference when I went from the onkyo 806 (which has Burr Brown 1796 pcm dacs) to the Aragon Stage One I have now. To me the sound was much better, now this may also be the difference in the amp as I went seperates when I sold the 806.

If you do plan on getting an outboard DAC I wouldn't suggest spending the additional money on the bdp 83 se as the se is for analog unless the outboard dac your looking at has an 8 ch analog input and don't mind another ADC and the another DAC.

[amusingisthedawn]

Hmm...so 2 votes for the amp

[4tay]

"It's just a chip."

Too much emphasis is placed on the DAC. The Digital to Analog Converter is just a chip... it costs $5- $20 retail. The early DAC's (Like the sony I pointed out) worked perfectly. The problem is, in Japan they had a tendency to produce a product based on just math and theory. They made something that ON PAPER looked like it was going to do the job. It did, but in a sterile kind of way.

Like many early products,they had to figure out how to tweak the other parts of the DAC that come after the chip has help convert those 1's and zeros to more than just analog voltages. California Audio labs tried to help this with a vacuum tube stage in the tempest cdp.

I like to use Bel Canto because they were among the early external DAC's that were ear-tuned as well as theory built. Rather than just a cold schematic dictating what parts went where, they actually did a lot of listening tests and found that one box or two box, the analog section was most often ignored--like an afterthought.

The ripple effect was, to produce cdp's/outboard DAC that were not just lifeless digital conversion tools, but more able to produce analog-like music. It's been many years since I have heard a nails-on-a chalkboard cd player, or one of those arid, lifeless models as well.

As someone pointed out---even the Sony PS/3 has better audio performance than many high end devices did years ago Want a cdp for a grand that REALLY sound musical? Get a modded Ah Tjoeb!, or a hotrodded Jolida CDP and save a lot of money over spendy DACS and gimmicks. You will get intimate musicality, and it's about listenability, not the crystal, Burr-brown or whatever dac they use. That, and a separate amp/pre amp. "It's just a chip."

[amusingisthedawn]

I'll take that as another vote for an amp.

However...I feel you are being a little skeptical on outboard DACs. They wouldn't be popular and be producing ones that cost such an outrageous amount of money if it was "just a chip" that made the sound different. From my own research and a few opinions here and there, I am still on route to find a decent DAC and see for myself. I think spending 500 on a DAC and 500 on a Transport would make a better player then 1000 dollar "all in one box".

[4tay]

I'll take that as another vote for an amp.

However...I feel you are being a little skeptical on outboard DACs. They wouldn't be popular and be producing ones that cost such an outrageous amount of money if it was "just a chip" that made the sound different. From my own research and a few opinions here and there, I am still on route to find a decent DAC and see for myself. I think spending 500 on a DAC and 500 on a Transport would make a better player then 1000 dollar "all in one box".

I say a DAC is a chip---because too many people are worried what kind of DAC is used. "OMFG! It uses a Mjolnir thunder DAC!!!" Ok great. Now what about the analog section? And why is it a $8 crystal DAC can sound as good as another player that uses a $18.00 DAC chip?

An old Sony 1-bit DAC with a great analog section will sound as good as any dac assembly today. It's not just the chip people need to worry about, it's the whole player or DAC device.

Yes, some outboard DAC's are better than some one-box players, but make no assumptions unless you have heard them---you can't always go by price, or by the fact it's a separate.

That's also why I mentioned a hot rodded Jolida or Ah Tjoeb tube cdp. They have amazing musicality and won't run 2-3 grand or more to own.

But either way, it seems you already pre-decided you were going the DAC route and basically found opinions supporting your desire to do so. Posting about it was just going through the paces to an inevitability. Nothing wrong with that route, because listening--not cost or configuration is the key.

[amusingisthedawn]

I thought it was already implied that I had already decided to get a DAC. I originally asked what would make more sense to buy first (as will eventually buy both). You didn't really touch on the amp aspect. Would you spend 500 dollars on a 2 channel, maybe multi channel amp or 500 dollars on a DAC? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't spend it on a DAC at this point []

[4tay]

I thought it was already implied that I had already decided to get a DAC. I originally asked what would make more sense to buy first (as will eventually buy both). You didn't really touch on the amp aspect. Would you spend 500 dollars on a 2 channel, maybe multi channel amp or 500 dollars on a DAC? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't spend it on a DAC at this point

Not if I was budget limited. But a used $500 tube dac will sound pretty impressive.