NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Well I was just about to take the snips to all the wiring and remove all the tube sockets. But the discussion else where on this forum made me just too curious to do that just yet. Although it is definitely happening yet this week. I went ahead and spent a few hours sorting out the rats nest from the previous hacker that seems to have installed modern signal wire in the amp. Why he did I will never know. To go to all that trouble and then make all the wire unequal length and do a solder job that looks like it was done with a blow torch I just can't make sense of it just doesn't fit into my personality LOL !! So I resoldered and traced all the wires to make sure they were in there proper position's in fact I resoldered every connection under the chassis. I also retentioned and cleaned all the tube sockets. I cleaned all the pots and switches. Then I installed all the Original Mullard 12AX7's and new Phillips Jan 12AU7's and a new set of JJ 6BQ5's. The weird channel problems are gone it now play's in stereo. How's it sound well can't say just yet its to late to turn it up. But it has a channel output Imbalance at low volume (no big deal I've dealt with that before). My first impression are that it does have a nice sound to it. But my listening is very limited. I may end up eating crow on this one . Mobile I hope your ears aren't ringing LOL !! I will give it a serious listen tomorrow and report back. Good night all Craig ------------------ (Music Work Shop) HH Scott 299 Amp HH Scott P87 Turn Table HH Scott Tube FM Tuner LT-110B Sony CD 5 DISC C315 Heresey 1985 Oil Walnut Klipsch KSW-15 Sub (HT and 2 Channel Room) HH Scott Tube Amp 222C Sony DE-975 AV Receiver Sony NS-900P DVD Syenrgy SF-2 mains KSC-C1 Center Channel KSW-15 Sub SS-1 Surrounds Promedia 5.1 for the PC This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-25-2002 at 03:28 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Ditch the JAN Philips 12AU7 tubes. The two 12AU7 in these units are very important and those are VERY lame tubes that are on the glassy and harsh side, with rather mediocre resolution. They work, but that is about it. If you have any good 12AU7 in your stash, get a pair as closely matched as possible. BTW, matching is not a crock and can even be done by your lonesome with a well-functioning, mutual conductance tube tester such as the various Hickok units. Man, if you can resolder EVERY connection in that amp in one sitting you have come quite a long way with thy soldering iron. That is quite a task of patience. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 Yea it does take some patience. I truely believe that I was born with this stuff in my blood ! I just never new it. My Dad's been working on Ham units for 45 years and I showed him everything that I did to my 222C and he had seen it before it was done. His response was "man you solder better than I do" LOL !!!!! It really didn't take that long I didn't remove all the connection's I just reheated them and added some fresh solder to insure there were no pesky cold joints. Well I'm off to give it a listen. I'll check my tube stash for something better than the phillips. The unit only had one mullard 12AU7 in it when I recieved it. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 04:54 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 Oh also I'm not saying that matching isn't important or that it can't be done. I'm saying that there are no dealers that do a proper job matching today's low quality tubes. They would have to run them hot/cold for a week or two to get them to settle to there semi constant state. Do you have a mutual conductance tube tester ? I do and I'm telling you that there idea of a matched set of tubes is real broad to say the least. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 04:54 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 I have a Hickok 800K that has been recalibrated and is working properly. Of course, all vintage tube testers can be finicky to a certain extent. Getting the proper measurements here involves more than a single run through. I agree that SOME dealers do not match tubes very well. But when you deal with Brandon and Kevin Deal, they do a very nice job of matching the tubes and are VERY knowledable. I am not sure what you are talking about via modern tubes. I have ordered Svetlana EL-34 as well as the JJ and EI EL-84 and have had GOOD results from the pairs matching done. My Sovtek 2A3 are VERY closely matched as well. Ditto with a set of KR2A3 and the RCA JAN 2A3 CRC VT95. I don't know where you have been getting your tubes but I seem to have better luck here. I have only purchased a matched quad one time and that was with a set of Svetlana EL-34(It wasnt even necessary). None of my amps really require a matched quad of outputs (regarding your other post in another thread, you only bias the output tubes. The driver circuit can be tweaked or optimized, but you dont actually bias these tubes. Obviously, you want matching pairs if dealing with left and right channel). I agree that many places offer this matching aspect and you sometimes pay for it with conflicting results. However, to say that matching is a crock and that all dealers are useless in this area is far from the truth. Craig, I respect your enthusiasm here but you have to admit, you just started messing with tube amps a few months ago. You are making a lot of claims about circuits, parts, tubes, dealers, and sonics with jnot a helluva lot of experience. I am not trying to say your judgements are invalid in as much as sometimes it takes some time to sample the waters here and gain some experience. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-25-2002 at 10:57 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 Mobile First off could you please relay which of two names relates to which company and I can tell you if I've bought from them. Also with your rather forwardness on all the various Audio related message boards I would expect them all to send you top notch choices. I was told by one of the dealers that his match sets aren't even match by him but at the factory !!! I don't know if that's one of the guy's you mentioned or not. Now I did as you requested and removed the Philips Jan tubes and used my stash Bugle boys. Now your going to hate hearing this but I'm really not all that impressed compared to my Scott's. This isn't really a fair comparison yet but I find with my Heresy's and a KSW-15 sub my HF-81 is nothing short of Harsh in the highs. But it does put out some awesome bass. I'm surprised that the 2 together don't seem to even out. I couldn't imagine in the current state the EICO is in spending hours listening to it. It would fatigue my ears. I gave a good listen with Fleetwood Mac the entire rumors CD. Then I switched to my 299 and instantly had to turn down the sub and it just sounded way smoother and pleasing to the Ears. What did surprise me in the slam effect of this little Amp it puts out some excellent tight bass much tighter than my 299. I think that is why it sounds so harsh with the heresy's my 222C which was modded to put out better base didn't sound as good as my 299 on the heresy's either. So as things stand now I'm going to have to say with my Heresy's and KSW-15 Sub the Scott 299 wins and its completely stock except new Cup Caps under the chassis of the same original Values(which wasn't the least bit needed and did nothing +/- for the amp). Also as I thought I would find the lower quality of the parts and layout of this amp causes lots of hums and hisses this could just be the hacked wiring job but I fixed most of that. Before you blame this on bad caps they all test fine or at least as good as my Scott's were when I received them. My Scott's were completely dead silent at full volume except on the Phono stages. Which all amp have hiss in these stages even brand new SS has it. Next I'm firing up some LP's and see how it does there. although this stage is extremely noisy. I want to make something absolutely clear this is by no means a final verdict just sharing the progress of a basket case example of a HF-81 that I purchased others may have great luck with better examples of these Amps. I also would like to add that the reviews that everyone has read were for units that were in good or great shape when the reviewers bought them or paid little to nothing for them. I wonder how they would feel if they paid the top dollar these Amps go for now ? Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:01 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 I have never heard anyone say the highs via the EICO HF-81 are harsh at all. In fact, that is one of their strengths. Who knows. I have no idea how you have your system or amp configured. Just count yourself lucky you got a great Scott to listen to and you paid very little for the EICO. Perhaps you could sell it for top dollar and make a bit of a profit and not feel too bad since you have the soldering done. Count yourself lucky you have both. Of course, my listening comparisons brought about totally different conclusions both in the comparison and in the actual assessment of the individual pieces. Each to his own as it were. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 Oh I'm not going to sell it. I going to fix it, Improve it and then if it still doesn't please me sell it. Have you ever heard the HF-81 on a pair of heresy's ?? Heresy's can be extremely harsh speakers. With out a sub there harsh to some extent on all my amps. But with my Sub and my 299 there nothing short of amazing. I've had a dozen people listen to my 299/Heresy combo and all they say is can we find me one !! I'm telling you I'm no expert on audio but ears are ears and my ears say I have a awesome setup with the 299/Heresy's. Again let me state that this could all be a mute point with the way my HF-81 was put together! It really needs a complete rebuild from scratch. Oh you didn't answer what companies those guy's are connected with ?? I'm curious maybe I'm buying from the wrong places. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:04 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 I dont like subs too much. I just have never found them to work to my liking on 2 channel. I think they are GREAT with home theater. I have good friends that love subs. Personally, I find that they mar my system's presentation. As I am not exactly a Home Theater nut either, I dont currently own a sub (or HT for that matter). My brother has $$$$ sunk into his HT and it is all fun and games watching Gladiator at his abode. Our system's couldnt be more far apart in theory and presentation. Never heard the EICO on the Heresy. I have heard them (I own two at the moment although ole Edster00 is trying to talk trade for the second) on many different speakers, however. All types. The HF-81 is magic on my Cornwall I. Easily some of the best push pull I have heard on them. As for tubes, I have only gotten tubes either directly or indirectly from Neds, Tube World, or Upscale Audio. I have bought plenty of tubes from other Audio Freaks that I trust, so have sampled from all over. I test all my purchases on my Hickok 800k. Kevin Deal does some SERIOUS testing but you pay for it a bit. If I were to comment on your system, I might say that they Song CDP is not exactly a smooth wonder. I have never liked Song CDP except for some of their top end gear. In addition, I think the HF-81 when working properly is a very extended amplifier with excellent treble. I dont know what is going on there. But I am more senstitive to treble problems than the average listener as this is VERY important to me. I could not stand harsh treble for three seconds which is one of the reasons I have moved on to Single-ended designs, which offer some of the smoothest, most grain free treble you will find. The Directly headted triode run in class A with no feedback is amazing in this regard. Yet the HF-81 has an extremely open and refined treble, which is what is so amazing about this amp and something that makes it stand apart from other offerings. OF course, the bass is VERY good as well. But that is not as important to me as midrange and a proper top end without glare. That is why I hate the JAN Philips tubes. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-25-2002 at 02:33 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 Well from what I have been told by other owner of Heresy's that a sub is almost a must if you like bass in the lower regions below 50. I think from what you have stated there must be something going wrong with this HF-81 which wouldn't surprise me at all. That's why I've refrain from using it from the beginning. When I first started listening to it this time I didn't use my Heresy's. I used a set of Fisher's that I use to test a Amp out before I put my Heresy's in harms way. There really not bad speakers but designed for the SS gear of the early 80's. The HF-81 was much less harsh with those speakers. But your going to hate me saying this my HH Scott SS amp from the early 70's sounds better with them (which isn't the case with my Scott's they sound better with the Fishers). With all the raves that others state about the 81 pretty much tells me there must be something wrong somewhere that is making it sound so harsh. In fact you mention sweet mid range and that hits the nail on the head. It seems to be missing most if not all of the mids range that it should have. Maybe this is a clue I need to chase down. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:04 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 Mobile I'm not sure if you noticed I took the philips out and I'm using Amperex's out of my Scott tuner that test real close match. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:06 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Yep, I saw you replaced the 12AU7. I think you should sell it. Make some ducats. Get rid of the junk. Get some profit! Stop goofing around! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 Yee of little faith ! This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:05 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Craiger, un-check the "Show Signature" option once you have posted in the a thread with the full signature. Otherwise, it is like superfluous knobs and gadgets... Be aware when thy signature is longer than thy post. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 mobile your alway's looking for a reason to nit pic aren't ya . But thanks for the tip never noticed that button. This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 04:53 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 There no more buttons,bells and whistles This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-25-2002 at 08:15 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Ahhh, I was just giving you a hard time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 cleaning the thread This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:13 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 NOS440(Craig) This is not an attempt to change your mind but ask a question or two. I own a HF81 and have never experienced the "harsh" highs you speak of. In fact, it was one of the dramatic differences between the sound using the HF81 as opposed to a 100 wpc SS unit and ss preamp. I have connected the Eico to a pair of Belles and Cornwalls. I do happen to also have a pair of Heresys that I have never connected to the Eico. I will try do so either late tonight or tomorrow evening just to see if the same holds true for me. Wish I could do it sooner but work and all the other family chores reign supreme. So.. What are you using for rectifier tubes? They were the first tubes I rolled and it really helped the overall sound of the unit which was already good. Again, I'm not suggesting you go out and spend money, it's just a question. About where is the volume indicator when using the Heresys, 4 o'clock, 6 'oclock? I will try to use similar volume though CDP output etc may vary. I will connect without a sub. I will post my experience as soon as I can. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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