La Scala Squawker Mounting - New Tops

[BE36]

Is there any advantage to lowering the Squawker?

When building new tops could there be an advantage to Lowering the sqauwer - Improve imaging since the Sqauwker Horn would be closer to the Bass Bin?

Would there be a similiar advantage to lowering the Tweeter to be as close as possible to the Sqauwker?

[Coytee]

I suspect the horn lengths are more of your problem than the spacing between them.

That said, I think the REAL booger here is 3-way. If you are going to build some new tops for your LaScalas then if you want to make a substantial improvement in their sound, sell the K400/77 and crossover and get yourself a Klipsch K510 horn K69 driver and create a JubeScala.

Losing one crossover point and having ALL of your sound from roughly 500hz on up coming from one horn will go a great distance to creating more of a point source type sound.

If you want to go balls to the wall, simply put a K402 on top. I can appreicate people not wanting to do that. You should give some serious contemplation to the K510 upgrade.

Put differently.... If you are driving a Mustang and dump "X" dollars into new engine, new tires, new suspension....you still have a zippy Mustang. What if however, you applied those same dollars towards a Corvette....

Not to create a Ford/Chevy or Mustang/Corvette debate... my point is simply you might get better bang for your buck than rebuilding that which you have.

In the case of using a K510 which you could incorporate quite easily into a top-hat, you can rest assured that all of the engineering has been done to make it sound great.

You would however, probably need to go active & biamp. I do not know that a passive crossover design exists for this combo. In fact, I do NOT think a passive exists...

How far are you from Bay City?? (I've never been to Michigan other than a 12 hour jaunt to Detroit) If you are close to Bay City, I'll bet Bob would welcome an audition to hear his Jubilees... not the same thing I know however, he's using the K510 for them so that would give you an idea of what the upper end would sound like.

[BE36]

Thanks for volunteering Bob's system.

I would love to hear it to answer some of the questions I have.

Drive and Fly near Bay City several times year, almost once a month.

Bob's would be listing to Biamping in a similiar enviroment and system as compared to the only time I have really heard Biamping - Movie Theaters.

Going to some quality movie theaters:

1) Paladium - JBL

2) IMAX - Klipch

Bi-amp'd systems have sounded very good especially since they are not starting with is as much data compated to TrueHD etc.

But my questions are:

What is at fault?

Well engineered room treatements and locations?

Room Design?

Room Size?

Biamping?

Better Amps?

Better Horns?

Better Drivers?

I would guess all have some effect, How much is due to Biamping?

The concerns I have with going active:

1) I, a Mechanical Engineer, do not know what I am doing electrically outside of House Wiring. (Sounds like DX38 with Roy's seting may solve some of this)

2) Would I have to buy another set of VRDs or could I use Adcom' 545s that I already have for the Woofers?

3) Would an ALK ES600 as a Two-Way to the K510 do almost as good?

Better? (After the signal has been converted from Digital to Analog what are the issues with the DBx going through another set of D/A - A/D conversions?)

(Probably about 6 threads worth of discusions above, 6 more below.

I am pretty happy with sound right now with VRDs, Fastrac Sqauwker Horns and JBL 2404 tweeters.

The main reason for revising the Cabinet Tops was to accomodate JBL 2405s or JBL 2404s and keep them looking stock for WAF reasons.

I wanted K-Horns, my wife liked and actually wanted La Scalas.

She is into Art and Mission Furnature and thinks they look really Cool.

House is way too small for K-Horns.

Looks like a K510 would be a good fit for keeping the stock look and get rid of this box on top!

[Coytee]

Thanks for volunteering Bob's system.

I'm only too happy to volunteer someone's home [] Having talked to Bob and set this up before, I have little doubt that he'd love to share them.

I would love to hear it to answer some of the questions I have.

Drive and Fly near Bay City several times year, almost once a month.

I'll email Bob on Monday when I get back to work and flag this thread to him.

Bob's would be listing to Biamping in a similiar enviroment and system as compared to the only time I have really heard Biamping - Movie Theaters.

Bob is actually using a passive on his Jubilees/510, not active.

Going to some quality movie theaters:

1) Paladium - JBL

2) IMAX - Klipch

Bi-amp'd systems have sounded very good especially since they are not starting with is as much data compated to TrueHD etc.

But my questions are:

What is at fault?

Got me... I'd imagine they have several issues fixed that the typical homeowner doesn't. (as you illustrate below)

Well engineered room treatements and locations? Room Design? Room Size? Biamping? Better Amps? Better Horns? Better Drivers?

I would guess all have some effect, How much is due to Biamping?

I suspect the biamping helps with the coherence of the sound coming at you since you can delay the signal inside the active.

The concerns I have with going active:

1) I, a Mechanical Engineer, do not know what I am doing electrically outside of House Wiring. (Sounds like DX38 with Roy's seting may solve some of this)

You're right. Roy has already engineered the soloution. I don't know how I can say this...I don't want it to sound rude....but trust me... if a dummy like ME can take Roy's 'recipe' of parts and get it working then someone with your background could understandably have some issues and complications [] Seriously... it's amost plug, program and play. The only proglem you will probably run into is the counfounded RCA/XLR exchanges. They create a hum in my system so I bought an Art Cleanbox transformer and that kills the hum. If I had a preamp with XLR outputs then I don't think I'd have any issues. Then again, if I knew more about what I was doing... I once touched a wire from a chassis screw on my Dx38 to ...well, I forget. Anyways, the moment I tied the Dx and (I think) my preamp together, the hum just died. I think it's an issue between these two items and grounding. I have another preamp that has much less of a hum issue.

2) Would I have to buy another set of VRDs or could I use Adcom' 545s that I already have for the Woofers?

You can technically use ANY amp you want to use so yes...the Adcom would probably work fine. All you would want to do is take the input sensativty of each amp, plug them into the forumla 20*Log(V1/V2) and what ever that number is (even if it's positive or negative), you would want to attenuate the more sensative amp (with the smaller input sensativity number) by this number. You can do this inside something like the Dx38 and by doing so, you have just matched the outputs of your amps.

3) Would an ALK ES600 as a Two-Way to the K510 do almost as good?

Key word "almost". I had one of Al's ES networks hooked up to my Jubilee's and got it working while I was waiting on the Dx to arrive. I would say no that if you heard them side by side, you would opt for the Dx. Also... (remember, I'm not too technical on this stuff) but I think there is a boost in the HF on the K69 tweeter driver. I'm not sure Al can boost that section unless he attenuates the LF section.

Better? (After the signal has been converted from Digital to Analog what are the issues with the DBx going through another set of D/A - A/D conversions?)

I would say you'd be fine. I happen to have an extra Dx38 'laying around' that I could send you to play with for a while. That might answer some of your questions in a real world sense and illuminate any compatability issues that might arise?? You could also take it and TRIAMP a single LaScala and put that up agasint the other LaScala with Al's passive. (The Dx is 2 in 4 out but has parallel inputs so you can use up to 4 lines on one speaker)

(Probably about 6 threads worth of discusions above, 6 more below.

I am pretty happy with sound right now with VRDs, Fastrac Sqauwker Horns and JBL 2404 tweeters.

Having never heard the Fastrac, the difference between those (Fastrac / 2404) and the 510 might be best manifested in the loss of the crossover point. Let me put it this way... when I had my Khorns (Al's ES networks and 2404 with the K401), I stumbled onto the fact that it took them about 30 FEET before their sound bubble converged into a single bubble and they sounded NOTICABLY better. Once I got the Jubilee's, I soon went to that 30' spot to hear the increase in sound quality....but....never heard it. They sounded as good about 10' away from them when I had to be about 30' from my Khorns to get the same coherency in sound. Originally, I attributed that to the signal alignment however, (Thanks Ben), it was pointed out to me that the REAL difference I was hearing was the fact that they were now 2-way verses 3-way. I fooled around with an experiment using delay to help prove that to myself. I'm here to tell you..... do this with your LaScalas... drag ONE of them outside. Play a mono-signal to it and start to walk backward. There will come a distance where you will go "Shazam....that sounds SO much better here than up close" (up close might be defined as anything inside of 20 feet). Once you have this revelation, if you then put a K510 on top and biamped it, you would then find out that you get the same coherency of sound inside this same sphere of 20'. At least, this was my experience with Khorns. So, I think taking the LaScala down to a 2-way will accomplish the same thing. also, I think Roy has a PEQ inside the Dx that helps to tame the sidwalls of the Lascala from resonating. Might not fix it, just helps it.

The main reason for revising the Cabinet Tops was to accomodate JBL 2405s or JBL 2404s and keep them looking stock for WAF reasons.

If you put a grill on the front, she'll never know what's behind them. You can make anything WAF

I wanted K-Horns, my wife liked and actually wanted La Scalas.

She is into Art and Mission Furnature and thinks they look really Cool.

House is way too small for K-Horns.

Looks like a K510 would be a good fit for keeping the stock look and get rid of this box on top!

Yep

by the way...that's an honest offer on the Dx38. I already have the box that was used to ship it from me to someone and they then sent it down to someone else in New Orleans. It's made the rounds (the tramp [] )

[BE36]

Wow. Thanks!.

[Coytee]

Looks like a K510 would be a good fit for keeping the stock look and get rid of this box on top!

I finally saw this picture. (at home, I'm on a slow pc connection....price I pay for living 15 miles out of town)

Those are some pretty LaScalas. I would speculate you would probably prefer to NOT cut the motorboard where the K401/77 are mounted. I know that I would not want to. Indeed, my LaScalas (which I bought in 1979) will probably never become JubeScalas because I don't think I could bring myself around to actually cutting them up. They've been with me wayyyyyyyyy too long and seen too much of my life.... (yeah, I can be a sentimental dummy at times over the silliest of things)

Maybe you can cut into your LaScalas... power to you. I'd be less inclined to cut mine if they looked like yours.

Regardless.... the nice thing is you can always try the 510 out on top like your current situation and if you find the need, can always make the change later. In case you have not seen Pat's JubeScalas, I'll see if I can post a picture

[jhoak]

Interesting possibilities []

My La Scalas are built to be able to replace the motorboard in the tophat quick and easy. It wouldn't take much more than a Saturday afternoon to cut new motorboards with K510 horns.

So here's the BIG question... What kind of coin am I looking at? Are the K510/K69 parts readilly available? Can a K510 owner tell me what the dimensions are?

This is them while they were still "under construction"

[Olorin]

IIRC the K510 is about $750 each through the mothership, but that's off the top of my head from memory, and I'm sure it will be corrected if I'm out. Now it's kind of an open secret that the K69 driver is the P.Audio BMD-750, which is $200 just about anywhere online, and it mates with the PH-4525 horn for $85. There is also a $50 Parts Express Goldwood horn that appears to be a direct copy of the PH-4525.

But -- there's always a but, right? -- neither the 4525 nor the Goldwood is the Klipsch horn, and I'd expect there is some tasty Delgado secret sauce in the 510 horn.

Rudy81 has an extensive thread on converting his La Scalas to two-way using the P.Audio horn and driver combo.

[Coytee]

You are correct that the price is 'about' $750/each (as far as I recall)

Regarding the K510, I think Roy calls it a 'modified tractrix' or something like that where he's mated two different horn types into a single unit???? (I don't really know)

I DO know that on the K402 and the picture of the 510 above, you can see some sort of 'bend' inside the horn. I think this is the transition from one flair rate to another. Looks like a vertical one on either side of the inside of the horn.

[BE36]

Looks like a K510 would be a good fit for keeping the stock look and get rid of this box on top!

I finally saw this picture. (at home, I'm on a slow pc connection....price I pay for living 15 miles out of town)

Those are some pretty LaScalas. I would speculate you would probably prefer to NOT cut the motorboard where the K401/77 are mounted. I know that I would not want to. Indeed, my LaScalas (which I bought in 1979) will probably never become JubeScalas because I don't think I could bring myself around to actually cutting them up. They've been with me wayyyyyyyyy too long and seen too much of my life.... (yeah, I can be a sentimental dummy at times over the silliest of things)

Maybe you can cut into your LaScalas... power to you. I'd be less inclined to cut mine if they looked like yours.

Regardless.... the nice thing is you can always try the 510 out on top like your current situation and if you find the need, can always make the change later. In case you have not seen Pat's JubeScalas, I'll see if I can post a picture

Pictured below are the La Scala bins that will be modified.

When I am done modifing these the La Scalas above will sold in Stock Configuration, Mint Condition.

I picked the bins up in New York for less than $100

1" Sides, some exotic vaneer, etc.

Still deciding on which horns and drivers.

Still looking for a third cabinet like these for the Center Channel.

[Coytee]

Pictured below are the La Scala bins that will be modified.

Ohhhhhhhh, I hope you have a nice Sawzall.... 'cause I'm thinking once you hear some of these configuration suggestions your Sawzall trigger finger will soon be twitching for some action.

Just let me know when.

[ap].......................................................

[BobRiff]

BE36 (and Coytee),

Not exactly sure what you guys are up to, but I've e-mailed BE36 to see if he's up to making the "trip" to Bay City

I have no problem acting as a Jubilee Ambassador.

Hell, with enough Sawzalling, I might end up with the center channel for my living room K-Horns that I've always wanted. []