Denon DL-301 II vs Denon 103R Anybody?

[thebes]

Broke my Zu103 for the last time, but I did like its' sound. However, surface noise even with pristine vinyl was a definite issue with my Empire/Ortofon RS 212 arm combo. I'm thinking of the 103R but it's the same shape needle so I'm worried about having the same noise problem with the 103r as I had with the 103.

So I'm thinking the 301 which is not specifically described as, but is probably, a fine-line. It has a slightly higher gain at .4 vs. .3 and doesn't appear to have been developed as a radio cart so the highs and the lows might be more balanced. Potential drawback is it's a light cart for a mid-to-high mass tonearm, and tracks a lot lighter than the 103 or 103r. Hate sterile music though, so "neutral" doesn't necessarily appeal to me.

Oh yeah, the 310 has a metal body and is impregnated with resin, which is basically what Zu does with it's mods.

So, why are you reading when you could be typing? []

[HarryO]

I don't really know. I'm old fashioned with TTs and carts.

[fini]

Marty, you know you can retip the Zu with a different type of stylus, right? Is it the lack of stylus guard that's made you wary of the Zu? What are your plans for the broken Zu?

FYI (and I know you already know), the 301 is available from Comet, for less dough than the 103R.

[thebes]

It's already been retipped twice. I think the extra weight of the Zu causes the tips to fall off. There is no more shaft to put a new tip onto.I barely tapped the the headshell, not the cart, and it fell off the last time. If I get the 103R I could conceivably take off the Zu body and use it on that, but again, I'm concerned with the surface noise I get using the 103 and am concerned that I will get the same using the 103R.

Was not aware of Comet. Those are incredible prices. Thanks for the heads-up. (now I'm wondering if I could stretch the budget to a 304).

[fini]

Well, the Zu body certainly has value. You could offer it here, or sell on Audiogon. If you send it in to a place like Sound Smith, they replace the entire cantilever along with the stylus (from $150 for the basic aluminum cantilever/ nude eliptical stylus, to $350 for a ruby cantilever with an "optimized contour nude contact line" stylus. There's a significant number of folks that would have (and have had) this done.

I'm surprised you've not heard of Comet. I read about them first (I think) at the Vinyl Asylum, then here (Mike Lindsay picked up a 103R from them). There have been reports that often one must be patient with them, as I think they do not stock a lot of the cartridges. 2-6 weeks is not uncommon, but they're a real, honest business (pick up some janitorial supplies, while yer at it).

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?forum=vinyl&searchtext=comet+supply

[tk49]

It's already been retipped twice. I think the extra weight of the Zu causes the tips to fall off. There is no more shaft to put a new tip onto.I barely tapped the the headshell, not the cart, and it fell off the last time. If I get the 103R I could conceivably take off the Zu body and use it on that, but again, I'm concerned with the surface noise I get using the 103 and am concerned that I will get the same using the 103R.

Was not aware of Comet. Those are incredible prices. Thanks for the heads-up. (now I'm wondering if I could stretch the budget to a 304).

Thebes, how many hours before you tip stared to fall off, I've had the Zu103R for about a year and play maybe 20-25 a month. I bought another 103R from Comet last spring and was planning on sending to Zu. Now with your limp tip experience I'm wondering if or when I will see the same. As far as surface noise, I haven't felt it was all that bad, just figured it was all part of the vinyl game.

P.S. Are you frequenting those DC bars again?

t

[thebes]

Now, now TK. "Frequent "is a relative term.[]

Ok, first I broke the needle while installing it. The Zu has no needle guard a terrible failing on their part. next, the partial shaft/retip, done by Soundsmith fell off and the owner of said company is sure it was from dropping the needle too hard. For free, I might add, he cut off more shaft and retipped that. Next, I accidentally hit the front of the headshell with my finger. A light tap is how I would describe it, and then the new shaft fell off. I really don't think it's Sounsmith's fault, but the extra weight of the Zu on a retip.

Now as for you having Zu mod yours, that different. Except for breaking it while trying to put it on your headshell because there is no stylus guard, the shaft should be fine. As far as a retip, again, I'm not so sure.

As far as noise, yes even the cleanest records will give off some noise, but what I was experiencing with the 103 was more than that. That's why I thinking hard about the 301 even though it's a highergain, with lower weight and tracking, for use on a medium to higher weight arm.

Hence my positng the initial question.

[tk49]

Now as for you having Zu mod yours, that different. Except for breaking it while trying to put it on your headshell because there is no stylus guard

I have to say I had the same problem when I first mounted mine, Didn't seem to mater how careful I was, bent it and sent it back, fortunately they were able to straighten it. As far as surface noise, I can only compare the Zu103R on a VPI Scout to a Thorens TD 160 with a Grado Gold cart, I felt there was a major improvement in all aspects.

t

[thebes]

Called Comet and indeed they are fast. A shipment had just come in and with back orders there were but two of the 301's left so i ordered one. Should be here by the weekend.

The guy told me I was lucky because it usually takes 6 to 8 weeks.

I told him my name was Thebes and when your a Thebes that's how it should be.

[fini]

Obviously you also mentioned my name. You probably didn't even realize it!

I await your detailed review, sir!

[thebes]

Hard to believe but two days later it's in my house via the Post Office of all places. It's mounted, but not yet quite dialed in. Comet indeed.

Reports will be forthcoming.

[tom b. 57]

Hard to believe but two days later it's in my house via the Post Office of all places. It's mounted, but not yet quite dialed in. Comet indeed.

Reports will be forthcoming.

Thebes, I am breathlessly waiting for some feedback on the DL-301.

I am a man of meager means and am in search of a good MC cart. at a price I can live with and it appears this cart. is one of the few within my grasp.

I was considering the 103, but, it costs a little more than I want to spend at this time.

Tom

[thebes]

Sorry Tom, I just caught your inquiry.

Only about 10 hours so far so not even past breakin, but I do like this cart. To me it's more coherent across the spectrum than the 103. One caveat. The pace doesn't seem as fast , maybe not as lush. My main problem with the 103 besides the noise, was it was true to it's nature as a "radio" cart. It helped capture the crusin in the car with as good tune on feeling. Which is nice, but I want more from a sophisticated stereo setup than a better FM car radio felling, so the 301 may fit the bill, and turn out to be a keeper at it's price point.

If you are going Denon, those Comet prices are insanely good and well worth the wait.

Need to know more about your preamp, cart, arm, table, loading options etc. to offer more than feel-good advice. Since this is a light cart with a light tracking force,a fairly high gain for a MC, I suspect it's more system dependent that a go-anywhere-do anything 103 or 103R. At 20 bucks more the 103R could be what you are looking for, but again, it depends.

Quite frankly I'm learning this as I go along, and am far from an expert, but I do know what makes my ears happy.

[tom b. 57]

Thebes, I will be using it on a JVC QL-Y5F turntable with an electro dynamic servo tonearm. It is a med. to heavy arm.

I used to have an Ortofon MC 10 MK II mounted on it. But now have a Shure M97xe.

I miss the detail that the Ortofon brought out of the vinyl.

I have thought about another Ortofon, but, the ones I am interested in are a bit more costly than what I am prepared to spend at this time.

So, I have been thinking Denon 103 or the 301 that you have chosen.

I will be using the table in conjunction with several diff. preamps as I rotate my gear.

Tom

[thebes]

Sounds like either one would be a fit, but If you go for the 103 spend the $200 from Comet for the 103R, just $20 more than the 301. Unless you are in a hurry wait awhile so I can get more playing time and get this cart past the break-in period. I'll be able to give a more honest opinion when then. Since I seldom get much chance during the week for critical listening, it should probably be two to three more weeks until I can give a full report.

Never heard the Ortofon Moving Coil, I have the Ortofon OM30 and 40 mm's, like them a lot, but the Zu Denon was for sure a step up to better sound.

[tom b. 57]

I'm certainly not in a hurry. I just get caught up in the moment when I think there may be a great deal in audio, no matter what the item is.

The sickness does not relegate itself to "just speakers".

For me, it extends to all things audio.

I can be very impulsive.

[Mike Lindsey]

Marty,

I don't recall any noise from that cart when it was the unmodified 103 or the Zu version. Maybe this started after the retip? Regardless, I still think they are a heck of a cart for the money. I've never heard the 301 but I'm guessing it too is a great cart for the money.

As you know, I'm playing a Zu 103R and I absolutely love it! As a backup I bought another 103R from Comet for $200 and am waiting for Zu to start modding them again in the next couple of months. You can send them your cart and they will do their magic for $200 plus s/h. Best money I ever spent imho...

Mike

[tom b. 57]

Sounds like either one would be a fit, but If you go for the 103 spend the $200 from Comet for the 103R, just $20 more than the 301. Unless you are in a hurry wait awhile so I can get more playing time and get this cart past the break-in period. I'll be able to give a more honest opinion when then. Since I seldom get much chance during the week for critical listening, it should probably be two to three more weeks until I can give a full report.

Never heard the Ortofon Moving Coil, I have the Ortofon OM30 and 40 mm's, like them a lot, but the Zu Denon was for sure a step up to better sound.

Thebes, are you ready to give a review and or opinion on the 301 vs 103R?

Also, just your general opinion of the 301 with a few different genres of music referenced such as, acoustical,blues, jazz and of course, classic rock.

I will probably pull the trigger on one or the other in the next couple of weeks and am just curious about your experience so far.

Tom

[jamesV]

Thebes and others,

With all this talk about the 130R and 301 I was wondering if this would be a good match for my Thorens 160 with the TP16 arm. Using the Cart/Arm Matching page from "The Analog Dept" web site it looks like the 301 would be better suited. Any help with this would be great.

The Thorens is connected to a McIntosh C28, would I need to add a step up for the MC cart? My only experience with this TT is the current cart, Shure M97xE, which of course a MM and hi output.

Thanks,

James

[thebes]

I broke it already.