jwilson55 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I have very recently picked up a set of 84 Khorns with stock drivers and AK-2 crossovers. I know the crossovers need to be upgraded because of age. I’m thinking about the ALK Universal kit. Anyone heard these? I would like to hear your opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 The Universal is a good choice, however it would be a good idea the check with ALK to see if that is the best crossover for your particular KHorn. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Your stock crossover is split -- the low pass is inside the bass bin, the high pass sits under the top hat. They are connected via the long jumpers from the binding posts. If you can solder, then buy the kit and follow the well written out instructions by Al. The instructions explain what you have to do. Al's Universal is a very popular replacement crossover. There are of course other options, including just replacing the capacitors on your existing crossover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 J.. The Universal will replace the AK-2 but I generally suggest the AP12-350 and ES5800 set to upgrade that network. The AK-2 and AK-3 networks both have extreme-slope tweeter filters already in them. The AK-4 and AK-5 do NOT. The Universal has a 18 dB / octave tweeter filter. The Universal has other advantage over the AK-2 or AK-3 but the AP12-350 and ES5800 set give you all those and a correct extreme-slope tweeter filter too. Dean is correct that the woofer filter of the AK-2 is inside the woofer hatch. The AK-3 is set up the same way. You need to open the hatch and use the cable going to the upper half of the AK-3 to run directly to the woofer driver. The cable from the amp will be moved directly to the new networks input terminals.The old input posts on the woofer hatch are no longer used. This is the case with the Universal as well. Al K. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwilson55 Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 You guys are very helpful. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVGuy Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 J.. The Universal will replace the AK-2 but I generally suggest the AP12-350 and ES5800 set to upgrade that network. The AK-2 and AK-3 networks both have extreme-slope tweeter filters already in them. The AK-4 and AK-5 do NOT. The Universal has a 18 dB / octave tweeter filter. The Universal has other advantage over the AK-2 or AK-3 but the AP12-350 and ES5800 set give you all those and a correct extreme-slope tweeter filter too. Dean is correct that the woofer filter of the AK-2 is inside the woofer hatch. The AK-3 is set up the same way. You need to open the hatch and use the cable going to the upper half of the AK-3 to run directly to the woofer driver. The cable from the amp will be moved directly to the new networks input terminals.The old input posts on the woofer hatch are no longer used. This is the case with the Universal as well. Al K. Al, I already have your Universals in my 87 Khorns replacing the AK-2 crossovers. I completely replaced the entire woofer hatch keeping the original woofer section of the crossover intact. From where I'm at now, would you recommend adding to the Universal, one of your extreme slope Woofer Squawker networks or going the route mentioned above using the AP12-350 and replacing everything? I'm using your Trachorns with K55M and the Crites tweeter BTW. Bernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Bernie, I think the biggest improvement would be in going to extreme-slope for the highs. That means the AP12 + ES5800 combination. The low crossover is secondary. There's no good way to use the Universal with the ES5800. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Obvioulsy I will not contradict Al's recommendations on his own designs but if you want validation of the ALK universals in 84 series Heritage, I can offfer a testament to them I use ALK universals in my 84LS. I built them from the kits and they are worth every penny and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafbykhorns Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I built my Universals as well but kept the woofer xover in the compartment and used the universal for the mid/high only The setup sounds great until higher outputs around 108db or more My next step is to go extreme but confused about using the AP-12-AK3 with the ES5800 I'm also using the trachorn/K55m and JBL2404 so the question is 4000 or 5800? Or what for the next designed horn (time aligned) Decisions, decisions........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I'm also using the trachorn/K55m and JBL2404 so the question is 4000 or 5800? Deifinately the 5800's.Or what for the next designed horn (time aligned) That works too.Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 "I built my Universals as well but kept the woofer xover in the compartment and used the universal for the mid/high only" This is a POOR IDEA. Yes, it works, but it's a half-way measure which provides squirly impedance to the amp.The attached plot shows the impedance varies between 5 and 10 Ohms. This isn't as bad as the stock AK-3 but there is a reactive component to the impedance that doesn't show on the simple impedance curve. It can be seen on the Smith chart or return loss plots that don't show on this particular plot. You need to replace the stuff in the woofer compartment with the AP12-AK3. What's in there now is not correct. You can feed the output of the AP12-AK3 into the bi-amp input of the universal for now. You will then have the equivalent of the AP12-AK3 + AP15-6000 combination. Later the ES5800 can replace the upper section of the Universal. Al K. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafbykhorns Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Al, I knew that was coming...... I understand schematics more so than the above explanation, do you have wiring diagram scenario's for both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 The schematic of what you have would be the same as the Universal with an additional cap (100 uF) added across the woofer and the series 1.3 mHy inductor raised to 4 mHy. This results in a 2nd order lowpass connected to a 1st order highpass (the two 24 uF). The two have different reluctance slopes. They do not cancel each other properly. It might also move the crossover frequency a bit although I didn't bother to check for that. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafbykhorns Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I understand the part I did and knew it was wrong, just too lazy to make the compartment modifications. I also replaced all the oxidized monster cable with twisted Kimber cable which also made this task more difficult. I was asking for the wiring diagram to make it right using the extreme slope on top end and gentle slope on rear. I was hoping it didnt require additional cabling and modifications to the lower wiring compartment/terminal posts. I wanted the ability to easily reverse the mods in case a better speaker came along and I needed to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Ok. Here's what you should do. It will make the equivalent of the AP12-AK3 + AP15-6000 set. On the schematic, the stuff in red is to be added, Also, move the input to the Universal network from the normal input to the "bi-amp input". I'm sure you are using the normal input or you would have destroyed the K55 already! The two 27 uF cap can be any brand you like. The 3 mHy can be of AWG 16 (which I use) or heavier. The 24 Ohm resistor can be film or wire-wound. It should be 5 or 10W That's it. I recommend anyone who has my Universal and the AK-3 network still intact inside the woofer compartment do this. A K. BTW: If you have the AK-2 network, it has 140 uF in place of the 50 + 50 uF (100 uF) of the AK-3. You must change the value to 50+50 for this mod to work properly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 When you do this mod, here's what your will get. Not only is the impedance now flat, but the filter slope is much better. For example, 100 Hz to the squawker was 15 dB down. Now it will be 25 dB! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafbykhorns Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 That slope looks good but your sketch doesnt match the universal components, what am I missing? . Above is what I have currently connected. Do you have instructions on the AP12-AK3 / ES5800 or AP15-6000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 How you have it connected is OK for what you have, but here's how to do it. IMPORTANT: DO NOT connect the input from the rig you have now to the Bi-Amp input or you will burn up something! Only connect to the Bi-amp input from the added components. Al K. EDIT. This mod seems important enough to redraw the schematic properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafbykhorns Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Al That's a good solution for AK-3 Khorn owners, thanks!!! Could this be why I'm hearing some "smearing" at higher volumes? Might be something to add to your product line! Offer as a DIY or an assembled unit, I'll be first in line if you have these parts I'm assuming one can simply remove the Universal and insert the ES5800 in its place with this mod, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 "Might be something to add to your product line!" I already to. It's the AP12-AK3 except it also has the squawker level transformer on it. "I'm assuming one can simply remove the Universal and insert the ES5800 in its place with this mod, correct" Almost. The squawker transformer you are using is on the Universal network. The ES5800 has a TWEETER attenuator instead. It feeds the mids back to the AP12 board instead which has the squawker level transformer (3619). Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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