jdm56 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Over the past couple of years, I have been patiently ripping favorites tracks from my CD collection to flac files on a pc (that also functions as a music server). Everything was going along fine and I had gotten into the R's. Then one day I decided it would be nice to have everything in my collection, not just faves, available on the server. Problem was, my collection was too big to fit it onto the 320G hard drive the pc had. So to make it work, I would have to re-rip into a lossy format. A little cipherin' brought me to the conclusion that using 320kb/s mp3 encoding would allow it all to fit comfortably. So I deleted about 91G of flac files and began to rip everything into 320kb/s mp3's. I got through the B's and was ready for the C's and had amassed over 2000 tracks already. Cool! The I listened. Well, I had already listened to samples of varying mp3 rates and to mp3 compared to wave files. I listened using good quality headphones (Sennheiser HD-580's & Bose AE2's). I decided that yes, I could reliably tell the difference between 256kb/s mp3 and wave files of the same music. But I thought the differences were insignificant. But I hadn't really listened like I listen to music. Then I did. I listened to the music, not the sound. The music was uninvolving and coarse. I would liken it to a grainy, low resolution jpeg compared to a fine, high resolution print. And it just wouldn't do. And believe me, I wanted it to do. I wanted it to be good enough, because to admit it wasn't meant scrapping the whole idea and ripping everything to flac a third time. But that is exactly what I am doing now. I'm well into the B's. I'm done with the Beach Boys and ready for the Beatles. And I am ripping more tunes this time. Instead of the top third, I'm going for the top half of my collection, more or less. Maybe before I get done, we will replace the server pc with a new, bigger Windows 7 machine and capacity will be less of an issue. The moral of the story: If you're thinking about mp3's to save space, you've got a pretty good rig and you are particular about sound quality, just don't do it. I think 256-320kb/s mp3 is fine for Walkmans and ipods, and I like Pandora at 128kb/s for background music, but the big toys need high octane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Why didn't you buy another disk drive? Disk is so cheap there is no reason to store music in a lossy compressed format. You can get a terabyte for about $120 now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 True, it is cheaper all the time; probably cheaper than I realized even. The pc I use for a server is an older machine running XP. I just don't want to put any money in it at this point. I'd rather ditch it for a new Windows 7 machine. On the other hand, I want to get as much life out of it as possible. Another factor in the decision to rip to mp3 was network considerations. I've got two boys. One plays X-Box live and the other Play station network, or whatever it's called. Then my wife is on her notebook pc upstairs and the daughter may be on the server pc doin' her thing...IOW, lot's of network traffic. I thought the smaller mp3 files might help out, although we've really not had any issues yet... Then there is the Walkman thing: I though it would be convenient to have everything in one format. I use 320kb/s mp3 on my Sony Walkman. But all of my reasoning went out the window when I decided the audio quality wasn't up to snuff. Reading over my original post, one might get the impression that I though I was the first person in the solar system to rip their CD collection to their pc. Nay, nay...I realize I'm almost always the last one to the party. I''m just sharing what's going on in dougyville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The pc I use for a server is an older machine running XP. I just don't want to put any money in it at this point. I'd rather ditch it for a new Windows 7 machine. On the other hand, I want to get as much life out of it as possible. You don't have tp put any money into the old machine. Just buy an External DIsk that plugs in with a USB. You can take the dive with you to a new computer or your music on the road. Even buying an Internal SATA disk could be trasferred to another machine very simply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmako Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I purchased a one T-Byte external to handle my music, photos and stuff that I'll want to access after my current PC croaks. I ended up reripping all of my iTunes music to Apple Lossless. It took considerable time but was well worth the effort. There is a recent thread regarding this with excellent information from some guys who REALLY know this stuff if you're interested. A few things to consider: 1. I quickly overloaded my 120 gig iPod and had to switch to manual synch to load my iPod. The lossless format takes up a significant amount of space. I had to remove quite a bit of material from the iPod. 2. If you do not own a particular disc and only have the mp3, you can still morph that recording into lossless using iTunes. This is a nice feature which I stumbled across. Open iTunes, select a song / album which is in mp3 format, highlight those songs, select Advanced Tab, select "Create Apple Lossless Format". It will convert the mp3 in just a few seconds. Pretty nifty. 3. I am using Apple Lossless just because I'm lazy, and use an iPod. There are other / better ways to skin this cat. 4. I plan on purchasing a Logitech iTouch in the near future. Having the majority of my music in Lossless will make a huge difference when I am listening on my home system, much more so than when just listening to the iPod, so this will be a huge improvement when streaming from my PC. 5. You can buy a shirt pocket sized USB 500 gig drive for less than 75 bucks. In a few months, it will probably be less than $50. Idiot proof storage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 4. I plan on purchasing a Logitech iTouch in the near future. Having the majority of my music in Lossless will make a huge difference when I am listening on my home system, much more so than when just listening to the iPod, so this will be a huge improvement when streaming from my PC. Consider buying a Squeezebox Touch. Probably the neatest gadget I have bought in 10 years. It has a digital output and I have a tube DAC connected to my SET amp / Khorn/ Altec system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Is there a question here? I have no mp3, flac only when that's the only way to get what I want, and the vast majority of my digital music assets are wav. Some are 1 bit, 2.8mhz and some are 88.2 and up...very large indeed. So what? Storage is essentially free, and very secure against loss. No use for mp3 at all. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Is there a question here? I have no mp3, flac only when that's the only way to get what I want, and the vast majority of my digital music assets are wav. Some are 1 bit, 2.8mhz and some are 88.2 and up...very large indeed. So what? Storage is essentially free, and very secure against loss. No use for mp3 at all. Dave Dave, consider using FLAC instead of WAV. I started with WAV, but the Tagging of Songs with Album name, Artist and Artwork did not work properly. I swtiched to FLAC as most users of Computer Audio have done. AAIF is another that works very well. These are both Lossless formats. I use a Squeezebox Touch for streaming to my Stereo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I decided that yes, I could reliably tell the difference between 256kb/s mp3 and wave files of the same music. But I thought the differences were insignificant. But I hadn't really listened like I listen to music. Then I did. I listened to the music, not the sound. The music was uninvolving and coarse. I would liken it to a grainy, low resolution jpeg compared to a fine, high resolution print. And it just wouldn't do. And believe me, I wanted it to... [] [] Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I started with WAV, but the Tagging of Songs with Album name, Artist and Artwork did not work properly Hmm... Only issues with that I've had didn't relate to the file type. Further, the reduction in filesize (which, given basiclly free storage space isn't an issue) is offset by not being able to burn a CD without transcoding to wav. If there is an easy (read free, no steps added) way to do that then I'd have no problem. As I said, I just say "No" to compression or proprietary filetypes (like Apple). Other than that, all I want is "easy." Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 The pc I use for a server is an older machine running XP. I just don't want to put any money in it at this point. I'd rather ditch it for a new Windows 7 machine. On the other hand, I want to get as much life out of it as possible. You don't have tp put any money into the old machine. Just buy an External DIsk that plugs in with a USB. You can take the dive with you to a new computer or your music on the road. Even buying an Internal SATA disk could be trasferred to another machine very simply. I stream wi-fi to my Squeezebox Classic. The server software is on the same pc the music is on. I think the music and server both have to be on the boot drive. I could be wrong on that count, though...I'll have to double check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I think the music and server both have to be on the boot drive. Ouch. VERY bad idea, unless you are using real time backup like Yadis or a very strong backup scheme. The question is not whether your OS will trash the system drive, but when. I don't even keep email files on a system drive nor a logical drive on the sys disc. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Dave, Here is the deal. You can convert to FLAC for Free. It is an opensource program, not propertary like Apple stuff. There is compression, but no loss. IOW - just like a ZIP file. When played it uncompresses. There is not 1 bit lost. You are correct disk is cheap, and if WAVwas able to tag Files properly, I'duse WAV. However it really screws up your music index. Before you waste a lot of your time ripping to WAV research this a bit. You'll come to same conclusion that many have. FLAC is the way to go. Or AIFF (if you trust Apple) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I stream wi-fi to my Squeezebox Classic. The server software is on the same pc the music is on. I think the music and server both have to be on the boot drive. I could be wrong on that count, though...I'll have to double check. No they do not have to be on the boot drive. I use Squeezebox Touch. You can put the folder on an external drive. It doesn't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 My digital files go back to 1998, and I just don't have any issues with file types. While use of flac is widespread and growing, it is not a "standard" file type as defined by professional audio programs such as Sound Forge, etc. Wav is still the "lingua franca" for audio files and is always supported. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 My digital files go back to 1998, and I just don't have any issues with file types. While use of flac is widespread and growing, it is not a "standard" file type as defined by professional audio programs such as Sound Forge, etc. Wav is still the "lingua franca" for audio files and is always supported. Dave File types is not the issue. File Tagging is the Issue. Trust me on this WAV is not the way to go. You will find out the 'hard' way. FLAC is a Standard. It is open source and is used by most of the 'gurus' of computer audio. If you want to use Sound Forge rip to AIFF. AIFF is perfectly Acceptable. Eventually you will have problems with WAV. I did, everyone does. It does not TAG files properly. The choices of Audiophiles are bascally AIFF or FLAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidness Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 WAV would be my last choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Guys, I am still not getting the issue. Flac and wav are both lossless, so there is no sound difference. Tagging means nothing to me...they all have track titles and m3u playlists. Flac is not supported by any of the professional audio or video editing programs I use, nor the authoring tools which generally are either wav only or ogg vorbis (have no reason why on ogg). Heck, WMP wouldn't even play them until the last year or so. I am not pushing back here as to any issues with flac...I just see no advantage to it and the time spent transcoding for common tasks would be nuisance. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I stream wi-fi to my Squeezebox Classic. The server software is on the same pc the music is on. I think the music and server both have to be on the boot drive. I could be wrong on that count, though...I'll have to double check. No they do not have to be on the boot drive. I use Squeezebox Touch. You can put the folder on an external drive. It doesn't care. I honestly did not know that. And I thought I knew everything! [] I guess I've put myself through a lot of trouble for nothing. [:S] I will definitely pursue this further!! Thanks Much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Guys, I am still not getting the issue. Flac and wav are both lossless, so there is no sound difference. Tagging means nothing to me...they all have track titles and m3u playlists. You are correct. There is no Sound Difference. The problem is Tagging. If you start using other media players or streamers, the problem will show up when you try to "manage" your music. Thius means listed by Artist,Genre, year etc. the tags are not with the song on WAV. Here is a common complaint and solution. BTW - The solution is so complex that most people forgo it and choose to re-rip their CDs to FLAC where the Metadata is handled properly. WAV Files Not tagged correctly It is stored with the song and therefore is available to any indexing solution. This may not be important to you now, but if you get a Squeezebox touch you will find your music is all screwed up is the listings.Eventually you will get a streaming device and you will discover the liabilites of the WAV format. Rip it now or Rip it Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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