SkyDover Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Some of the Al K crossover pictures I've looked at when on his website, were using Sonicaps and Solen, looks like the kind (model) I'm using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HudsonValleyNoah Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 my AL-3's were made by Bob back in the days of the GE oil can caps. Here is a picture of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodog Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I just snapped some photos (of dubious quality) of my ALK crossovers. http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r21/woodogs-world/ALK/ I love 'em. I got them in 2004 to replace my orginal AA's in my '76 khorns. I also got some Crite's crossovers for my '76 cornwalls at the pilgrimage in 2005. Amazing, immediate difference in sound. woo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HudsonValleyNoah Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I also just picked up a set of 3 Klipsch AA's that Bob upgraded to AA / A's with those same GE oil cans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Am I right in thinking that most of you guys would not agree with a statement by PWK that I only partially remember[]? It was something like [paraphrase] "As long as the capacitance is correct and the resistance within a certain range, it doesn't matter whether the capacitors are made out of __________ or _______ or ground up whisky bottles." Caps made out of whisky bottles would make quite a conversation piece. My impression is that PWK was fond of saying things like that, and also accepting (sometimes reluctantly) of points of view supported by controlled tests. He was one of those guys who talked like Issac Asimov, who once said that in looking into whether a personally assigned mantra would be better than one selected at random, one should chant "toilet tissue, toilet tissue" as a control [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HudsonValleyNoah Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Strange as it sounds, I like the sound of my Klipsch with good (new) oil can caps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyDover Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 No, that doesn't sound strange at all. I haven't tried the oil cap cans, but from what I gather from what others say between the two, I have a strong feeling that I'll prefer the caps I'm using now over the oil cap cans. Some say the oil cap cans soften the sound out a bit. I don't really like mine to be soften out, I like it crisp, clean, and detailed, down to the last drop. So it will depend on what sound-wise you prefer. Atleast I won't have to worry about them leaking as they age as I've read some complain about. Might depend on what sound you get used to first, some don't like the change, but then some do. I've been happy with the Sonicaps. If you like your sound soften out a bit, guess the oil cap cans are the way to go, but aren't they hard to get new, or is another company making them now that GE isn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Well, I might just get'em from Klipsch. PWK knew his business pretty well, and while I am sure there are those who consider aftermarket designs superior in one way or the other, I wouldn' want to void the warranty. However, as I mentioned in the original post, I suspect only certain components are subject to deterioration and I might do just as well R&R'ing them. Dave Dave, I think the AK-3 from klipsch sounds pretty darn good on k-horns and would owrk well on your 1970's version. I am happy with my early ALK x-overs but, as you stated, klipsch didnt do a very bad job with its own crossovers. Warm regards, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HudsonValleyNoah Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 ...but aren't they hard to get new, or is another company making them now that GE isn't? All of my "new" ones are GE brand from Bob before GE stopped making them. I only have the pictured AL-3's and 3 convertible A/AA's that bob made out of Klipsch AA's. All with the same GE caps... Also, I think there might be something to that "softening" thing you spoke of... I have only had good luck with the GE's on La Scalas that are still original in every (other) way. I love the sound of my K-400 aluminum horns NOW, but before the new GE cans... The La Scala just did not sound totally right to me. HONKY! No not you, the HORNS... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyDover Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Funny! That's a good one! That has me thinking since you mention this, sounds like from what I've been reading is the older heritage seems to be more dynamic and pronounced compared to the newer ones, maybe that's why it needed the oil cap cans then? If so, it seems it would benefit from the oil cap cans to make them softer/smoother? I only have the newer version, hopefully one day I will hear what an older model sounds like with the oil cap cans! Sounds like you got very lucky to get them from Bob before GE stopped making those! I'm still curious how the new oil caps sound too. I guess if another company was making them, Bob would probably be offering them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 GE sold their tooling and entire manufacturing process for the oil filled can type motor-run caps to a Chinese company. GE assured me that the caps would be exactly the same, but, instead, the quality went to sh1t. Even my brother-in-law in the heating and cooling business still complains about the caps he can get now and wishes for the good old days when GE made those motor-run caps. By the way, the price also went up about 25 percent when the Chinese started making the caps. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyDover Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Thanks for sharing the info! Wow, nothing stays in the US anymore. Shame! It worries me how much we are taking to other countries, America is going to not know how to do any anything before long! Really sad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 When I bought my 2005 La Scalas they came with the AL-4 networks. My feeling was that they were designed for "modern" habits - loud playing from solid state amps. They used a sixth order design with steep slopes and some designed-in frequency compensation. Testing them with loud levels using a Carver M500t (250W/ch) they sounded very good, smooth, made the Carver sound great. But, my preference is moderate levels using SET, and the AL-4 did not seem to have been designed with that in mind. They were a different direction... in fact, each of the AL-4 network boards had more components on them than are inside my SET mono blocks and tube preamp combined. I bought Bob's type A's with the GE motor run caps and knew within three seconds that I had found the right replacement networks - first order broad slopes, lower volume clarity, far superior match for the SET amps to my ear. I'll be interested to read what you think after sprucing up your originals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HudsonValleyNoah Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Super post pauln! HIGHLY revealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 In my humble opinion, I've found that updating the drivers will have more bang for the buck than xover changes....though if your caps are old, might as well replace them while you're at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 But, my preference is moderate levels using SET, and the AL-4 did not seem to have been designed with that in mind. They were a different direction... in fact, each of the AL-4 network boards had more components on them than are inside my SET mono blocks and tube preamp combined. I bought Bob's type A's with the GE motor run caps and knew within three seconds that I had found the right replacement networks - first order broad slopes, lower volume clarity, far superior match for the SET amps to my ear. The output levels have very little to do with what you're seeing (unless you're suggesting the xover was tweaked for a very nonlinear range of operation...which would be very very loud). The more complex networks have larger impedance swings and you're probably relying on the bass resonance in the Lascala to fatten up the low end...EQ'ing that out is gonna make a SET topology work much harder...If you want tonal accuracy with SET, then you should be looking to implement zobel circuits to swamp the loudspeaker impedance variation (which can be quite dramatic with horns). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Did you mean to say that the more complex networks present a flatter impedance? And that the simpler network has more variation, allowing the fatter bass? On looking at zobel, I find, "A Zobel is a filter used to stabilized loudspeaker impedance in a crossover-speaker circuit. This consists of a capacitor with a value equal to one which gives a crossover frequency at the frequency where the impedance has doubled, in series with a resistor which has a value equal to 1.25 times the nominal loudspeaker impedance. This is connected parallel to the loudspeaker between the loudspeaker and crossover." There are some zobel calculators that take the nominal impedance and the frequency at which the impedance doubles as inputs. If I tried this I'd need to know those two values... would the nominal impedance be considered 8 or 6 ohm? Which peak of the impedance is the one used to measure the impedance doubling frequency, and from which side? Or do you know the frequency at which the impedance doubles? The zobel seems to be a high pass filter which would skinny down the bass. Not sure if that is the way to go with La Scalas and SET... I like the sound the way it is and everywhere I look the La Scala and type A are praised as having a very easy impedance load. But a zobel is just a cap and resistor, so it would cost nothing to try. Is it just the FR that would be the benefit of a zobel in this case, flattening the stock +/-4dB down a bit? I wonder how much of that might impact the dynamics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 What was it that Heyser of Audio magazine called "admittance?" In his review of the Klipschorn he said that its admittance was no problem, so he was not including his usual admittance graph(s). That was several crossover changes ago ... I think he may have been using an AA. Do we know anything about the admittance of the AK-4 / AK -5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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