La Scala

[CB34GOLDSTAR]

New to this forum. Here is a basic intro and some questions. First, I am 57 and I have lived in Seattle for about 15 years. I have had a number of lesser Klipsch speakers and finally settled on a very good pair of La Scalas and a pair of Heresys. The heresys are no match for the La Scalas and are going on the block to pay for some Upgrades for the La Scalas and clear some space in a room way too small for the La Scalas. So I am looking for advice. From reading various things on the internet I was going to buy new and improved horns from fast audio to replace the 400 midrange. Does this seem like a good place to start? After that I am considering replacing the cross overs with ALK universals. Since I am guessing, does this sound like the most bang for the buck?

I currently use an Eico HF87 amp with a home made but very good tube preamp. The favorite CD I use for judging any component is an old Les Paul / Chet Atkins recording a double album called "Guitar Monsters". I highly recommend it to any one. Fantastic musicians and very well recorded

By the way, I make a drop in adaptor for the RCA inputs on the eico, something I consider essential. Any one looking for such a thing? With this you can use modern cables...but just barely. It is very easy to install and requires no cutting.

[Guest " "]

I wouldn't jump into a horn swap. There are different LaScala configurations and depending on the configuration the options and their priority would be different.

[KanedaK]

I own an old pair of LaScalas. I love them.

Mine came with split bass / top bins (no, it's not the factory industrial version, just the previous owner who did it). That allowed me to build new top bins around EV SM120A midrange horns and Beyma CP25 tweeters. Both were a HUGE improvement. i haven't heard the various "aftermarket" horns on offer and i'm sure they're good, but you can find the EV SM120 horns for much cheaper and they're very, very good. Problem is, they're actually wider than the rest, so the WAF sucks. The K55 driver screws into it without needing any adaptor. The Beyma CP25 tweeter is fantastic, and mirrors the dispersion pattern of the midrange horn, wich is great. It's not expensive and well worth the money.

I'm still using my original AA networks but those have seen better days and i'm waiting for a pair of ALK universal networks I just bought second hand. They're on their way and I can't wait to install them. My LaScalas sound already so damn good with the old networks, I feel like I'm gonna have a seriously good pair of loudspeakers very soon. I'm listening to all kinds of music and always felt with classical (especially big, loud chorus) they were really too harsh. I hope the new network is gonna fix this totally; it's already much better with the new horns and tweeters.

Now if you have to choose only one mod... i'll answer you after I hear what the ALK crossovers do!

I hope this helps.

François

[PrestonTom]

My honest, and sometimes unpopular, opinion is to defer the upgrades.

First spend some time getting to know your speakers. Spend a few weekends experimening by placing the speakers and chair in different locations in the room. Try different separations, toe-in and nearer to the corners etc. Then go ahead and re-fresh the caps on the crossovers. Use the same values and try some from Parts Express or Madisound. No need to spend more than $25 on caps. If you want to get fancy, then bypass the caps with a small film cap. Search the various threads for parts recommendations if you want.

Once you have gotten to know your speakers, then you need to articulate what specifically you think is lacking. Then a more systematic approach can be taken

At this point, I would not start swapping horns. There are so many different points of view on which horns, drivers etc. Not surprisingly, much (but not all) of the advice is suspect.

[KanedaK]

Of course one shouldn't "jump" in the upgrades before first spending time with his speakers. I spent 2 years changing my LaScalas position in the room, trying to find the right balance between smoothness and detail, between punch and a flat response, between speech intelligibility and a wide "image"... it was driving me nuts. I eventually ended up firing them at me for rock music and firing them parallel into the room for classical. Those K400 horns are just too beamy IMO. Especially if your living room is not the size of Texas. LaScalas are fantastic speakers, and it's totally possible to enjoy them as is, but you can turn them into something really, really WOW with a little bit care, and no need to spend big bucks for it.

It also depends on your musical taste, room size, electronics, etc... that's why a system is called... a "system".

Now it's very easy and reversible to just sit a different midrange horn on top of your LS and see what you like the most.

As far as crossover upgrades go... Klipsch changed their crossover designs themselves so many times, I feel it's not disrespect to klipsch to upgrade for an aftermarket crossover. Just choose carefully what might be the best option for you... As I said earlier, I'm hoping my new ALK crossovers will sound fantastic, and I'm almost sure they will. But there's a (very slight) possibility that the old AA will sound better in MY room with MY electronics, so i'm still a little bit anxious. I will keep you (and everybody on this forum, most likely) posted about myfeelings 'bout them.

I think what Tom says makes sense, in the way that not all upgrades are "better", and you need to know exactly what you're trying to "fix". But still, there's more to do than just putting new caps IMHO.

[CB34GOLDSTAR]

Thanks all. I have a question as to how this forum works. All replys were sent to my email and I answered them straight from my email. Now I notice that my replys were not posted on the forum. Since I want to have it posted on the forum I guess I need to reply via the forum and not through my email. Correct?

[davis419b]

That's Correct !

[Quiet_Hollow]

My honest, and sometimes unpopular, opinion is to defer the upgrades.

Agreed. And the best bang-for-the buck 2 channel addition, for the La Scala, is to Bi-amp them, in my professional opinion (no modifications required).

[CB34GOLDSTAR]

I had not even considered bi-amping. The ALK website considers it a can of worms. How do you connect a second amp? I have two mono Allen 6L6 amps, 20 watts apiece. They sound great. If I am using the Eico as the main amp how do you make all the connections? I am suddenly going far deeper into this project than I ever imagined. Thanks again for all the info

[Quiet_Hollow]

Well, it can be a can of worms if you don't fully understand what is taking place and/ or are attempting to do so with a passive x-over network in-place. I didn't suggest you try it in this in your instance. I just mentioned it, to bring to light that there are significant, non-invasive methods of extracting every drop of performance, out of the design, that don't require physically modifying them. Bi-amping can be a BIG step in that direction, for minimal outlay, with certain set-ups (like 2-channel analog). Room treatment can be another fruitful option.It's easy to consider a horn, tweeter, or network swap for a Klipsch Heritage because everything is out in the open, everyone appears to know something about their alleged shortcomings, and the candy store is brimming with product, but that doesn't mean you should. Suggest swapping out the woofers to a B&W 800 series owner, for example, and they'll ya, "Get bent!" But that type of suggestion flies rampant in the Klipsch community. Stick around here long enough and I'm sure someone might have you convinced you need a HerFLaJub-Khoru.

I am suddenly going far deeper into this project than I ever imagined.

Baby steps bro...baby steps. If it's any consolation, I've found more discrepancy in my electronics (levels, response, phasing, processing, grounding) than in any other part of my system. Impressive results, all without touching my speakers...aside from the dust cloth.

[Coytee]

I am suddenly going far deeper into this project than I ever imagined

We're here to help you....

Do a search on "JubeScala" It is not only one of the options to improve your LaScalas, it is 100% Klipsch engineered so if you end up liking the idea, all you have to do is simply acquire all the parts and plug them together (properly).

It is a 2-way biamped situation and you can use either the quite (very quite) large K402 horn as some have done or the much smaller K510 horn. Both designed by Klipsh so your speaker in the end is still a 100% Klipsch speaker and not a Frankenspeaker with brand A & B & C parts in it.

Also, you can take comfort in knowing that everything with the JubeScala has been tested in the lab at Klipsch.

There are a handful of guys who have this configuation and I'd bet would give you an audition if you were in the area (hint to post your area).

That said, I'm sure other configurations also sound great. I personally like the idea of keeping things in the family. I always get a kick when someone says "I have a pair of Klipsch LaScalas but I upgraded them with XYZ woofer, Altec midrange and a JBL tweeter with an aftermarket crossover"

Uh.... the only thing there that is Klipsch, is a box.

[Chris A]

Since I am guessing, does this sound like the most bang for the buck?

I'd try this - it's very inexpensive and has a large bang for buck.

Chris

[Quiet_Hollow]

I'd try this - it's very inexpensive and has a large bang for buck.

Technical insight regarding that specific modification of a Chorus. http://www.nutshellhifi.com/MLS/MLS3.html Results not applicable to the La Scala, but the article does a good job shedding some light on the level of component interaction when one delves into modification.

[Chris A]

Technical insight regarding that specific modification of a Chorus. http://www.nutshellhifi.com/MLS/MLS3.html Results not applicable to the La Scala, but the article does a good job shedding some light on the level of component interaction when one delves into modification.

You could almost say a Klipsch is the inverse of Quad ELS design philosophy; instead of optimizing for minimum energy storage with low mass drivers and no cabinet signature, the Klipsch is optimized for very low IM distortion and extremely wide dynamics. What's really interesting is that both sound open and fast - but technically, they do so for completely different reasons..

I'd forgotten about that website.

Just think - you could get essentially one more dimension of "transparency" from the La Scala for the price of a couple of pieces of wood (suitably varnished, etc.) and some elbow grease. This all assumes that the bass bin-midrange misalignment is not as audible as the 4.5 kHz midrange-tweeter time misalignment.

Bruce (Marvel) has attested to the dramatic increase in 3-D imaging by just physically aligning the La Scala tweeter with its midrange driver.

The effects are easily reversible to return the unit to stock condition, and you are only out the price of a couple of pieces of wood, some varnish, and some time

Chris

[CB34GOLDSTAR]

.......but it is a REALLY GOOD BOX! I understand what you are getting at. It is like restoring an old motorcycle and putting in all the modern upgrades like an electronic ignition and a modern carburetor (something that will actually meter fuel correctly), yes you have improved it but in doing so it lost some of its original character. Any ideas on why Klipsch used the k400 horn when there were so many others around? I keep hearing bad things about the horn and I notice that they bring zero dollars on ebay. There seems to be dozens of different horns on ebay. I would like to read some theory on horn building. Are the current Klipsch horns a big improvement over the first ones?

[PrestonTom]

Okay, Okay.... We still do not have any idea what you are dis-satisfied about with your La Scala. You raise the issue of swapping the K-400 horn, but what specifically do you not like about the mid-range?

Personally, if I had to rank order the problems with a La Scala, the first problem would not be the mid-horn. My strongest concern would be the lack of a deep bass.

What specifically are trying to fix?

[CB34GOLDSTAR]

I always thought the speaker was a little harsh so , after finally getting the amp dialed in which was a long process, I began to look more closely at the speaker as I have heard this complaint from many different areas. Of horns in general. So I tried the trick of taping some tissue paper across the front of the mid range horn and I believe it was a small improvement. The conclusion is that maybe this horn can be improved. Other than that I am very happy with these speakers. The tissue paper is cheap and effective but doesn't look so good. My room size is the big limitation. Also, from working with these old tube amps, Ive learned that capacitors don't live forever and there have been huge improvements in their design.

So...what to do. It sounds like I should leave the horn alone. Perhaps a grill across the front? If anything, maybe replace the capacitors and be done with it and appreciate the speaker. Is replacing capacitors a common operation? Bi amping sounds interesting but something I need to investigate. Bass is not a problem.

Speaker Type - LSBR Serial# 13R370 Do you know what year these were made?

Thanks everybody for your input, I never expected such a response.

[PrestonTom]

Sure, the R in the SN indicates 1977. The BR indicates the finish: Birch Raw.

If the caps are original you should probably refresh them. You probably have the type "A" network. Pull the capacitors and note their value. You probably have a 13uF and a 2uF. My reasonable recommendation is to check the website at either Parts Express (or Madisound etc.) for replacements. For instance you can get the Solen metal polyprop caps (they do not have a 13 but a 12 is close enough, or get a 6.2 and a 6.8 and parallel them if you are obsessive). These are about $6-7 .They will also have a 2.0 cap for about $3

If you want to go the fancy route, then bypass these caps. This means paralleling a second cap with the first. This bypass cap should be between about 1-10% the value of the "main" cap. The Dayton film/foil caps would be appropriate and are only about $1. Don't worry about the increase in capacitance when you bypass (2 caps in parallel), the increase is trivial.

At this point, don't bother replacing the other components on the crossover (inductor and autoformer) and there is no reason to pay outlandish prices for fancy caps. You should clean and tighten any of the connectors/connections while you are at it.

Honestly, in my limited experience, this is a good $25 investment if the existing caps are original. Will the sound be dramatically better? IMHO, it will be noticeable, but not earth-shaking. Although audio guys usually claim everything is "dramatic" and "removes the veil".

If you do go the next step, be cautious and skeptical regarding many of the claims being made on this forum.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Chris A]

So I tried the trick of taping some tissue paper across the front of the mid range horn and I believe it was a small improvement.

One of the more well-known-but-not-talked-about-much subjects here is the Heritage midrange horns (K-400, K-500, K-700) that all lose vertical pattern control below about 1500 Hz (due to the small vertical dimension of the horns' mouths). This produces ceiling and floor bounce from 1500 Hz down to the crossover frequency (400-500 Hz, depending on the exact horn).

If you were interested in trying another horn, you might look at the Peavey QT (Quadratic Throat) series, such as this one: http://www.directproaudio.com/product.cfm?directid=64163, A paper on the horn design is found here:

http://www.excelsior-audio.com/Publications/QTWaveguide/Hughes%20-%20A%20Generalized%20Horn%20Design%20to%20Optimize%20Directivity%20Control%20&%20Wavefront%20Curvature%20(AES107,%201999-09).pdf

This horn is said to have good coverage and control of the vertical polars ~one octave lower (to 800 Hz). The mod would require a 1"-1.6" throat adapter, raising the bass bin-midrange crossover frequency a bit, and subsequent midrange EQing to balance on-axis response.

Chris

[CB34GOLDSTAR]

OK...this seems like the best advice. Go slow and inexpensive and see what happens. I think some grill cloth will slightly soften the mid and high horns and I will be done with that. Replace the caps and enjoy. Is there a ready made grill available or do I have to make my own?

You are right about being suspicious of audio claims. I stopped reading stereo magazines years ago. It only took 3 or 4 to realize I had stepped into some deep BS.