RF-7: Quality or not?

[anarchist]

Those speakers are shipped to dealers and between dealers. Normal playing 'shouldn't' break a driver loose. Read the quotes in the first message from the guy who has worked at a Klipsch dealer for 7 years. Read the parts where the speakers show up and the parts have fallen off. Do a search on this forum and read the stories about the Legend series and their problems.

We still haven't heard from Klipsch and that is what is most interesting to me. How do they feel about customer testimonials such as those and do they have any plans to address the quality issues. Certainly, those kinds of comments don't make for good company PR.

Todd, nice price. When I bought my first set from a dealer back in 1989, the salesman actually directed me to come back and purchase the next week instead. Why? The store had regular 50% off sales on Klipsch and the salesman suggested that was the 'real' price you should be paying for Klipsch products. I have never been interested in paying more than 60% of the MSRP since. There are those that know, and those that don't. For 60% of MSRP, Klipsch IS worth every penny.

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Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

The move to separates is coming, I can feel it.

[boa12]

yea klipsch doesn't have authorized dealers that ship to customers outside of their territory IN THEORY.

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My Home Systems Page

[Marathon Man]

Crash,

Good good thread. I have been reading the replys on the topic and at first I have to tell you that I was indeed disapointed to hear what you had to say. However in the back of my mind I was pleased to know the truth. See in this hobby the truth will set you free. Its obvious that if what you are saying is true (and I think it is) that its unavoidable no matter how hard it is to hear it especially about a product that you had/have a lot of trust and respect for. Be it as it may I say if you own the speaker like I do, then deal with the truth. Thats not to say don't enjoy the product. You own em now. If it is causing you to loose sleep then you do have an option. Sell yours like Crash did, or take them back to the dealer where you purchased them (hopefully you did not buy them on the internet) im sure they will accomadate you since the speakers have been out less than a year. Most dealers have speaker trade up programs and they will be happy to sell you something else. The home audio industry has been lieing to you for years so why do you thing that this is so tragic. Remember this is all about money, and apparentlly Klipsch has found a way to produce a speaker that delivers hi end sound with not so expensive parts, and they have done a good job. This is not to say that their pricing is in line with the quality of the product. If Crash had not brought this up everyone that has read his post would have gone on thinking that the world begins and ends with the RF-7 (if you own them that is). If you think thats the end of it pop open the hood on some of that mass market gear that you are using (if it applys to you) with those RF-7's and a lot of you will be thinking the same about it also. This is one example of how this industry has lied to you all these years. lets take power ratings on receivers. (edited to not offend --> ) Some marketing person someplace found out that many people equate power rating with quality, and the industry uses this to its advantage. They know that most people don't start buying gear at hi end stores, and most people who don't just are not that informed about what they are buying. This was all of us at one time or another. Anyway they found out that if you put a product on the market and tell you it has a power output of 200 watts per channel that people will buy the product. Guess what... what they don't tell you is how they arrive at that power rating. They don't tell you that this 200 watts per channel amp or receiver is really only 80 watts with all 5 channels playing, or that the product was only rated at that output at 1Khz which means to conjure up the lower octaves that power output may drop to 50 watts per channel, because its not rated across the enire frequency band. You buy the receiver and the only thing you can tell your friends is that its 200 watts per channel, and life is good. I know that this is none of you right? Right. I bet that a good portion of people reading this post don't know how the amp section in your receiver or power amp was rated. If you found out that the receiver or amp you have is not putting out 100 watts per channel across the entire ferquency band., but more like 70 would you be mad? maybe, maybe not, but you would be informed same with the RF-7 talked about on this thread. I saw a receiver at Best Buys for $199.00 that had a power rating of 125 watts per channel. Now if you believe that receiver will perform at 125 watts per channel from 20Hz - 20 Khz then I have some beach front property in Ohio to sell you. Oh and the reference equipment WOW! The main difference between a reference power amp and a non reference 2 channel power amp is the wiring. But a good power amp is still a good power amp. Its marketing because the word reference sells gear. Did you know that out of all the pre/amps and receivers on the market that have various prices, that there are only one of three processor chips that will be inside no matter how much you pay for the piece. This is not to say that there are other variables that go into a good processor, like dac's and power supplies etc.. but the brains of a $10k pre amp could be the same brains in a $1k receiver. I could go on and on, but Im not sure how many characters you are limited to on this board.. . I don't hear crash telling you not to buy the RF-7, and he never said that the speakers don't sound good. I think I hear him saying don't let these dealers sell you the speakers for $2200.00. I think thats good advise with the info that he has uncovered. I don't think they will blow up or fall apart, but if they do then lesson learned, but Im not going to go out and replace 7 speakers in my theater because of this new insight either. that would be like spending money to save money. Try justifying that one to your wife. She will look at you like your crazy. If I had not purchased the equipment then I would think twice about closing that deal for the money they are asking, but I own the speakers now and so be it. So take this info and make sure you do your homework on your speaker purchase. Good Job Crash.

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-25-2002 at 12:16 AM

[pierceb]

This is a very interesting thread!

I totally agree with Crash's post and EARS comments. I'm was surprised/disappointed to see the build quality of my RF-7's as I did expect a bit more. I admit I was probably expecting something like Dynaudio quality for an inexpensive price. Once I realized that I shouldn't be expecting so much, I basically forgot about it - until I read this thread!

However, when I listen to them I forget about everything else. I'm very happy with them and do not intend getting rid of them, I'm sure they will last a long, long time until I can afford a pair of Dynaudios.

-PB

[anarchist]

Guys,

Now is time to really make you think. I just recently bought a set of 89 Heresys for next to nothing. These speakers are in fantastic shape, 9.5 on a 10 in my estimation, and solid. Frankly, they look far more durable and are of higher quality than RF-7's or the new Synergy line.

But how do they sound? Amazing. My wife, who did not appreciate me purchasing yet another set of speakers, sat down and listened for a few minutes and finally was impressed by sound. KG4's, ok. Rf-7's, ok. KSP400's, ok. Heresys, "those are great." We went from my 'selling them immediately' to 'we are keeping these.' For the first time ever, she was asking to hear additional songs played on these bad boys.

I love the KSP400's and love the sound of the RF-7's highs. These Heresys, however, impressed me like no other. I initially thought I am selling everything and buying old Klipsch - great quality, gorgeous cabinets, and freaking incredible music. I am greedy, however, so I will just keep it all and buy more Heritage - no new Klipsch for me...not until I see the quality I want and midrange horns instead of cones.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

The move to separates is coming, I can feel it.

[REFSELLER]

I believe Tom V of SVS owns some legend series...

Regal cinemas and Hard ROCK Cafes also use Klipsch...

I often recomend them to people whose penchant for HT and loud, agressive music requires them to beat the

p!$$ out of their speakers...

I find them to be great sounding and durable speakers.

I hold suspect the opinions of someone who lets price/msrp/used-product-vs.-new- product/how-many-drivers-do-it-have ,etc arguements cloud their ears..

I can't wait for one-ways...but please ,let's not start the 2-way/3-way arguement again.....

[T2K]

Crash, what about a rundown on build quality of the speakers you have including the KSP400's ?

Keith

[anarchist]

Hi Keith,

I have not had reason to take my speakers apart - except for replacing the passive subwoofers my cats enjoyed in the KG4's. A quick synopsis:

KSP400's. Grill is cheap and prone to breaking tips. I will be buying another. The fermica or veneer is thinner that I would like and I managed to tear back a small piece on the bottom shuffling the KSP400's around prior to putting on the wooden legs. A strip of tape resolved the issue and glue will make a permanent fix. Quite upsetting initially. They are heavy as hell and architectural beauties. Haven't looked inside but no rattles. Great value for what they cost me.

KG4's. These speakers have been through hell and the only wear they have to show for it is the formica peeling back on the base pedestals. They have been banged around, stood in a puddle of water during Andrew, and been cat scratching posts. A little MinWax and they would look good as new - save for pedestals.

KSW200. Port was loose. Port fell off. Port doesn't line up correctly. Port has piss poor glue job from factory.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

The move to separates is coming, I can feel it.

This message has been edited by crash827 on 04-26-2002 at 11:44 AM

[avman]

gotta chime in on the build quality issue.there are a number of posts about legend series speakers coming unglued(the back panel).i haven't bothered to test for cabinet resonances(sp?)like some have-not interested unless i can fix that.none of my legends have come unglued,and i push'em.KLIPSCHOG's 30's came unglued(bad batch of glue was klipsch's reason),he re-glued them,and went right back to enjoying them.i can barely find time to listen to them, but when i do-OMG!awesome sound.heavy *** speakers,real wood veneer in perfect condition.mdf is solid.maybe i'll do the dynamat/rope caulk thing to the horns one day.basically a great value in speakers,and this is how you get rock concert performance at home. love my klipsches.avman.

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1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[matthew2]

I find the quality of my RF3's very good. I don't see how the magnets would fall off. The wire is nothing special, but what speakers are for 1400CDN a pair? The only thing I have noticed, is one of the screws on the horn is not all the way in. I will fix it later.

The only thing that bothers me is the price. Not really Klipsch's fault. I live 500 miles away from any other dealer. I paied $1390.98 for my rf3's. (thats all after tax) I still think there a great deal.

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Matthew

Klipsch Rocks

[boa12]

all my klipsch including klf-30, C7s, rf-3 & rc-3 are still together fine & rockin well.

i did get into the 30s to install the buck magnets & they looked pretty well put together & glued w/ my inspection. that was about the time horned had his 30 problems so I looked pretty good. i attributed those 30 problems to a batch instead of a design/systematic problem.

i think that's the ?, is it a batch anomoly or a systematic problem?

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My Home Systems Page

[bacevedo]

This guy seems to think the RF5 build quality is as good as the Hereseys.

http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/klipschfr5/index.html

[T2K]

crash, I doubt you'll find any speaker cabinets built as solidly as the KSP's. They're as solid as concrete.

I have 4 of the straight grain West African Mahogany 300's(3 black oak,too)and the finish work is as good as it gets in the priceline.

Hope you enjoy them.

Keith

[Guest BobG]

Very interesting thread, but needs to be brought down to earth with a few facts.

"1. The baffle was attached with no fasteners at all. None. Nada. There was a half-as*ed bead of glue on the lower part where the baffle meets the cabinet. As evidence of the poor glue-job, the baffle came off without ripping the fiberboard on the cabinet or the veneer on the baffle. There was very little sealant (silicone) around the baffle to prevent air leaks."

Kipsch builds several hundred thousand speakers a year. We do it in a price/value ratio that is intended to address the vast majority of the market. When we have a failure, we are not hesitant to admit it- as in the case of our glue problems with some Legend series models. This bulletin board provides much greater opportunity for comment than is available to the customers of most consumer brands and we hear it when we fail. That's good, we want to know. The construction techniques we choose are all selected to maximize value and provide top performance for the price. The Heresy's that Crash827 now loves use virtually identical construction techniques as do the RF-7's.

"2. The bracing in the cabinet was minimal with a 3/4" brace about 2" long in each corner (as I recall) and a center arched bracing made of the same fiberboard."

The cabinet bracing employed in the RF-7 and in the majority of Klipsch models is not designed to deliver a cabinet that is completely non-resonant. The techniques are well known but 99.9% of our customers would not be willing to pay the increas in price for the resulting increase in performance. How many of you have carbon/ceramic brakes on your vehicle? They are better than the standard metal parts and might even save your life! Oh yeah, they cost a bunch more...

"3. The much tauted "Monster" cable inside was laughable. It was average 18 gauge twisted copper cable. The crimp connectors were loosely connected to the drivers and would be prone to falling off with much jarring."

Bigger wire is not necessarily better wire. The Z series Monster Cable used internally on Reference Series is highly engineered for the task. Making it better Looking has nothing to do with making it better Sounding. The crimp connectors would be nice to replace with silver solder but that is not possible at these production quantities and price.

"4. The damping in the cabinet did not appear to be uniform between the two speakers. It's as if someone folded some carpet padding and stuffed wherever it fit. I would think it possible for some of the padding to get in the way of the airflow to the port."

The damping material is not critical regarding placement in the cabinet. The amount of material and choice of material is important.

"5. The feet were cheap plastic that appeared to be made by Hasbro. My set didn't come with carpet spikes and I don't know if they are available, but I hope they are better than the feet."

Want nice metal feet? Want to pay for them? I doubt it, especially when it would not make an audible change in the output. The plastic used was chosen for very specific performance attributes.

"6. The veneer is the sort of veneer you would find on any low-fi or mid-fi speaker in the market. Not terrible, but nothing to brag about."

Don't see too many wood veneer speakers in the "low-fi" market. The veneer enhances the beauty of the speaker and will never be a problem unless you do something inappropriate. Not meant to allow you to sand it down etc. It's the same thickness used on quality furniture.

Interesting that little was said about the driver content or the sound of the speakers. Klipsch packs more content into the parts that count than our key competitors. Bigger magnets, better cone and dome materials, crossover components etc. Who else in the price range is using a quality, branded wire? Anybody?? Anybody? Who else gives you the benefits of horn loading (a more expensive technology)? Anybody?? Anybody?? Who else provides the efficiency, dynamic range or emotional impact anywhere near the price? Anybody??

I fear Crash has a distorted perspective of price. It's great he's been able to buy KSP-400's and Heresy's at a deep discount via the used market. I also think it's great that he buys at 60% off. But offering that buying advice is simply bad advice. Doesn't fly.

Ultimately, you get what you pay for. Want rock solid cabinets with veneer that's twice as thick as Klipsch? It's out there, but not at anywhere near the price of Klipsch. Want solid metal feet and grilles you cannot break with a pliers? That may be out there as well, I don't know. I do know that if you compare Klipsch to similarly priced brands, we offer more sound for the money. We are quite comfortable with that and so are the hundreds of thousands of customers who buy our products every year. That is why we are second in the US market and the envy of most competitors. Are we perfect, no way no how, but we don't have much to say in response to paranoia and ranting. Sorry for that harsh characterization but it's true.

[avman]

...and if speaker sales volume was based on sound quality-instead of marketing $'s invested on a generally uninformed public's opinion,(b-se),you guys would be number 1 ,like in MY book!!keep up the good work! avman.

------------------

1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[bacevedo]

Good post BobG - I couldn't agree with you more.

People want BMW quality on a Honda budget. I think Klipsch makes great products for the price. If you want better build quality, then you better want to pay for it.

Bryan

[pierceb]

Thanks for your comments BoBG! Good to see your listening.

I basically realized everything you said about construction of these in the first hour I had them then I left it alone. I just decided to take to covers off, look at the pretty copper cones, and let them sign!

I quite like my RF-7's, thanks for providing a product that I could actually afford and enjoy! I must say that it has been quite interesting to hear everyone's comments on this.

-PB

[TheEAR]

Give me a break nobody will get Dynaudio Contour quality for the R series price,unless its stolen goods.Wake up,you will not get Wilson Audio built quality for the price of a Dynaudio Contour.Wake up

$2200 at full retail is NOT much for a pair of large floor standing speakers.What did you think you would get? Dynaudio Confodence 5 sound quality? Get real not a FAT chance in hell.Dynaudio quality drivers? Not a fatter chance

Its like the jolly peep complaining his poor sucker reciever does not have Krell or Celeste MOON quality amp section.Well DUH recievers(pick any)amp sections are like a a Fischer Price toy compared to Krell.Like it or not.Yeah I love the brag factor a large Krell has(he).

Bottom line is the RF-7's are a great value,and built quality is A ok considering the asking price.Dont compare Klipsch R series build quality to mass marker junk.To say Klipsch R series built quality is the same would be a gross lie.A lie and nothing more

You dont get a BMW M5 for the price of a Toyota Camry.Unless its a very used and abused gangster car.

LOL

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TheEAR]

Crash827,

"Will you personally guarantee that with funding to back it up?"

Will I? Not a fat chance I will

Its up to Klipsch to give you this guarantee,not me.

I can only state what I think is right,in my view.Again if any speaker falls apart the owner must take pics and post them ALL over the net to humiliate the maker.I have no pitty for low quality audio gear.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Number.One.Dad]

My friend has a pair of Klipsch Horns that BLEW ME AWAY when I was 21. He bought them quite used. TWENTY FOUR years later, he still has those speakers.

The woofers have "popped" out of the speakers three times, sometimes landing as much as 5 feet away! They were at FULL volume each time. Guess what, each time he glues them back in and CRANKS EM UP and the SAME drivers, wood, wire, etc. that came with the speakers just keeps on cruisin!

Now I finally have enough money to go with the Reference series and no, not at retail. Everyone knows what MSRP is and if you want to pay that for killer dealer support or something, that's great...

Anyway, the sound is simply incredible. Bose fanatics simply slink away quietly, wallowing in their misery of paying more for less. Doesn't even come close!

Glue is cheap and I have plenty in the garage. If my Reference speakers come apart anytime in the next 24 years... GUESS WHAT I'LL DO!!!!! GLUE'EM AND CRANK'EM!!!!

I'm very glad Klipsch kept what's important- SOUND!