Does Klipsch heritages need subwoofer?

[chuckears]

Even though you seem to have received all of the replies you need to make your decision, I would like to add my own experience to contribute to the "Yes, you do!" camp:

I ran my Fortes for about 10 years with no sub, and enjoyed them pretty well... the Forte have the lowest rated bass of the Klipsch speakers, digging down to 32 Hz (although the might K-Horn actually sounds lower to my ears - it's all in the dynamics and room acoustics).

I had two epiphanies when I began to upgrade in the late 90's: I was able to generate a much deeper bass slam from the Fortes by changing from a Carver 120 wpc amp to the McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe (185 wpc). The other was when I worked a sub into the mix - one that truly went down to just below 20 Hz. I went from enjoying listening to music in my living room to seemingly being transported to the recording venue. Musical tones rely not only on harmonics generated by the physcial properties of the instrument itself, but on what the sound does in the room/venue in which it is recorded. There were times on certain well-recorded material when I could not only locate the instruments in a virtual 3-dimensions, but also imagine the size and shape of the room - it was as if I were actually there when the material was being recorded. That's what a sub did for me - and I wouldn't bother with one that cuts off in the 30's... you need one that digs down into the low 20 hz range, or down into the teens, if you intend to enjoy a lot of film material.

[Jsaint]

Sub, yes. Retail, no.

Go DIY, lots of help avail at Home Theater Shack, sealed or ported musical or Home Theater boom DIY is the way to go literally the best bang for the buck.

There are many proven designs and you will get exactly what you want if you ask questions. The best part is you can save shipping by building the box at home, considering where you are shipping could be the cost of a very nice subwoofer making DIY look even better.

[Islander]

I had two epiphanies when I began to upgrade in the late 90's: I was able to generate a much deeper bass slam from the Fortes by changing from a Carver 120 wpc amp to the McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe (185 wpc). The other was when I worked a sub into the mix - one that truly went down to just below 20 Hz. I went from enjoying listening to music in my living room to seemingly being transported to the recording venue. Musical tones rely not only on harmonics generated by the physcial properties of the instrument itself, but on what the sound does in the room/venue in which it is recorded. There were times on certain well-recorded material when I could not only locate the instruments in a virtual 3-dimensions, but also imagine the size and shape of the room - it was as if I were actually there when the material was being recorded. That's what a sub did for me - and I wouldn't bother with one that cuts off in the 30's... you need one that digs down into the low 20 hz range, or down into the teens, if you intend to enjoy a lot of film material.

Some of the hi-fi purist/snob reviewers have come to the same conclusion. For years, they said subwooofers were for home theatres, but not for serious music listening. However, once they tried properly integrated subs, they could hear effects into the midrange, plus the low-frequency, low-level, sounds that would give the listener the audio cues about the size and shape of the performance space.

A good sub can add to the realism of the listening experience with all kinds of music, not just the bass-heavy stuff.

[garyrc]

but do keep in mind that there are not that many subs in the market which can keep up with the heritage

Yes indeed! With speakers as efficient as La Scalas, some subs would have a problem matching them. I have a Klipsch RSW15 sub with my Klipschorns and Belle center, and the volume control on the side of the RSW needs to be all the way up if the prepro sub level control is set on zero. I could have set the prepro sub channel 12 dB louder, but that would have been the limit -- the prepro volume would have been all the way up. . Many of the subs on the market are meant to match speakers that are more than 12 dB less efficient than my Khorns or your La Scalas (i.e.,speakers with a sensitivity of less than 93 dB -- most speakers), so you might not be able to turn up those subs far enough to match the La Scalas.. I'm not sure this is a valid way to attempt to see if a given sub would be a good match, but the amp in the active sub you mentioned is not all that big, nor does the sub have much bass extention. I'd shoot for a beefier sub, even If I had to wait to afford it.

[Chris A]

I had two epiphanies...The other was when I worked a sub into the mix - one that truly went down to just below 20 Hz. I went from enjoying listening to music in my living room to seemingly being transported to the recording venue. Musical tones rely not only on harmonics generated by the physical properties of the instrument itself, but on what the sound does in the room/venue in which it is recorded. There were times on certain well-recorded material when I could not only locate the instruments in a virtual 3-dimensions, but also imagine the size and shape of the room - it was as if I were actually there when the material was being recorded. That's what a sub did for me - and I wouldn't bother with one that cuts off in the 30's... you need one that digs down into the low 20 Hz range...

This has been my experience, also.

If you are using a fully horn-loaded speaker such as a La Scala, Belle, Khorn, MWM, or Jubilee, I'd add one more observation: you'll be much happier using a horn-loaded subwoofer that meets a FR of ~20 Hz up to your main speakers' "f3" or horn cutoff frequency:

~40 Hz for the Khorn and Jubilee,

~55 Hz for the MWM,

~95 Hz for the La Scala and Belle

Most of the subs able to do this are DIY subs of two basic designs: conventional horn-loaded subs (like the Bill Fitzmaurice designs), and tapped horn subs (like the Tom Danley designs). Both have plans available online, Danley sells ready-made DTS-10 kits for a reasonable price (through August of this year). For DIY, you'll need a table saw, some clamps, drill, glue, and LF drivers.

These subs really don't take a lot of power to drive relative to direct-radiating subs trying to put out the same amount of SPL, and they integrate seamlessly with the aforementioned speakers.

Chris

[Chris A]

FYI--just a follow-up discussion on the preceding: note that there has been a fair amount of wide-of-the-mark information regarding tapped horn subs.

Tapped horn subs have an extremely small form factor relative to an equivalent conventional horn-loaded sub design. In terms of relative output of a tapped horn sub to a conventional horn-loaded sub, you get ~3 dB more SPL (or sensitivity) out of a tapped horn design since you are in effect using the "backwave" of the driver--SPL energy that is usually dissipated into heat within a conventional horn with its acoustic suspension driver (e.g., like the horn-loaded speakers identified above).

Note that using a "ported" horn-loaded sub to recover the driver backwave energy isn't the same thing as a tapped horn sub, The tapped design uses the relative phasing of the frontwave and backwave output to smooth the overall response of the sub, and the tapped horn design has one horn mouth - not two like a ported horn design. That second "mouth" (i.e., the port or slot) of the ported design isn't horn-loaded, so there is an impedance mismatch loss that occurs with the port relative to the room's expansion, just like direct radiator losses. Note that tapped horn designs require the use of advanced design tools to arrive at useful design configurations (such as AKABAK or Hornresp). The Danley designs have been carefully balanced to achieve smooth response, low cutoff frequency, and high sensitivity with their small enclosure size. Those tapped horn designs are also easy to locate along a wall or in a corner-quite unlike conventional horn-loaded sub designs that I've seen.

The difference between a tapped horn and a conventional horn shows up in what is called "mouth bounce": tapped horn subs will have more mouth bounce peaks than a conventional horn, but those added bounce ghost pulses will be way down in magnitude relative to the longer duration pulses from the full length of the horn due to the closer relative position of the backwave driver face to the horn's mouth. You can see these peaks using the Hornresp program to predict the transient response of Danley tapped horn sub designs. That is why a little "stuffing" is used in the DTS-10 and other Danley tapped horns.

Chris